Do you think producers who use loops are lazy?

[odinnshred]

The reason we don't just make loops from scratch is because we don't know what we're looking for until we've found it. and like dude above said, some sounds you just can't recreate.

... people seem to have gotten the wrong idea about this thread, maybe why it hasn't had any replies for almost 2 weeks. 'Loops' AS 'loops' aren't always necessary as an artistic tool. By the idea of making your own loops I just meant writing and recording your own music. This means deciding what sounds you want to happen when, instead of relying on other people to decide for you. This most recent post implies that producers don't know what sounds they want, and let their music by dictated by their resources.

Is this 'lazy production'? Is it 'lazy composition'? Is it 'lazy' at all? This thread's told me not to be so judgemental, but I'm not really sure the same opinions can be applied to both production as an act, and production as an art. I should have named this thread "Do you think producers who use loops lack compositional creativity?"

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

^^^In which case my reply would be they lack no more compositional creativity than others who's music lacks from the absense of samples putting the loop using producer ahead of the curve.

I'm aware there are producers out there who have a studio with a couple live drumsets, grand piano in the corner, keyboardists and session instrumentalists on call, if that's you, why would you ever touch a loop? I've never relied on them in the same environment.

All I've said this entire thread is when you don't have them on call, you need other options. That's gonna be amazingly accurate sample libraries, or loops. I'd rather manipulate a bongo loop when I need realistic bongos than take up 8gb of space with a percussion library that's only been used in 2 songs. I use piano enough that I have other options than looping for a realistic grand. That's not saying the next guy can't choose to loop different elements.

But this is coming from a guy who actually samples other songs for a sound that you can't get ANY other way as well, so I don't expect "composers" in here doing the same thing I do when I choose to make a beat from scratch to understand how I work when I choose to start with a foundation.

Only point I've made the entire thread is most guys who say it's "lazy" to use loops can't even get their composed from scratch stuff sounding as good as my composed from scratch stuff does before I say "i need to add a loop for some realism".

I've clicked on soundclouds the entire thread.

 

[odinnshred]

^^^ I already discussed this with you and somewhat agree with the usefulness of loops. If you need to get things done now (something that I don't often need to do), then I can understand why people would use loops.

In the post you just replied to, I conceded that I was kinda wrong about my viewpoint, but I still feel it is lazy from a compositional POV. Music lacking in other peoples' samples is a different potential problem altogether. And the problem that other people's loops and samples bring is a lack of originality (key part of that word being 'origin'). As I said much much earlier, it depends on the producer's pride in their music as a creative thing.

Maybe the reason that this thread has become so popular is that 'being lazy' is a vague idea. I would like to disclaim all of my previous and future posts here (unless I explicity state otherwise) that my remarks are largely from a compositional standpoint.

 

[lifelessalarm]

It depends on personal opinion; some people may see it as reducing the artistic integrity of the music as it takes away that personal touch. However if it sounds good then why not, I personally dont use them but Im not saying i never will either.

 

[LG4343]

Entirely depends on how you use them, straight out of the box as they are is going to be too boring to make a good track out of anyway unless they've already got 8-16 bars worth of variations that happen to suit your track - loops should be made to work for your music not to try write it on their own!

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

^^^ I already discussed this with you and somewhat agree with the usefulness of loops. If you need to get things done now (something that I don't often need to do), then I can understand why people would use loops.

In the post you just replied to, I conceded that I was kinda wrong about my viewpoint, but I still feel it is lazy from a compositional POV. Music lacking in other peoples' samples is a different potential problem altogether. And the problem that other people's loops and samples bring is a lack of originality (key part of that word being 'origin'). As I said much much earlier, it depends on the producer's pride in their music as a creative thing.

Maybe the reason that this thread has become so popular is that 'being lazy' is a vague idea. I would like to disclaim all of my previous and future posts here (unless I explicity state otherwise) that my remarks are largely from a compositional standpoint.

And the reason our conversation continues is that you're too stubborn to accept that music can be made a million different ways. I've explained reasons why a producer would and would not need to rely on loops as part of their music. i've explained different ways looping can be used in your music. I've explained ways you can use loops to be original.

Even used examples like Skrillex who composes everything from scratch except little vocal samples he adds to his finalized productions to ADD character and how musc LESS creative his music would turn out if it lacked parts HE DID NOT CREATE that while adding a polished touch do nothing to improve compositional value. Adding a sample of "somebody call 911!" can add an element you could've just recorded yourself or a friend saying, but you guys will probably lose the magic that audio clip captured. Same can go for a simple drum pattern. Why take the time to remake what already exists just for your own foolish ego. Who can't replay the famous "impeach the president" drumloop? On machine or real kit? Doesn't mean you'll capture the same magic in that recording.

I've identified that if you have access to the highest end sampled sounds or tons of live instruments, there's no reason to ever consider looping anything. But Philharmonik VST will never sound like The London Symphony Orchestra performing an intricate piece with tons of transitions and articulations. If you want to duplicate that and you don't rely on loops, you're gonna have to rely on 40 other musicians and a couple engineers.

Quit acting like it's "lazy" unless oyu're gonna show and prove by hiring an orchestra and booking a studio room big enough to record them. lol.

My only point has been most guys who look down at loops don't even have the musical knowhow to know what their music is lacking. If you're sitting behind nothing but a computer(even if you have a couple guitars and a few high quality sampled vstis)you've got a long way to go before understanding why elements are incorporated into music that the original composer didn't control.

One day when i have Kanye's budget, I'll just hire operas and live session musicians and record my own samples of crickets chirping for interludes, lol. But wait...Kanye doesn't even do all that. He just uses loops.

Ultimately, from a compositional standpoint, I'm saying the do it yourself attitude limits you. Even stevie wonder as great of a musician he is relied on session drummers, guitarists, and live symphony as well as artist input on songs he produced. In 2012, that equates to what you can find digging thru for the right royalty free loop and controlling it's direction as you apply it to your song. So if you're not taking Stevie's approach and knocking loops, you're the one being left in the dust. Period.

That doesn't apply to all musical compostitions, but you're not gonna do a song like Fergie's "Big Girls Don't Cry" without a live string section, a real guitar, a real bass. You lie to yourself and come up with some casio sounding shyt that FANS AND CONSUMERS will know does not sound authentic while other producers who make the same shyt and think they got a "good ear" pat you on the back for doing it all yourself.


I'm done with this thread though. I'm not even defending loops, i'm defending REAL AUTHENTIC QUALITY PRODUCTION BY ANY MEANS NESSESARY being looked at as lazy by guys who can't cut it but think they're doing more because they did it all themselves to stroke their own egos.

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

Personnel
Songwriting - Stacy Ferguson, Toby Gad
Production - will.i.am
Bass and drum programming - will.i.am
Basses - Trey Henry, Mike Valerio
Drums, keyboard bass, keys - Keith Harris
String arrangement and conductor - Ron Fair
Violins - Bruce Dukov, Natalie Leggett, Charlie Bisharat, Sarah Thornblade, Julie Gigante, Josefina Vergara, Sid Page, Roberto Cani, Anatoly Rosinsky, Liane Mautner, Barbra Porter, Darius Campo, Helen Nigthengale, Tiffany, Hu. Becky Bunnell, Shoshana Claman, Lisa Sutton, Armen Annasian
Violas - Brian Dembo, Matt Funes, Thomas Diener, Andrew Duckles
Celli - Cecilia Tsan, Larry Corbett, David Low, Suzie Katayma
Engineering - will.i.am, Neil Tucker, Tal Herzberg
Pro Tools - Tal Herzberg
Guitars - George Pajon Jr.
Mixing - Jack Joseph Puig, Dean Nelson (assistant)

All that was done for just that Fergie song, lol. But y'all gonna do it all yourself? Lol. I looked it up because I was like "I know that's real strings, I'mma look stupid if it was Eastwest or something".

 

[LG4343]

Now I think my last answer was lazy

 

[highkoo]

My only point has been most guys who look down at loops don't even have the musical knowhow to know what their music is lacking. If you're sitting behind nothing but a computer(even if you have a couple guitars and a few high quality sampled vstis)you've got a long way to go before understanding why elements are incorporated into music that the original composer didn't control.

Wow, that is some shit talking lol.
So, basically you are saying that only suckers who cant make good music anyway are the people who look down on loops?
Only people who cant even recognize that all they need is a hot loop, are the ones not using them.
Ha! Thats actually funny!

Ultimately, from a compositional standpoint, I'm saying the do it yourself attitude limits you.

Ah, inspiration! Yeah, dont learn shit lol. We got loops.

Even stevie wonder as great of a musician he is relied on session drummers, guitarists, and live symphony as well as artist input on songs he produced. In 2012, that equates to what you can find digging thru for the right royalty free loop and controlling it's direction as you apply it to your song. So if you're not taking Stevie's approach and knocking loops, you're the one being left in the dust. Period.

It is seriously hard for me to believe that you actually agree with that bolded bit there. Stevie Wonder and his session players were about as good/useful as a loop pack?
Someone has got to say it: That is nuts.

Just because something does not come from the producers hand does not put in all on equal ground.
You act as though the process of writing music, hiring a player, and getting a good recording is the same thing as picking loop number 47. Its just silly to think about.

So if you're not taking Stevie's approach and knocking loops, you're the one being left in the dust. Period.

LOL! It was good enough for Stevie, so...
Im convinced!
You are actually comparing Stevie and session players recording in the studio to canned loops? I dont even know what to say.

I'm not even defending loops, i'm defending REAL AUTHENTIC QUALITY PRODUCTION BY ANY MEANS NESSESARY being looked at as lazy by guys who can't cut it but think they're doing more because they did it all themselves to stroke their own egos.

Egos? Wtf...
This has nothing to do with ego. I has to do with creative process.

Someone who would rather find that 'perfect' loop than create it is fukkin lazy, or at best, not very creative. Obviously. They are not interested in the creative process, and they would rather not put energy into it if they can help it.
They would rather not learn how to maybe play the shit they need to make their music, if they can help it.

And lets be real- We are not really talking about 'authentic quality production' here. Loops are less likely to be used or necessary in 'quality productions', and if they are, they are more likely to be used tastefully or for a reason.
What this thread is really about is cookie cutter beat-by-numbers shit where you end up with a 'track' that is mostly made out of someone elses loops.

Looked at in the best light, using loops is getting the product of hard work without putting the effort in. That might be a 'score' to some people, but not all of us are only concerned with the end product. Some people actually do understand the 'million ways to make music' and respect those that put in real effort to achieve it, instead of picking a loop.

A real musician/producer/creative person does not "lol" at someone cuz they 'wasted time' learning how to play something, and hi-five the guy who used the loop cuz he saved a few minutes and managed to get a track out without having any skills.
That is jackass behavior.

Some of you are fond of saying that 'the end product is all that matters'.
Its really not.
At least, do not assume that everyone you play your canned shit for has the same opinion of your hot beats when they are made out of shit you didnt make. Not everyone is only concerned with the end result.

tl;dr-
Then I wasnt talking to you anyway.

 

[odinnshred]

"Looked at in the best light, using loops is getting the product of hard work without putting the effort in. That might be a 'score' to some people, but not all of us are only concerned with the end product." - highkoo.

This.

I'm not a producer solely concerned with the end product (as I've said earlier, I'm taking my time to perfect my skills), I view production and composition as one and the same. That's just me. As I said in my last post: "I would like to disclaim all of my previous and future posts here (unless I explicity state otherwise) that my remarks are largely from a compositional standpoint."

If you want to be "too stubborn to accept" that I typed that, and that I acknowledge my flaws as a musician, then you won't learn anything about me. Obviously, you shouldn't really care. I'm just some guy and you're an irrefutable moderator. I guess asking a somewhat provocative question is taboo in this forum.

I'd love to be able to make everything the way I want to make it, but this desire involves MAKING it. That's just me and my desires. Kudos to everyone who works differently and is more productive. I just hope they feel as much pride in a 'flawless mix' as I do in my deeply personal composition.

 

[highkoo]

What happens if you take the whole idea of music-as-product further-

If I was really only concerned about the end result being a banger that I can present, I would just stop making music altogether.
I would become a 'ghost writer wrangler'.
I would just buy all the bangers off of fifty of you guys, say they were mine, and sell em to the next guy. :lol:
Everyone is happy: End result is "doap", I get paid, you get paid.

I get to look hard and bob my head to a dope track that I own, and make money from it.
From my point of view that is the most logical move for all you guys who are totally unconcerned with how a track is made.

I bet that sounds awesome to some of you?
If it does, stop making music right now. Im not even kidding.
Im saving you years of frustration.
Have fun doing it.

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

@Highkoo I was not referencing Loops as the only tool to achieve full sound, but one of many.

I'd never compare stevie and his session musicians to a loop, good way of twisting my words. I'd compare the realism of their sound to what can be found in a loop or sample if you don't have the same means as they do... as would the people who founded hiop hop on the merit that they didn't have those sounds so they accumulated them thru unorthodox means(breakbeats and samples aka LOOPS).

So yeah, only a loser who is so oblivious to what his sound is lacking would knock anyone with a fully developed sound nomatter what approach they used to get it. I don't "lol" at anyone who's time pays off. I "lol' at those of you wasting it talking about what you're gonna do someday. B'jork made a career out of using loops(she's so lazy, her music is so talentless), yet it's above you. Max Martin has used loops, Linkin Park, even Scott Storch. Yet it's above you. Returning to my statement on session musicians, maybe you haven't been in enough studio enviroments to know this, but 9/10 those musicians IMPROVISE...that means you don't know what you're getting no different than incorporating a loop that lines up right. You still need the skill to recognize if a loop lines up right like you'd need an ear to tell hank to try something different with the drums, but 9/10 you're not controlling that session musician.

I indeed "lol" at those of you who not only feel you're above it with no quality even close to guys who have used them, but have the nerve to look down on people for using them. This thread is a look into reality. All of you indicate you're "on a journey". I'm not saying I've "arrived" you learn new things everyday. I'm saying when you become comfortable with your sound, it's gonna be due to incorporating things you may not have thought to apply, and when you do "arrive" the last thing you'll be worried about is how the next guy does his thing if it sounds great. People have those ethics when they haven't figured out none of this shyt is rocket science and it should all come second nature.

I'm beyond the equasion, so don't think for a second I'm defending myself. i've recorded full rock bands, played strings and keyboard on OTHER PEOPLE's tracks. Have access to guitars right here next to me as I type. Yeah, i still sample because I like the sound, but the only element I rely on in my creation process is me and whoever happens to be in the room depending on the project.

All i've said is relying on every element at your disposal is a step forward. I'm sure Stevie has sampled or looped something in his career. He had on of the 1st samplers I've ever seen at his disposal. I'll continue "lol'ing at anyone too stubborn to take advantage of technology and every tool at their dispense. "Lol" harder at those who somehow think they're above others who do.

I haven't touched on "tastefulness" of use because it's subjective and can flaw ones points. I agree "tastefulness is key to anything, but what's funny is, I've said numerous times...if you have tons of other things at your disposal, it would make sense to overlook loops, but anyone with all those tools would understand why someone using Reason, Logic, FL, Ableton, ect to make a composition without a studio full of real instruments may look into them. I get the idea alot of you are lost in the developmental phase and would use a loop for a melody rather than a sound. Even Stevie's playing sounds like $99 Casio keyboard crap coming out of most DAWs without real instruments to add elements of realism. I'm not talking about looping for a lack of playing skill, I'm talking about capturing sound.

If you can't play how the hell are you gonna incorporate a loop or high quality sample library into your sound and make convincing music?

I also get the idea you guys don't really understand how many ways there are to collect a loop. Some of them are pretty far from "lazy".



Lazy

This forum has taught me to just let you guys "dream of a day". I think I come off as agressive somehow while trying to explain to you YOU SHOULD BE DOING ANYTHING IT TAKES TO DEVELOP YOUR SOUND. I've never tried to imply you shouldn't keep progressing. Even stevie progresses every time he sits down to reinvent himself. I'm just telling you to take advantage of what's at your disposal. But you guys hear it as something else. I respect it.

Bet you guys wanna make music like "insert artist" someday who's either using loops or doesn't have close to the creative control over his session musicians you think he does. And that, sir, is what I was saying is an equivalent.

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------



0:18 What's the difference between what he described and running across a drumloop(FYI, I've never used a drumloop in it's entirety without manipulating it, but still defend it, because I'd be a hypocrite not to while defending any other form of looping).

 

[Kevindurant]

I dont understand how using loops can considered being lazy. Thats how some people want to do it then that how they do it. Every kick sample you have used you probably didnt mic and record yourself. Every sound in the synthesizer you have used you didnt create from scratch. The libraries we all buy, we didnt create that, somebody worked hard and recorded those samples. This argument can go on forever, at the end of the day everybody is guilty of reusing something. Just enjoy making music and have fun. Thats what its all about.

 

[highkoo]

Sorry, Ima chop this shit all up again

I'd never compare stevie and his session musicians to a loop, good way of twisting my words. I'd compare the realism of their sound to what can be found in a loop or sample if you don't have the same means as they do... as would the people who founded hiop hop on the merit that they didn't have those sounds so they accumulated them thru unorthodox means(breakbeats and samples aka LOOPS).

Hey man, you said it, lol.
No I appreciate you explaining it. Youve got a point there. Getting any kind of hand-made non-quantized analog type sound is important. And not so easy without at least good midi input, if not real recording.

So yeah, only a loser who is so oblivious to what his sound is lacking would knock anyone with a fully developed sound nomatter what approach they used to get it. I don't "lol" at anyone who's time pays off. I "lol' at those of you wasting it talking about what you're gonna do someday.

Yeah that is another way to put it, and I agree.
If someone doesnt have what they need to be achieving their own goals with their music, regardless of what those goals are, its hard for them to be tellin anyone else how they should change what might already work. Thats fair.

B'jork made a career out of using loops(she's so lazy, her music is so talentless), yet it's above you. Max Martin has used loops, even Scott Storch. Yet it's above you. Returning to my statement on session musicians, maybe you haven't been in enough studio enviroments to know this, but 9/10 those musicians IMPROVISE...that means you don't know what you're getting no different than incorporating a loop that lines up right. You still need the skill to recognize if a loop lines up right like you'd need an ear to tell hank to try something different with the drums, but 9/10 you're not controlling that session musician.

I indeed "lol" at those of you who not only feel you're above it with no quality even close to guys who have used them, but have the nerve to look down on people for using them. This thread is a look into reality. All of you indicate you're "on a journey". I'm not saying I've "arrived" you learn new things everyday. I'm saying when you become comfortable with your sound, it's gonna be due to incorporating things you may not have thought to apply, and when you do "arrive" the last thing you'll be worried about is how the next guy does his thing if it sounds great.

I dont disagree really, but I think its really easy for people who are not so far along in 'the journey' to look at loops more as a source of inspiration and a way to actually find 'their sound', rather than a just a convenient way to get what you hear/want, like you are saying.

I'm beyond the equasion, so don't think for a second I'm defending myself. i've recorded full rock bands, played strings and keyboard on OTHER PEOPLE's tracks. Have access to guitars right here next to me as I type. Yeah, i still sample because I like the sound, but the only element I rely on in my creation process is me and whoever happens to be in the room depending on the project.

Lol I kinda figured, thats why I busted your balls there.
Please dont think Im saying you dont know what youre doing.

I think I come off as agressive somehow while trying to explain to you YOU SHOULD BE DOING ANYTHING IT TAKES TO DEVELOP YOUR SOUND. I've never tried to imply you shouldn't keep progressing. Even stevie progresses every time he sits down to reinvent himself. I'm just telling you to take advantage of what's at your disposal. But you guys hear it as something else. I respect it.

No, I hear you on that point, and I hope others do to. And I also dont want to sound like Im saying we should not make the best music we can by any means either. If a loop happened to make my track, Id be using it. My point is just that there is a difference, and for some people it is far more rewarding and useful to learn how to play the piano than it is to cut a piano loop.
But I see where you are coming from and it looks like a lot of people here dig what you are saying.
You come at it from a little more of a business/commercial point of view and thats useful to a lot of people here.
Either way, it is definitely about going after what you want.

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

Glad to see we could agree with a little elaboration, you're not a dumb guy, so you swaying a certain way may have made me doubt my own views a little, not much, just a little, lol. . #RESPECT.

 

[dogbo415]

if it sound good more power to you just dont act like its your drums lol

 

[ni-kulo]

no.1 rule, if it sounds good, noone will care.

 

[61Key]

I don't remeber seeing it in this thread, but what kinds of construction kit loops brands do you guys use anyways, just curious.

the only one i know i big fish brand

 

[chordprogressions48]

Well, I can only say this....I know several excellent instrumentalists and composers, and none of them use loops. I never used them, either. But then again, I never understood the difference between 'producer' and 'composer'. I know what a producer is and what they do, but also think that a producer is also a composer.

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

^^^I get the idea you know the difference between a G#maj7 and a GMaj7 is and you can play articulate transitions off of either. That also indicates you have an ear for sound selection. Also gives the impression you play a ton of different instruments and aren't just relying on what came factory in Logic, Reason, or an equivalent while producing/composing.

In which case you not using anything outside your own hands to enhance your craft isn't out of stubborness. You are the guy I keep referring to that doesn't need outsourcing numerous times in this thread, sir.

We could probably learn something from a link to some music. I'm sure it's awesome from reading just the 1st page of your site.

Doesn't change anything I said about others though, lol.

But I will say dude's site is worth checking out.

 

[iilextro]

I agree with vinny... A basic drum loop isn't really a major element that makes the song original... As long as it sounds good!