Do you think producers who use loops are lazy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter odinnshred
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i have no problem with loops. sometimes the loop is too dope to chop, most of the time chopping sounds better though IMO. all i care about is the finished product when it comes to other producers, however, to myself i feel like i'm getting over on people if i loop too much. i still do it sometimes though.
 
Mikey Angelo said:
There are several instruments I can't play or manipulate my fingers to play out...like th guitar...I invested lots of money into guitar and string loops.nobody can tell...now using whole construction kits.....well if all you use is construction kits how can u call yourself a producer
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Good idea. What I do is try to mimic and dissect the loop's rhythm and make a loop of my own by sequencing it out to my best ability. Its a great way of learning how something is mapped out in a sequencer.

Arthur_D's sets on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
 
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I TMy ultimate goal for any comp. is to build everything from the grassroots up. Im even tentatively looking into max (programming language) to give me almost total control over tthe process beginning to end. Problem with alot of "modern music" is the use of prior material (in the public domain naturally) to sidestep actually engaging with any musical process.
The consequence of that is that alot of mainstream music sounds plucked straight from the production line. Its a musical brave new world where tunes are generated chemically rather than creatively.

Maybe im just ponitifcating though, perhaps its just an issue of HOW you use the loop, Lines are fine anyways.
 
of zedsupreme said:
I TMy ultimate goal for any comp. is to build everything from the grassroots up. Im even tentatively looking into max (programming language) to give me almost total control over tthe process beginning to end. Problem with alot of "modern music" is the use of prior material (in the public domain naturally) to sidestep actually engaging with any musical process.
The consequence of that is that alot of mainstream music sounds plucked straight from the production line. Its a musical brave new world where tunes are generated chemically rather than creatively.

Maybe im just ponitifcating though, perhaps its just an issue of HOW you use the loop, Lines are fine anyways.
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The everyday person doesn't have the time to make magic every second anymore. And it doesn't stop at music either. Because with so much competition you just have to cut corners unless you are very well established. But hell even they cut corners and especially on a deadline. Some time ago a pro mixer on here stated he has left distortion in some of his work because he had to beat the clock. On youtube a world renowned producer/DJ admitted to using loops just to get started. But of course these guys are smart enough to mask their little debacles which is cool to me. But in the end, to each his own.

http://www.soundcloud.com/arthurd
 
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well,

to be fair (even though I'm against using loops all together myself)

I think that it's lazy to use nothing but loops
and I wouldn't even call that songwriting

In fact, I have no respect for that
but if you use like 1 or 2 per song
then it's okay

You really shouldn't have to though.

writing a beat with MIDI is not hard.

I guess if you didn't have any drum patches that you like
you'd have no other choice but to use loops other than spending a bunch of money to upgrade,
but long story short
it's better to write your own.

there's also nothing wrong with using a loop to cut out a high hat sound you like better than the MIDI samples you have or something,
because sometimes audio just sounds better and it's basically the same thing when you're cutting them down to individual notes.
 
tempestmichael said:
well,

to be fair (even though I'm against using loops all together myself)

I think that it's lazy to use nothing but loops
and I wouldn't even call that songwriting

In fact, I have no respect for that
but if you use like 1 or 2 per song
then it's okay

You really shouldn't have to though.

writing a beat with MIDI is not hard.

I guess if you didn't have any drum patches that you like
you'd have no other choice but to use loops other than spending a bunch of money to upgrade,
but long story short
it's better to write your own.

there's also nothing wrong with using a loop to cut out a high hat sound you like better than the MIDI samples you have or something,
because sometimes audio just sounds better and it's basically the same thing when you're cutting them down to individual notes.
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I can definitely agree with you. If looping is all you do then you're just cheating yourself. I mean really how hard is it to sequence out your own sounds? Went on beatport and saw all these fabricated production packs at dirt cheap prices. Why would I buy something outside of vocals that everyone else is using? They must really need help producing.
 
acetheface954 said:
I can definitely agree with you. If looping is all you do then you're just cheating yourself. I mean really how hard is it to sequence out your own sounds? Went on beatport and saw all these fabricated production packs at dirt cheap prices. Why would I buy something outside of vocals that everyone else is using? They must really need help producing.
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yea man,
and if anyone doesn't know the basics enough to know how to write a chorus/verse/bridge/etc
there are people like us who are more than willing to explain it
 
tempestmichael said:
yea man,
and if anyone doesn't know the basics enough to know how to write a chorus/verse/bridge/etc
there are people like us who are more than willing to explain it
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I can understand EQing issues and all that technical stuff being challenging. But grasping the concept of four on the floor, verse chorus bridge verse, kick snare kick kick snare then you need to really do some aggressive music listening.
 
Loops

Use loops at your own discretion. Of course it will always be better if the listener doesn't know you did not create the original riff, but hey, they are royalty free... So why not? Reasonable prices and high quality sounds tell me the winning side is a steadily growing industry!
 
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I hope anyone in this thread saying using loops takes less talent has a real lead and bass guitar, a few bowed instruments, and a few live percussion instruments sitting around their studio...if not, have some really good sample libraries, I mean the 500gb orchestras and 20gb drum/perc kits with the 50gb bass modules.

If not, you're cheating yourself and your music.

I noticed not too many actual links to music in this thread.

I'll give an example of how loops can be used. Not the best beat in the world, a lil dated now, but....

SoundClick artist: Phuk'dup Beats - Can't think of anything cool to type here.

Everything in this beat was played EXCEPT the arp synth that just happened to fit(that was indeed a loop) and the underlying wah guitars that were cut out of a loop and rearranged to add a lil soul. The main clap/snare was also cut out of a loop. I coulda left those elements out, used something "from scratch" in their place if i wanted a beat making merit badge...but that's the point, i'm more worried about completing my sound than "how much of my talent(that I still have, don't have to overextend every song) was used".

SoundClick artist: Phuk'dup Beats - Can't think of anything cool to type here.

^^^Everything in that on was played except the bongos(a loop) on the chorus. So I guess I need to take them out to be "more talented", right? Doesn't make sense.
 
deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup said:
I hope anyone in this thread saying using loops takes less talent has a real lead and bass guitar, a few bowed instruments, and a few live percussion instruments sitting around their studio...if not, have some really good sample libraries, I mean the 500gb orchestras and 20gb drum/perc kits with the 50gb bass modules.

If not, you're cheating yourself and your music.

I noticed not too many actual links to music in this thread.

I'll give an example of how loops can be used. Not the best beat in the world, a lil dated now, but....

SoundClick artist: Phuk'dup Beats - Can't think of anything cool to type here.

Everything in this beat was played EXCEPT the arp synth that just happened to fit(that was indeed a loop) and the underlying wah guitars that were cut out of a loop and rearranged to add a lil soul. The main clap/snare was also cut out of a loop. I coulda left those elements out, used something "from scratch" in their place if i wanted a beat making merit badge...but that's the point, i'm more worried about completing my sound than "how much of my talent(that I still have, don't have to overextend every song) was used".

SoundClick artist: Phuk'dup Beats - Can't think of anything cool to type here.

^^^Everything in that on was played except the bongos(a loop) on the chorus. So I guess I need to take them out to be "more talented", right? Doesn't make sense.
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I think I've seen this setup before.
I'll never forget the your sample tutorial :victory:(i felt badd for dude).
That shit was classic!
 
deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup said:
I hope anyone in this thread saying using loops takes less talent has a real lead and bass guitar, a few bowed instruments, and a few live percussion instruments sitting around their studio...if not, have some really good sample libraries, I mean the 500gb orchestras and 20gb drum/perc kits with the 50gb bass modules.

If not, you're cheating yourself and your music.

I noticed not too many actual links to music in this thread.

I'll give an example of how loops can be used. Not the best beat in the world, a lil dated now, but....

SoundClick artist: Phuk'dup Beats - Can't think of anything cool to type here.

Everything in this beat was played EXCEPT the arp synth that just happened to fit(that was indeed a loop) and the underlying wah guitars that were cut out of a loop and rearranged to add a lil soul. The main clap/snare was also cut out of a loop. I coulda left those elements out, used something "from scratch" in their place if i wanted a beat making merit badge...but that's the point, i'm more worried about completing my sound than "how much of my talent(that I still have, don't have to overextend every song) was used".

SoundClick artist: Phuk'dup Beats - Can't think of anything cool to type here.

^^^Everything in that on was played except the bongos(a loop) on the chorus. So I guess I need to take them out to be "more talented", right? Doesn't make sense.
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but it does say a person is less talented. it goes beyond music to.

examples
who do you think would be called a chef? a person who baked a cake from scratch or the person who bought a betty crocker cake mix? both made something delicious but the other had help. sure the chef didn't lay the eggs and make their own flour. but they pieced it all together they alone gather the ingredients.

sure i didn't record the bass drum, snare, guitar pluck, etc. but i went and got them all and made it all work.

and yes DJ/producers play the same thing as regular DJs. but one of them makes music while the other just plays them which explains why you'd get more money per gig if you actually produce.

loops equal betty crocker cake mix.
 
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^^^So a more talented chef has to grow his own vegtables and raise his own livestock, right? Even if his food isn't as good as the guy who buys his from the supermarket, he's more talented because he grew everytrhing? Oh, that's right, let's stick to your example.

So...a chef who makes everything from scratch who's cake tastes like it's missing something, is overall ameteurist at best, and taste's worse than a cake made from a box and prepackaged icing is still more talented than a chef who's capable of doing the same(more than likely does a better job than the guy just boasting about making everything from scratch who's cake is horrible), but knows that if he takes a box of betty crocker and adds a few of his own ingredients to the mix and uses his own from scratch icing, consumers(who don't give a f**k about anything but the taste)will call him a genius and flood his bakery for his cakes that are time and cost effective while still being very distinguishable as professionally made because of the elements he put into the final product. Mind you this same said chef CAN if requested make a BETTER cake mix from scratch...but it would take resources that aren't always available to him(live instruments, million dolar studio)like that box of cake is(Reason, FL, Ableton, ect. and a few loop sounds mixed in with from scratch stuff to add realism).

Logic has escaped and is running loose right now.

Don't you think for that second beat I posted I coulda just loaded a good bongo patch and played out something almost identical? I coulda even added the right variants in velocity to make it sound just as convincing. Hell, it's just bongos, I coulda ran to guitar center, bought a set, mic'd it up, recorded that, maybe even something better...coulda called in a professional bongo player...but WTF for? That beat is still completely royalty free, and anyone with reason has those same bongos(factory rex loop)yet i've never heard them used identically in a song? Go figure...they're just f**kin bongos, how does that take away from every other element I had complete control over in the song? Especially when the final product is good?
 
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yes, but a chef who makes a better cake from scratch is better than a chef who makes the same quality of cake out of the box comparatively.

We're not questioning whether or not you can make something that sounds great with loops,
we're questioning whether or not you're the one who actually did the real work
seeing as someone else with a lot of talent created those loops to begin with
just as the cake company creates their recipe for their boxed cake.. not you.


I take the position that it's not lazy to use some loops,
but don't only use loops.

You all have the potential to be better than that
and create at least some of your own material
to go along with those loops so you have an original product that you can be proud of.

I'm not judging either.

I'm just encouraging people to expand their boundaries.

don't put yourself in a box by only using loops.

I used to use loops for my beats only because my drum samples sounded like crap,
but I upgraded to pro tools 10 which came with the plugin boom
and now I don't use loops at all unless it's to cut a high hat or something out of them to replace the midi note that I don't like.

That actually brings me to another point.

If you're using loops for your drums...
you could actually cut up that loop and create your own beats out of it instead of relying on the same beat as the loop
by using editing and time compression expansion to adjust the length of the audio clips without changing the tone.

---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

if you're using pro tools...
you can get to TCE (time compression expansion)
by clicking and holding down on the button that looks like this ( [ )
next to your pencil tool up top and then selecting TCE

then you can adjust the length of your audio clips so they fit together on the grid

I'm not sure how to do this with other software,
but I'm sure there's a way.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

so try cutting up your beat
arranging the audio clips in a way you like (lined up to the grid)
and then adjust the ends of the audio with TCE so there are no gaps between the clips

you can also consolidate that whole brick of audio when you're done,
but I recommend leaving it so you can move things around later if you need to.

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

also make sure you cut it where every new sound comes in, because if you leave a high-hat in the middle of one of your audio clips for example without separating it...
it's going to probably be offbeat after you TCE it.

use it carefully
 
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So if I use a shaker loop because it's accessable, I'm not talented. I should make it from scratch? So what if I make it using a step sequencer to control velocity and intricate timing? I should play it by hand, right? What if I use an arp that I programmed? What if I just use an arp preset? nah, I should just play it by hand, right?

The reason this arguement is lost on me is because you have to have the worst ear imaginable to not understand your sound needs what it needs. Using restraints will always be limiting. I can play bongos(who the f**k can't). I can do a good emulation on a bucket or table. I can pay someone to come play bongos. But inside Reason's factory bank there are bongo rex loops that stretch to the tempo of your song and can be rearranged to fit your song. It's the easiest of all above mentioned options, why would it take from MY talent(that's still there) to use a bongo loop?

You guys and your artist standards. Maybe it's lost on me because I can actually play multiple instruments, have the resources to mic a real violin, bongo, guitar, ect., but sometimes just say "f**k it. I'll use a loop". while most of you guys(not speaking to anyone directly, don't take it personally, just from what I've heard on this site)talking about doing everything from scratch don't even know how to get a decent mix or use proper sound patches for realism...not to mention your chord and keys game is not up to par.

If you have access to real guitars and play well, I'm not talking to you, but if your idea of a nice lead guitar is a patch out of reason or logic, you're FAILING. Get a damn loop pack, real guitar, or hire a guitarist.
 
Deragned

I play multiple instruments to man

Guitar, piano, mandolin, guitar, classical guitar, harp, etc

I agree that using loops is better sometimes

all I was saying is mix it up
don't just stick to loops

Personally,
I had to pretty much limit myself with the guitar because of a wrist injury that cost me my ability to play longer than 5 minutes without falling over in pain.
at least I can still play the piano pretty decently though

but using midi patches is different than just using loops.

loops don't require any songwriting

midi is to sheet music as metric is to imperial

they really are the same concept only midi is more modern

anyways,
again
I'm not on the position of judging anyone
only to encourage them to expand their boundaries beyond just using loops
but to only use loops where necessary

the world has enough of people judging each other so I'm not going to add to that,
but dude..
did you just insult my chord and key game
or were you talking about someone else
because my chord and key game is spot on
not to sound pretentious :P
 
^^^lol, no, not insulting you at all. Just speaking in general. And through type, it may sound like a heated debate, but, just a general discussion. Everything's cool, BTW I actually like the song linked to your sig. :cheers:

Now back to arguing!!!!

It's interesting you brought up midi loops and advocated the use of them. I'd put those in the same category as audio loops. They can be manipulated because you can pick the soundpatch you want, but then IMO, you're "pretend playing". I'd rather a chef use betty crocker and add his own ingredients and be able to say "hey, can you beleive that's betty crocker cake, I just added buttermilk and syrup(I'm not a chef, i don't know what they'd add, lol), and have you like "wow, this tastes nothing like what comes out the box" than for them to blatantly steal a recipe(midi loop)and then put there own name on it(switch around sounds).

BTW, a bongo or guitar midi loop is gonna still sound horrible compared to an audio loop unless you have a really dedicated library of sounds.
 
thanks man
I'm checking out your beats right now to
they sound great!

actually, I was talking about using individual midi notes.. not loops

and this is for songwriting value not performance value

I wouldn't pretend like I was playing anything I write in midi either,
but I have a midi guitar so sometimes I am

Although due to the latency,
I have to go back and fix everything anyways so I guess you can't count that either
(midi pickups have like a full 1 second latency so there's nothing you can do other than fix it)

you can make a bongo midi patch (not loop) sound good if you put the right reverbs and whatnot on it actually.
I'm a big fan of plate reverb personally :P

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------

You're right about that though
audio loops sound way better than midi loops

but I still prefer regular midi (individual notes) over both
it's a lot more work to get some stuff to sound real though

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

You know one thing that I hate about midi

you have to use an arpeggiator to get up and down sounds instead of just strait down notes

they really need to come out with a version of pro tools/all the other program that has something that lets you control whether or not each individual note is an up note or a down note on the actual midi grid

If you know what I mean
you'd agree that this would be awesome
 
My 2 cents is some of the posts in this thread reek of musician elitism. I rather be lazy with a hit single that I used a loop in, than not have hit single because I was a musical purist. By the way, I don't use loops or sample (but I think good samplers are more talented than people give them credit for). I just think if you're talking about pop music (not rock, jazz, classical, neo-soul/old school r&b) the issue is not relevant, because all that matters is sales/utube hits, etc.
 
^^^I think people downplay the road they didn't take. I've heard people speak on this new era pop/dance sound and say "it's just a continuous kick through the entire song and cheesy bending synths", but they're not able to do it. They talk about trap hip hop "it all sounds the same, anyone can make it", but there attempts sound horrible. People say "sampling takes no talent", but aren't able to do it. People say "you won't be good at music if you don't now scales, intervals, progressions, blah blah", but they can't just hear something and replay it like some people who can't read a lick of music that can outplay them. People say "I don't need to know music theory" who don't even have basic fundamentals needed to created a halfway decent song.

It's always easy to say the guy who's not doing things your way is doing it wrong. But in the end, the only way to do it right is...MAKE A GOOD FINAL PRODUCT. :cheers:
 
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