Do you think producers who use loops are lazy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter odinnshred
  • Start date Start date
yea, but if you're just using loops.. it can't hurt to learn some music theory and to use more (individual note) midi tracks in your songs

conversely,
if you're not using any sampling (from loops to individual midi notes)...
it can't hurt to learn how to use them to your advantage

Don't put yourself in a box either way

It's always good to expand your knowledge and capabilities
 
I think the definition of a loop has been glossed over. I think the op was referring to longer more complete musical phrases. Bongo licks and brief guitar chords require greater skill to synthesise into a bigger picture than a soul sample with added drums and a dash of extra schmaltz. I'd venture to say that most musicians in fact call on musical cells (this is what I understand loops to be in your examples)in composition. Think of the funk guitarist who uses the wah wah pedal with that distinctive syncope or even the jazz pianist with the II V I turnaround. These are all effectively musical cells/loops stored in the musicians fingers.

Noone however would deny that it takes more skill to start with a handful of notes and build a symphony than it is to begin with those notes arranged into ready made structure. Having said that however both do require a different skillset so it isnt beyond the realms to suggest that purists could struggle to make sample based music and vice versa
 
well said zed
seeing as you have knowledge of the II - V - I
I'm guessing you've taken music theory in either college or university

kudos for still being open minded even while having that knowledge.
the II-V-I is extremely useful I like to do variations of it and forget about the II while retaining the V-I resolution
It works well when you use a chord to replace the II that shares some of the same tones.
like a IV-V-I for example
---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------

well, I just got trashed because I use software by a guy who uses nothing but audio loops (while I'm writing every individual note and not using any loops) on twitter
so the judgmental people are on both sides.
in fact, if you do use strait MIDI you're less likely to get any respect in this industry
Just look at how many of us are popular versus them so I think we should talk about this from the other side to.

Is using software/individual MIDI notes anything to look down on (especially when you're writing your own tracks)?

I sure don't think so

I would have liked to blast the guy back, but I choose to be better than that

What do you guys think?

Is using software and writing your music with individual MIDI notes anything to disrespect?
 
Last edited:
tempestmichael said:
well said zed
seeing as you have knowledge of the II - V - I
I'm guessing you've taken music theory in either college or university

kudos for still being open minded even while having that knowledge.
the II-V-I is extremely useful I like to do variations of it and forget about the II while retaining the V-I resolution
It works well when you use a chord to replace the II that shares some of the same tones.
like a IV-V-I for example
---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------

well, I just got trashed because I use software by a guy who uses nothing but audio loops (while I'm writing every individual note and not using any loops) on twitter
so the judgmental people are on both sides.
in fact, if you do use strait MIDI you're less likely to get any respect in this industry
Just look at how many of us are popular versus them so I think we should talk about this from the other side to.

Is using software/individual MIDI notes anything to look down on (especially when you're writing your own tracks)?

I sure don't think so

I would have liked to blast the guy back, but I choose to be better than that

What do you guys think?

Is using software and writing your music with individual MIDI notes anything to disrespect?
Click to expand...


Cheers geez. Funnily enough theres a thread on exactly that futureproducers.com/forums/production-techniques/theory-composing-sound-design/neo-soul-chords-scales-progressions-366480/2/#post49490085 Last few posts start to really get stuck in. Tritone subs and such. Think you'll dig it man.

To add to the whole loopy business. Take a leaf out of flying lotus ~(or inded any other producer's) book. On cosmogramma and beyond he employs the talents of thundercat on bass. Thundercat himself is left to his own devices. Flylo doesnt coach him or interfere in the creative process, just lets the man strap up and go mach speed. Whats the difference between that and using an instrumental loop?
 
At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether the producer is lazy or not, a hit record is a hit record, the artist or the people buying this record that they like don't care how it was made as long as it sounds good.
 
You do not know the power of the Amen Break.

---------- Post added at 05:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 AM ----------
thebsofd said:
You do not know the power of the Amen Break.
Click to expand...

however theres a great video on it on youtube, explaining the most important 6 second drum loops in history. Hip Hop, Drum and Bass, Breakbeats... all thanks to this loop.
 
Sometimes a loop works perfect, sometimes you gotta do a little chop chop to add some flavor.
 
Loop Usage.

I remember when I was a kid and my mother and her sisters were discussing a cake one of them had made. My mother's response was, "Did you make it from scratch?" The reply was, "No, it came from a box." In as little as 5 years that question was no longer asked, and the "box" approach was just assumed under most circumstances and no longer fround upon in the slightest.

Times change, approaches change. Does the "box" taste the same? Well.... no, not really. But it saves a lot of precious time now doesn't it?
 
As artists we shouldnt be looking to make hit records or save time. The issue at stake should be artistic integrity. Some seem to be endorsing basically taking fully formed compositions and adding a beat and adding a name tag. If you're in the game for the sheer love of the game then such an approach is fine but if its for the sake of the music that constitutes a violation of one's artistic integrity.

Ive noticed that producers such as Nujabes and Joachim are guilty of this. Im commiting a deadly sin when I say this I know but some of Nujabes music is quite literally a soul sample with a drum loop added. Flowers is an exception and there are many others, but he relies on the obscurity of his samples in a number of cases. He is a talented musician and im not profaning the man's good name but making an objective observation.

Its a question of extent. Are you just dashing 20second loops on a timeline and adding a 3minute loop or are you using a recombinant approach, taking diverse samples and creating something greater than the sum of its parts. The thread has alot of overlap with the sampling debate.
 
Last edited:
zedsupreme,

I agree with you in regards to artistic integrity. There is an awfully large scope to this debate. As clear as the plagarism laws are, there is always a new generation of upstarts that haven't learned them. Are goal as artists is to build upon what has gone before us and to expand the medium of expression. But, I do beleave we should have tolarence for those who go about it a different way than we do... but only to a point.
 
e49675 said:
zedsupreme,

I agree with you in regards to artistic integrity. There is an awfully large scope to this debate. As clear as the plagarism laws are, there is always a new generation of upstarts that haven't learned them. Are goal as artists is to build upon what has gone before us and to expand the medium of expression. But, I do beleave we should have tolarence for those who go about it a different way than we do... but only to a point.
Click to expand...
But what gives us that right if we're talking about pop music? I agree that this is big discussion, as there are diff levels to loops as well as samples. Some cats are master samplers, where if u heard the sample song it would be hard to tell where the sample came from, but if u hear the original it just might be 2 sec chop, which I think is an art. Before hip-hop got big, many old heads and musicians looked down on it because they didn't think it was real music. Now nobody says its not music. In fact, big name producers like Dre and Ye can afford to bring session musicians to play live instruments to their ideas that they have gotten from a old tune.
There was time when older jazz musicians looked down upon what was known as fusion and the integration of electronic instruments in the genre. In hindsight, the people that were part of this were visionaries. In fact, many modern jazz musicians, hate being labeled as just a jazz musician because the impression is that you not use non-traditional instruments and music should sound like post-be-bop some claim.
My point is that if your talking about what u hear on the radio (pop music), people (especially record execs) could care less how the tune is made if its catchy. I think people underestimate the importance of the ear and how certain people really have feel for music regardless of formal training. Some 15 yr kid is probably out there right now with a laptop (young chop comes to mind) and FL about to make the next big record it might not be complex and the guy might use loops, but all that matters is that it sells. Also, you have respect how much time that kid might put in (hours on that laptop) trying to make a dope beat( its no different than you or me sheddin for yrs on our instruments).
Again, I'm not talking about genres where musicians still occupy a primary role.
I just think there a little bit of hate undertone (I studied at the conservatory for x number of years, and here is this kid with a computer is making more money than me). Just because you're formally trained doesn't mean you can make good music.
rant off:sigh:
 
deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup said:
^^^So a more talented chef has to grow his own vegtables and raise his own livestock, right? Even if his food isn't as good as the guy who buys his from the supermarket, he's more talented because he grew everytrhing? Oh, that's right, let's stick to your example.

So...a chef who makes everything from scratch who's cake tastes like it's missing something, is overall ameteurist at best, and taste's worse than a cake made from a box and prepackaged icing is still more talented than a chef who's capable of doing the same(more than likely does a better job than the guy just boasting about making everything from scratch who's cake is horrible), but knows that if he takes a box of betty crocker and adds a few of his own ingredients to the mix and uses his own from scratch icing, consumers(who don't give a f**k about anything but the taste)will call him a genius and flood his bakery for his cakes that are time and cost effective while still being very distinguishable as professionally made because of the elements he put into the final product. Mind you this same said chef CAN if requested make a BETTER cake mix from scratch...but it would take resources that aren't always available to him(live instruments, million dolar studio)like that box of cake is(Reason, FL, Ableton, ect. and a few loop sounds mixed in with from scratch stuff to add realism).

Logic has escaped and is running loose right now.

Don't you think for that second beat I posted I coulda just loaded a good bongo patch and played out something almost identical? I coulda even added the right variants in velocity to make it sound just as convincing. Hell, it's just bongos, I coulda ran to guitar center, bought a set, mic'd it up, recorded that, maybe even something better...coulda called in a professional bongo player...but WTF for? That beat is still completely royalty free, and anyone with reason has those same bongos(factory rex loop)yet i've never heard them used identically in a song? Go figure...they're just f**kin bongos, how does that take away from every other element I had complete control over in the song? Especially when the final product is good?
Click to expand...

You make a valid point but being a cook doesn't have anything to do with growing your own food. And I yield because there is absolutely no way one can state that looping is cheating when sampling can be seen in the same light. I mean am I any different than a looper if I got my synths from a vst preset? I mean yeah I altered the sound but I didn't generate it like person who made it. I pieced every sound I ever used together but I didn't record any of them. So in the end I guess its to each his own good people. To each his own. :-)
 
Ok if your talking about "Producers" on the wink sound youtube channel sit the **** down!!

Pretty sure those dudes aint trying to make it bigtime or even get some placements of sorts.

So if they are the only ones doing that **** it & if its just a tutorial who cares, its just a tutorial, they are just trying to teach you something other than how to make a drum loop, now if they are teaching you how to make a drum loop then **** them and their prime sounds loop.
 
this is a pointless convo! you could use one shot kits or use a drum break and the end product you may not even be able to tell! which method you have used. its all about the end result! like you said

peace!!!
 
acetheface954 said:
You make a valid point but being a cook doesn't have anything to do with growing your own food. And I yield because there is absolutely no way one can state that looping is cheating when sampling can be seen in the same light. I mean am I any different than a looper if I got my synths from a vst preset? I mean yeah I altered the sound but I didn't generate it like person who made it. I pieced every sound I ever used together but I didn't record any of them. So in the end I guess its to each his own good people. To each his own. :-)
Click to expand...

Being a cook absolutely has to do with the creation process. Some cooks will look down at others because they didn't drive miles to a farmer they know personally for free roaming livestock they watched grow from the time it was a calf and cared for(true story), some will look down if you use a stick of butter rather than churning your own(true story), I purposely added to your analogy and even ended my paragraph with "Oh, that's right, let's stick to YOUR example".

The point of that was, for a "from scratch" computer based musician to downplay the validity of another musician on nothing but the fact they use loops, a "from scratch" workstation keyboard producer could say the same of your for using a computer. A "from scratch" live instrumentalist can say the same of the workstation keyboard producer, a guy who actually built his instrument can say the same of someone who bought theres.

There will always be someone thinking their doing more, but if the final product isn't better than the next man's, that's the only measuring stick that matters outside of the elitist circle of guys ultimately all doing the same while trying to validate their presence.

I've never met a chef who looks down on people who use stick butter because he churns his own who actually makes better food than most. It's always the guys who have no other stand out qualities who focus on such trivial things. "Eat this meal, i churned the butter myself" would only come from the mouth of a chef who's food has no wow factor beyond the fact he churned the butter himself.
 
deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup said:
There will always be someone thinking their doing more, but if the final product isn't better than the next man's, that's the only measuring stick that matters outside of the elitist circle of guys ultimately all doing the same while trying to validate their presence.
Click to expand...

Again man I can't deny that you're right. Lets look at people who talk down on producers who use DAWs making accusations about it not being "real music". Why isn't real? Because you can't see any instruments? Get out of here. Lol
 
Just a general discussion question...

Do we consider J.R. Rotem a "less talented" producer, because while he can play and has made many songs from scratch...most of his biggest hits contain samples and elements of other songs? Or is it just he's smart enough to recognize he needed those other elements to make hits?

Is he less talented than Kanye West nowadays since Kanye turned in his sampler for a team of keyboardists?

J.R. can still play keys better than Kanye...Kanye still has more hits... how do we judge when J.R. still samples and Kanye can just pay others to make what he hears in his ear reality.

Kanye's works are made of more "original material" without him playing it, but dictating it. Where is the line drawn? Who's the talented one.

I'll bring Timbo and Dre into the discussion later...then maybe jump to pop or rock production. Was "bittersweet symphony" a talentless song because even though everything was played and written by the verve, they inadvertantly ripped off a rolling stones song that was locked away in the back of their head they didn't realize they were using elements of? Would it have been more or less talented to have known they were using it, sample it, and get permission?

I just wonder how people think on topics like this, because in the end, isn't it how good the music is that matters?
 
acetheface954


Not that I'm on the side judging people,
but I have to say you made one error.

Sampling individual notes is in no way the same as using loops.
They are judged by other more pretentious musicians the same way,
but in practice they are apples and oranges.

The people sampling individual notes are doing almost the exact same thing that a guy writing sheet music is doing,
only that Midi is a more strait forward, simplified system.

I used to write in sheet music decades ago before I discovered Midi so I know this to be the case.

In fact, they are so similar that you can directly translate Midi in sheet music and vice versa.


So, they may be judged the same, but they are two different things.

Someone using nothing but loops is not writing any music. They don't need to know music theory or any of that to mix loops together. (remember I'm not judging just stating the facts)
while someone using individual note samples is writing the song note by note exactly the same way someone writing sheet music would only with Midi.

This is a huge difference.

No matter what side of the debate you're on,
this is undeniable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top