C
California
Guest
nice , intelligent rebuttal
also. notice how you struck prematurely since nothing of what i wrote had ANYTHING to do with religion or God .
Kill the preacher
- Thread starter 61Key
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nice , intelligent rebuttal
also. notice how you struck prematurely since nothing of what i wrote had ANYTHING to do with religion or God .
Robot Sunset Extreme
New member
I thought that was just a humorous nod to your explanation of seeing the back of your head
C
California
Guest
i apologize. its because typically , atheists use this cliche phrase ,"circular reasoning", which they learn to use form videos on youtube with names like "how to debate a christian and win" and i thought that the pic was premature reference to it
I live right outside of New Orleans. All I know is right after Hurricane Katrina, well before the National Guard and FEMA showed up, the churches were there. They had countless supplies of food, water, diapers, clothes, etc. and were offering hot meals and showers (all the power and water was out). All of these supplies were donated from people all over the country and scores of volunteers had traveled from other states using their vacation time from their day jobs to help out (could you see yourself doing that? I'd have a tough time).
My parents house had 35 trees down (you couldn't get through the front door). A group of church volunteers from Tennessee (probably about 25 people) came with chainsaws and cut up all the trees into logs in about 4 hours. And they did it all for free. After we said thank you, the response was "Don't thank us, thank you for letting us do God's work".
I'm not going to get preachy and throw anything in anybody's face, but there are a lot of good things that come from churches. I'm sure you will see a lot of hypocrites, but don't let that prevent you from seeing the good people in there too. If FEMA had run things like these churches did, people wouldn't have had to wait 4-5 days for some water.
My parents house had 35 trees down (you couldn't get through the front door). A group of church volunteers from Tennessee (probably about 25 people) came with chainsaws and cut up all the trees into logs in about 4 hours. And they did it all for free. After we said thank you, the response was "Don't thank us, thank you for letting us do God's work".
I'm not going to get preachy and throw anything in anybody's face, but there are a lot of good things that come from churches. I'm sure you will see a lot of hypocrites, but don't let that prevent you from seeing the good people in there too. If FEMA had run things like these churches did, people wouldn't have had to wait 4-5 days for some water.
Robot Sunset Extreme
New member
that doesn't make god real. In fact that's why the cult has survived for thousands of years.
That's actualy not totaly true that good things come. The only benefits from religion come on the large scale of the community (and the leaders in charge) but at the expense of individual pleasure. Only the community benefits from the systems of religion. That's why the strongest nations in the world were/are Christian. Christianity teaches one to be a harder worker without having to pay them money in this world. The rewards, wealth, and treasure come in the "kingdom of heaven" (conveniently AFTER you die, good luck with that fools) and teaches one to not commit crimes at the fear of eternal suffering.
Of course this is good for the community. Less crime, more productivity per human unit (for free).
Is it the truth about the orgin of our species? No.
Is it good for the human individual who has less than holy instincts by genetics? No. It makes you not enjoy your life because you have been tricked into sacrificing yourself for a greater good. So you are plagued by guilt and shame for all the things that truly give us pleasure.
Individuals pay the price for the greater good of the community and the ones in charge.
I am thankful my parents were Christians, but I'm glad I have the clarity to not be one myself and waste my life sacrificing for others. Like they kind of did for me when they didn't have to.
It's not about why is "good" it's about what is truth. Should we be spreading healthy manipulative lives? Or the cold hard truth? Either way in the end we allllll die so why does it matter. Life is about creating as many happy times and memories as you can before you are old and that's all you have to look back on. Life os hard and then you die. Man up and be brave. Quit actin like a little b1tch hiding behind religion and the promise of the afterlife because you are in denial that we all die one day.
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C
California
Guest
this is what i mean by mis-information and mistakes. The Bible actually never teaches eternal suffering for the wicked . the worst punishment is the death penalty and that was reserved for specific acts . Also, since you believed it to teach eternal suffering, it would make sense for someone to want to "hide" from that, since thats more scary than death . I know this fear is the number one reason of atheist because thats usually the first thing that pops up " why would an all loving God burn people alive for eternity" ?
Robot Sunset Extreme
New member
Well by eternal suffering I mean hell. The bible/Christianity does teach about hell right? We agree on that right I'm sure.
Considering, God, as portrayed in the bible, is omnicient, omnipresent (and can tell the future), that would unfortunately make him the most evil being in all existance.
Here's why: he can tell the future so he knew that trillions and trillions of souls (who have a choice) will choose to not believe in God and will sin and end up in hell. Out of every generation that lived, more than half of them went to hell right?
Yo that's a lot of living souls burning in hell.
So if life on this earth is a test to see if you are good or bad, and afterwards you either go to heaven or hell, and god knew ahead of time that many people will fail this "test" called life. Why did he even create us like this knowing most of us will just rot in hell. Why make the test so hard. Why even play this big game? Pure evil.
Of course there's no such thing as God so it's all good...
Phew
Considering, God, as portrayed in the bible, is omnicient, omnipresent (and can tell the future), that would unfortunately make him the most evil being in all existance.
Here's why: he can tell the future so he knew that trillions and trillions of souls (who have a choice) will choose to not believe in God and will sin and end up in hell. Out of every generation that lived, more than half of them went to hell right?
Yo that's a lot of living souls burning in hell.
So if life on this earth is a test to see if you are good or bad, and afterwards you either go to heaven or hell, and god knew ahead of time that many people will fail this "test" called life. Why did he even create us like this knowing most of us will just rot in hell. Why make the test so hard. Why even play this big game? Pure evil.
Of course there's no such thing as God so it's all good...
Phew
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B
biggrome
Guest
Everything I believe about church came from observation and the news...
I could never make sense out somebody asking you for money for something they "should" do for free. If somebody can make me understand the money part then I'd start going to church next week. "We gotta keep the lights on!" doesn't cut it for me.
To that dude that said they helped out in N.O.... any community organizer could've done those same deeds. I'm pretty sure the people from whatever church it was let it be known what church they were from in hopes of gaining members which translates into more money.
I hear the infidelity, molestation, etc. stories on the news and there's no way I'm going to try to figure out what twisted ish a preacher is doing. I do know that he's human like me and he can go to work just like me and show up on Sunday too... just like me (if I went to church).
I do know that a lot of them "counsel" couples and do a lot of other stuff they aren't qualified to do.
I do know that one of the most animated preachers up here hangs out at the Casino, lol. I can guarantee he's not gambling with his personal income... well, his income came from the people that are working hard jobs as I type this and he takes their hard earned money to the casino.... wow.
To California about the homeless people thing... I'm not going to try to guess which homeless person is legit. I just donate to charity and let them figure out what's legit. I'm still donating to a cause... and I will actually be able to know the cause and see their efforts at work. Not just giving money to somebody that might use it for another 40 oz.
So my beliefs all come from documentaries that are legit like THE HISTORY CHANNELS' - Banned from the Bible, CNN, things I see with my own eyes and personal beliefs. When they say that the Pastor has a member of his congregation pregnant and that person doesn't show up at the church or if I see a preacher at the casino... lol, it just reinforces my belief that we're all just humans and God didn't pick any of us to "talk" to over other people.
Seriously, if you believed in a God that wouldn't talk to you directly how would that actually feel to you.
God - "You're not worthy to talk to me, roam your city and pick a church. I only talk to preachers... don't forget your wallet"
Next Sunday at the church you pick - "GOD told me to tell you!... " then 5 minutes later "It's about that time, collection plate coming around" then 20 more minutes of the stuff he said on the same day the year before and "We're taking a 2nd donation, collection plate coming around again" "You have to give to get!" "The more give the more you'll be blessed" "I need a new... I mean the church has to KEEP THE LIGHTS ON!"
Then you'll see that homeless dude on the street corner preaching and has signs that Jesus is coming back and he's all scruffy.... but people will walk past him and call him crazy... eventhough he's saying exactly what the pastor at church is saying...
So I don't get caught up in it. I do what I do from what I have formed as "my" beliefs. Works great for me.
I could never make sense out somebody asking you for money for something they "should" do for free. If somebody can make me understand the money part then I'd start going to church next week. "We gotta keep the lights on!" doesn't cut it for me.
To that dude that said they helped out in N.O.... any community organizer could've done those same deeds. I'm pretty sure the people from whatever church it was let it be known what church they were from in hopes of gaining members which translates into more money.
I hear the infidelity, molestation, etc. stories on the news and there's no way I'm going to try to figure out what twisted ish a preacher is doing. I do know that he's human like me and he can go to work just like me and show up on Sunday too... just like me (if I went to church).
I do know that a lot of them "counsel" couples and do a lot of other stuff they aren't qualified to do.
I do know that one of the most animated preachers up here hangs out at the Casino, lol. I can guarantee he's not gambling with his personal income... well, his income came from the people that are working hard jobs as I type this and he takes their hard earned money to the casino.... wow.
To California about the homeless people thing... I'm not going to try to guess which homeless person is legit. I just donate to charity and let them figure out what's legit. I'm still donating to a cause... and I will actually be able to know the cause and see their efforts at work. Not just giving money to somebody that might use it for another 40 oz.
So my beliefs all come from documentaries that are legit like THE HISTORY CHANNELS' - Banned from the Bible, CNN, things I see with my own eyes and personal beliefs. When they say that the Pastor has a member of his congregation pregnant and that person doesn't show up at the church or if I see a preacher at the casino... lol, it just reinforces my belief that we're all just humans and God didn't pick any of us to "talk" to over other people.
Seriously, if you believed in a God that wouldn't talk to you directly how would that actually feel to you.
God - "You're not worthy to talk to me, roam your city and pick a church. I only talk to preachers... don't forget your wallet"
Next Sunday at the church you pick - "GOD told me to tell you!... " then 5 minutes later "It's about that time, collection plate coming around" then 20 more minutes of the stuff he said on the same day the year before and "We're taking a 2nd donation, collection plate coming around again" "You have to give to get!" "The more give the more you'll be blessed" "I need a new... I mean the church has to KEEP THE LIGHTS ON!"
Then you'll see that homeless dude on the street corner preaching and has signs that Jesus is coming back and he's all scruffy.... but people will walk past him and call him crazy... eventhough he's saying exactly what the pastor at church is saying...
So I don't get caught up in it. I do what I do from what I have formed as "my" beliefs. Works great for me.
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C
California
Guest
didnt i already explain that the Bible doesnt teach to give a tithe to churches or pastors ? you keep going back to that point . find a church where they dont ask for a tithe
C
California
Guest
this proves to me that you havent actual read the Bible like you claimed. with all due respect, you havent made one post where you didnt say something incorrect regarding what the Bible teaches.
"we agree that the Bible teaches a hell right?" . no . If by "hell" yo u mean "sheol" "hades" "valley of ben-hinnom" or "tartarus" then yes, but neither of these mean "place where living souls are burned alive for eternity" . Sheol and hades are the same thing (Hades is the greek form of the hebrew "Sheol") . Everyone that dies goes to hell (sheol, hades) . King David and Jesus went there . Does anyone believe that they were burned alive ? no . The valley of the son of hinnom has nothing to do with teh first 2 and tartarus is a whole nother place aswell (a dark place where fallen angels are held, no mention of humans being there or eternal punishment in fire) . The punishment is the same as its always been. what did God tell Adam would happen ? what does the NT say the wages of sin is ? its death. The Bible never teaches the idea of people being burned alive for eternity, it teaches eternal life vs being dead . The teaching about a humans immortal soul continuing in life after death is pagan and is not found anywhere in the tanakh . Also, the BIble never says that humans have immortal souls (which is required if you believe that people are still alive after death (which is an oxymoron in itself)
B
biggrome
Guest
For what?
Would I be more holy if I found a church? more spiritual?
... or is saying "I go to church" just something nice to say?
Doubt if I'd be more holy, spiritual or whatever.... can't I just watch a pastor on TV...
What if I turned on Joel Olsteen for a little while, would that do?
I'm confused...
Where does it say that I'm supposed to go to church? (maybe somebody told you you were supposed to) Why is a church holy when it was probably built by the same people that built the 7/11 across the street from it. Did a hand come out of the sky and bless it? Will it be a Thai restaurant in a few years?
Not sure what the big deal about church is. It's a dude standing in the front that you're supposed to listen to and he's supposedly more holy than you - even though he's just another dude.
I remember this dude trying to overcharge me for something he agreed to do and when I started going off on him he tried to say "MY GOD, I'mma Pastor at so and so church" like that was supposed to mean something LOL! I lit into that fool so hard he had to jump in his car and leave. He took what I gave him because he wasn't getting another dime from me.
Things like that reinforce my belief that Preachers are just regular old people that put on a happy face on Sundays and try not to get caught doing whatever it is that they do that's "unholy".
... but there are some truly upstanding people that try to live life a sin free as possible, I applaud them... but they're still regular people at the end of the day... and I won't be giving them any authority over me or my beliefs.
I honestly don't see how a bunch of people can let somebody else tell them what to believe. I've been telling people forever that RAKIM is the greatest rapper of all time... not everybody believes me and they shouldn't because they should be able to think for themselves.
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C
California
Guest
this proves to me that you havent actual read the Bible like you claimed. with all due respect, you havent made one post where you didnt say something incorrect regarding what the Bible teaches.
"we agree that the Bible teaches a hell right?" . no . If by "hell" yo u mean "sheol" "hades" "valley of ben-hinnom" or "tartarus" then yes, but neither of these mean "place where living souls are burned alive for eternity" . Sheol and hades are the same thing (Hades is the greek form of the hebrew "Sheol") . Everyone that dies goes to hell (sheol, hades) . King David and Jesus went there . Does anyone believe that they were burned alive ? no . The valley of the son of hinnom has nothing to do with teh first 2 and tartarus is a whole nother place aswell (a dark place where fallen angels are held, no mention of humans being there or eternal punishment in fire) . The punishment is the same as its always been. what did God tell Adam would happen ? what does the NT say the wages of sin is ? its death. The Bible never teaches the idea of people being burned alive for eternity, it teaches eternal life vs being dead . The teaching about a humans immortal soul continuing in life after death is pagan and is not found anywhere in the tanakh . Also, the BIble never says that humans have immortal souls (which is required if you believe that people are still alive after death (which is an oxymoron in itself)
Robot Sunset Extreme
New member
How are you gonna tell me I haven't read the Bible? I have, and I was a Christian until I was 19. At most you can claim that we have different interpretations, or that you feel my interpretation is wrong. And if I was wrong about anything try to point it out logicaly. I wasnt wrong about any of those things. You cant just say I was wrong and not explain why. And also... Interpret these verses straight out of the book.
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 18:8-10
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
James 3:5-7
Hades is different than hell:
1. KJV mistranslates "Hades" as hell in every passage which confuses some
2. Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire proving they are distinct: Rev 20:14
3. Temporary receptacle of dead awaiting resurrection and judgement: Rev 20:13-15
4. Temporary holding place of devil and demons: Rev 17:8
5. hell is not temporary like Hades, Hell is permanent.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New International Version)
9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
Thessalonians 1:5-8 (New International Version)
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Matthew 13:42
42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Duration of punishment is forever, eternity:
1. The same words that describe hell also describe God and duration of heaven
forever: Rev 14:11; 20:10
black darkness forever: Jude 13
2. Eternal day of Christians is same duration as eternal night of lost
3. The undying worm, everlastingly consuming an unconsumable body
4. No second chance:
Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version)
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Now there is the Carnalist point of view: Based fundamentally upon the false doctrine that rejects the dichotomous nature of man, in the not commonly believed Carnalist pov, Eternal punishment is likened unto setting fire to dry leaf. The leaf is destroyed forever, it ceases to exist and the fire goes out although nothing could extinguish the fire before the leaf was fully consumed. "Carnalists" believe the Bible teaches "eternal destruction" (destroyed forever) rather than "eternal punishment" (conscious pain forever). But they are false becauset he Bible mentions a punishment worse than physical death: Heb 10:28-29 What is worse than death??? Exactly: Hell not Hades. This isnt an episode of Xena warrior princess. At least that is not what the traditional Baptist or Non Denominational Churches teach.
1. The "carnalist" type groups who teach annihilation argue that God would not be just to punish a man forever.
2. Just as no one can actually understand the logic behind God's mercy in saving us through Christ dying on the cross, we probably can't understand God's justice with hell.
God appealed to all our five senses to describe hell as a bad place:
1. Touch: pain from burning fire
2. Taste: dry mouth, extreme thirst, blood from gnashing teeth
3. Smell: rotting garbage-gehenna; rotten eggs-brimstone
4. Sight: smoke-fire; corruption-gehenna or black darkness
5. Sound: moaning, weeping, crying, screaming
Now you would idealy reply with a rebutal to explain why Hell isnt what most Christian churches teach, especialy for the points I made in Bold. If you cant come up with rebutals, we can go back to thinking that Hell as most Christians teach it is a place of eternal suffering. Then you can rebutal to me why God isnt the most evil concept possible. Sending Trillions to hell. What about people in Tribes who never have contact with missionaries and who will live and die without even having a CHANCE to know about Jesus. They will go to hell. And that is Effed up.
Luckily God isnt real tho. Phew.
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C
California
Guest
you say that hell and hades are 2 different things but the thing is that hell doesnt exist . find a word in the Bible that means "hell" . none of the words are places where dead people are alive (thats an oxymoron see definition to oxymoron) . Your church probably also taught that Jesus was God and that Jesus came to destroy the Law and that gentiles were the new jews etc . none of these teachings have anything to do with the Bible . you probably went to a church where nobody kept the sabbath . your church probably taught the trinity (3 distinct beings each being God) . your church probably taught that without Jesus dying, forgiveness didnt exist, or that if people dont receive Jesus as their lord and saviour, they cant be saved . they probably taught many things that the Bible never taught . This isnt a knock on you, its not your fault you were brought up in a church that teaches "christiandom" , 99 percent of people are, but thats where "Reading the Bible" comes into play . nobody taught me what i believe and there is no church that believes what i do (however , i can find individuals that believe exactly what i do form different churches) .And like i stated earlier, if you cant prove to me that the soul is immortal, then you cant even begin to debate what "hell" is in the Bible ,since the idea depends on teh first idea of an immortal soul. The punishment is eternal. whats the punishment ? death . how long is the second death ? eternal, and voila, eternal punishment . The Bible mentions sinners being burned in hell (gehenna) , which is what jesus was quoting , but it mentions that the people are dead
""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
do you see what jesus was quoting ? and do you notice "corpses" ? it does mean "corpse" as in "not alive" . Also, this place is an above ground and literal place, not a spiritual , invisible , underground place. In fact, teh mere thought of burning people alive in gehenna is an abomination that had never even entered the heart of God
"And they have built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Ennom, to consecrate their sons and their daughters to Moloch: which I commanded them not, neither entered it into my heart, that they should do this abomination, and cause Juda to sin."
the valley of ben-hinnom (son ennom) the hebrew of the greek "gehenna"
γεενναν noun - accusative singular feminine
geena gheh'-en-nah: valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem
This valley where people did what God called an abomination was turned into a garbage dump because of its bad history . So the dead bodies of sinners (murderers etc) were thrown there after they were killed . And jesus was telling people "do you want to end up here?" . It wasnt a place where people were granted eternal life in torment , nor was it a spiritual , underground place. it was a literal place where people were literally burned after they got the capitol punishment , but not alive and not forever .
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
it doesnt say
"For the wages of sin is eternal life in torment, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
who was teh first one to mention this lie ?
"but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.',"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman."
souls die in the Bible. soul "naphesh" means "breathing being" . if you are alive, you are a breathing being, if you are not breathing, you are not a soul anymore .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
Adam didnt recieve a soul, he BECAME a soul , and adam died later .Spirit means breath . a body with a spirit means a body with breath which equals a soul . people dont HAVE a soul and a spirit , they ARE a soul. when people die, they die. they are not conscious anymore.
The Bible says that the wages of sin are death. not eternal life in torment .its not even Gods nature to do something like that. The BIble says dont fear him taht can kill the body but not the soul , but rather fear HIm who can destroy both in hell. sombody argued that "destroy" doesnt mean destroy always , but the word used for "corpses" in the Isaiah verse always means corpse, also Jesus said that the same thing that happens to teh body would happen to the soul , adn we see in this verse that the body is dead . here are a few verses that teach that the human soul isnt immortal like people teach and that it does indeed die, that dead peopel are not alive or concious , that teh wages of sin are death adn not eternal life in hell, and that only the saved shall become immortal, but nobody is immortal right now.
"Behold all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die"
souls die (its the same word for soul throughout the whole OT )
For the wages of sin is death(not eternal life in pain), but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(if someone is alive in pain, they are still alive, and here it says like it always says, that only the saved will live and the unsaved will die)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul
(Adam WAS a soul, he didnt have a soul, and adam died later)
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(we are not immortal)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing
(the dead dont know anything , if they were conscious they would know some stuff)
‘Let my soul die with the Philistines’
(souls die)
and turned the glory of the immortal God, unto the similitude of the image of mortal man, and of birds, and four footed beasts and serpents.
(God is immortal , while man is the contrary)
lets look at the verses used to SUPPORT this pagan idea .
The strongest support for it is found in the book of revelations. The book is symbolic and it doesnt make that much sense that the only thing to be literal would be the part that seems to contradict the over all teaching of the Bible concerning the dead and the punishment of the wicked. What alot of people dont know, si that many of these references in revelations are also quotes, just like Jesus quoting Isaiah . so lets see some of these verses that the book quoted.
"It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever."
This verse talks about the destruction of a place known as "Edom" . This already happened. Notice some of the similar things like "smoke will rise forever" "fire will will not be quenched" etc . If you go to the land of Edom, you will find that it is no longer burning and the smoke has since stopped . It was symbolic language and all "fire will be quenched" means is that nobody will be able to quench the fire, that it will burn until it consumes everything, and then it will stop . Also you made a good observation is pointing out that it only mentions the ones that get the mark and worship the beast will get tormented forever . so even if this verse was a literal account, it would only be talking about those specific people . Also, notice that death (hades/hell) is thrown into the lake of fire (gehenna) . The purpose of throwing death in (symbolically speaking of course, since death isnt a tangible object) is to signify the complete destruction and end of death. that death will not exist anymore, so i have to assume that the same thing happens to the people thrown in, that they are destroyed, unless the lake of fire is a place that gives eternal life and doesnt consume and destroy, then even death would live forever in the lake of fire .
the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable . this is easily proven using scripture, and i have pretty much already shown that the Bible is clear that dead people are not alive and holding conversations like in this parable . So besides teh verses taht say that dead people are dead, lets consider other things.
Remember Lazarus ,the one Jesus brought back to life ? we have 2 options , either Lazarus was in hell or in heaven/paradise according to the people that believe that dead people are alive. So now we have problems . If Lazarus was in heaven/paradise , why did Jesus bring him back ? and if lazarus was in hell, why did Jesus take his sweet time ?
"Yet, when Jesus heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was for two more days.(lazarus was actually dead at this point, and Jesus knew this)"
Also, why is heaven and teh lake of fire next to each other ? also, why did the poor man go to heaven? just cause he was poor ? thats all we know about him. People say that the "paradise" is not heaven, and that it is an underground place next to the lake of fire. well , according to the Bible , "Paradise" is the third heaven which takes "underground dungeon" out of play .The reason people invented this doctrine is because they know that the Bible says that everyone goes to hell (sheol/hades/death/grave) so they invented that heaven is also in hell . Here is a verse that literally says that even king David hasnt gone to heaven yet .
acts 2"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"
"Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day."
if david was alive in paradise , then they wouldve said that . look at waht Jesus said concernign the tribulation
"because those days will be a time of suffering, a kind that has not happened from the beginning of God's creation until now, and certainly will never happen again."
Jesus said that the period of tribulation will be th eworst suffering that has ever existed and that ever will exist . if People were gonna burn alive for eternity, i would have to go with THAT being the worst . Unless people think Jesus forgot about that . I dont think Jesus forgot, i believe he said the truth that the tribulation will be the worst suffering to ever exist and that and that nothing after it or before it will top it. Also, God says to Ezikiel
"When I tell the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you don't speak to warn the wicked from his way; that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless, if you warn the wicked of his way to turn from it, and he doesn't turn from his way; he shall die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your soul."
God told him that if you dont warn someone of something, that you are partly to blame . God never warned Adam nor the Israelites of eternal life in hell . He told Adam and the Israelite that the punishment was death . " If you do this, you will die" , and He never warned them of anything happening AFTER the death . At death, they paid the price of sin . Also, we teach that Jesus took our place and paid our price . Well, if we were going to burn alive for eternity, isnt that what Jesus wouldve had to do to "take our place" ? However, he DID take our place, because punishment was gonna be a sad death. a rejected death , not eternal life in fire.
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QUOTE=biggrome;48543197]For what?
Would I be more holy if I found a church? more spiritual?
]probably , it depends on what they teach adn if you actually do it or not.
... or is saying "I go to church" just something nice to say?
it sounds nice because by implication you are also saying that you do what you learn (ie good things)
Doubt if I'd be more holy, spiritual or whatever.... can't I just watch a pastor on TV...
yes but even more important , you need to read the Bible for yourself
What if I turned on Joel Olsteen for a little while, would that do?
I'm confused...
Where does it say that I'm supposed to go to church?
right here "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." heb 10:25
(maybe somebody told you you were supposed to)
Why is a church holy when it was probably built by the same people that built the 7/11 across the street from it. Did a hand come out of the sky and bless it? Will it be a Thai restaurant in a few years?
by church, we are referring to teh gathering of believers. not the building itself. In fact, if you go to a church where they teach that the building itself is holy (ie, call it a temple, or dont allow newcomers to step on teh "altar" etc)., it is idolatry and strictly forbidden. The only "holy" place that is recognized by the Bible is the temple in Jerusalem . anmy other "holy place" or altar" is forbidden , even if it is build for the God of Abraham
Not sure what the big deal about church is. It's a dude standing in the front that you're supposed to listen to and he's supposedly more holy than you - even though he's just another dude.
if you are going to a church where the dude thats talking isnt more holy than you, you are in the wrong place
I remember this dude trying to overcharge me for something he agreed to do and when I started going off on him he tried to say "MY GOD, I'mma Pastor at so and so church" like that was supposed to mean something LOL! I lit into that fool so hard he had to jump in his car and leave. He took what I gave him because he wasn't getting another dime from me.
Things like that reinforce my belief that Preachers are just regular old people that put on a happy face on Sundays and try not to get caught doing whatever it is that they do that's "unholy".
... but there are some truly upstanding people that try to live life a sin free as possible, I applaud them... but they're still regular people at the end of the day... and I won't be giving them any authority over me or my beliefs.
you shouldnt . the Bible should be your authority
I honestly don't see how a bunch of people can let somebody else tell them what to believe. I've been telling people forever that RAKIM is the greatest rapper of all time... not everybody believes me and they shouldn't because they should be able to think for themselves.
the main thing, and most important thing si to study and edify yourself. If you would do this at home , then you dont really need church. church helps in that some people would never read the Bible or reconsider their ways unless they went to a church
Would I be more holy if I found a church? more spiritual?
]probably , it depends on what they teach adn if you actually do it or not.
... or is saying "I go to church" just something nice to say?
it sounds nice because by implication you are also saying that you do what you learn (ie good things)
Doubt if I'd be more holy, spiritual or whatever.... can't I just watch a pastor on TV...
yes but even more important , you need to read the Bible for yourself
What if I turned on Joel Olsteen for a little while, would that do?
I'm confused...
Where does it say that I'm supposed to go to church?
right here "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." heb 10:25
(maybe somebody told you you were supposed to)
Why is a church holy when it was probably built by the same people that built the 7/11 across the street from it. Did a hand come out of the sky and bless it? Will it be a Thai restaurant in a few years?
by church, we are referring to teh gathering of believers. not the building itself. In fact, if you go to a church where they teach that the building itself is holy (ie, call it a temple, or dont allow newcomers to step on teh "altar" etc)., it is idolatry and strictly forbidden. The only "holy" place that is recognized by the Bible is the temple in Jerusalem . anmy other "holy place" or altar" is forbidden , even if it is build for the God of Abraham
Not sure what the big deal about church is. It's a dude standing in the front that you're supposed to listen to and he's supposedly more holy than you - even though he's just another dude.
if you are going to a church where the dude thats talking isnt more holy than you, you are in the wrong place
I remember this dude trying to overcharge me for something he agreed to do and when I started going off on him he tried to say "MY GOD, I'mma Pastor at so and so church" like that was supposed to mean something LOL! I lit into that fool so hard he had to jump in his car and leave. He took what I gave him because he wasn't getting another dime from me.
Things like that reinforce my belief that Preachers are just regular old people that put on a happy face on Sundays and try not to get caught doing whatever it is that they do that's "unholy".
... but there are some truly upstanding people that try to live life a sin free as possible, I applaud them... but they're still regular people at the end of the day... and I won't be giving them any authority over me or my beliefs.
you shouldnt . the Bible should be your authority
I honestly don't see how a bunch of people can let somebody else tell them what to believe. I've been telling people forever that RAKIM is the greatest rapper of all time... not everybody believes me and they shouldn't because they should be able to think for themselves.
the main thing, and most important thing si to study and edify yourself. If you would do this at home , then you dont really need church. church helps in that some people would never read the Bible or reconsider their ways unless they went to a church
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Robot Sunset Extreme
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Yo.... You really think I'm gonna read all that?