A Producers-Union?

[biggrome]

Another thing is that now there's a separation,people don't know that they can have songs as good as the songs on the radio. I think the abundance of free beats is one of the factors that created that separation.

Laffy Taffy is to blame. When those types of songs became hits... people somehow instinctively knew that it sounded cheap... but became a hit anyway. We as beatmakers laughed, consumers danced.

It's the equivalent of taping your pants on the inside of the pant leg when you don't have the money to get them altered at the cleaners... it's the "just as good" or "this'll work" mentality.

 

[j.troup]

That's what I'm saying people now adays don't know what a producer does,when a rapper works with me i often end up rearranging the song,then i go listen to the other stuff they've done and it's random no subject songs.

Another thing is that now there's a separation,people don't know that they can have songs as good as the songs on the radio. I think the abundance of free beats is one of the factors that created that separation.

You're right...alot of artists don't know how much of an ARTFORM the recording process is. It takes just as much creativity to be the recording engineer as it does to be the producer.


So you have to show and prove, with your work.


I was working with a rapper who had some crazy studio habits...would make the song sound like crap. But i kept working with him, kept gaining his trust, kept getting him to do things my way...

And song after song that we did was the hottest song that he had ever done...whether it was my beat or not...the SONGS that came out of my studio sounded better than the songs he had done in other people's studios...


So he started bringing other people wiht him to the studio...and they would see the professionalism and the ART of putting together a song...and they wanted it for their songs...

And they'd come thru, and they'd bring someone new...and they'd see it...and so on and so forth.


That's how it happens. It happens gradually.



Gradually, rappers started to see the VALUE in coming to J.Troup's studio. They started to HEAR the value for themselves.


That's value added. You have to FIND WHAT YOUR CUSTOMERS VALUE...and then ADD THAT VALUE TO YOUR PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.

 

[chilla2]

I know it's gradual,but my only thing against rappers buying beats is that they get it for 99 cents,record and the "producer" never hears the song and they come out with garbage.

If these 99cent beats were from "ya boi from high school" and you go there and chill with him and record, i think there would be less of a problem,actually i think that needs to start happening, but instead we have random buying from random and recording random for random to hear.

 

[j.troup]

I know it's gradual,but my only thing against rappers buying beats is that they get it for 99 cents,record and the "producer" never hears the song and they come out with garbage.

If these 99cent beats were from "ya boi from high school" and you go there and chill with him and record, i think there would be less of a problem,actually i think that needs to start happening, but instead we have random buying from random and recording random for random to hear.

How does a higher price point stop someone from
spitting hot garbage on the track? Cuz not all good artists have money, and not all crappy artists are broke.

 

[Soulcentric]

Think. If industry artists and up and coming artists are forced to GIVE there music away free online. How in the hell can they pay producers hundreds of dollars a track? Rappers will only pay based on what they can make a profit on. If there set to sell millions then they will pay thousands. If there set to sell thousands they will pay hundreds.

I think this is the question we have to answer. I think us producers have to think ways to make money besides selling beats because the way the market is heading now, music is going to be FREE. I mean artist could get show money and merchandise, etc..but what options do we have???

 

[WhiteHotPro]

I think where people are getting confused is the term "union" - I didn't mean it in the traditional sense. I just meant that we as serious producers should collectively take action in trying to keep our market viable. That's it.

 

[j.troup]

I think where people are getting confused is the term "union" - I didn't mean it in the traditional sense. I just meant that we as serious producers should collectively take action in trying to keep our market viable. That's it.

WHAT ACTION?!?!?!??!



I'm proposing action...you're not saying anything.

 

[WhiteHotPro]

WHAT ACTION?!?!?!??!



I'm proposing action...you're not saying anything.

Like what? Including J Troup bobble-heads with every beat purchase? You're clearly only interested in promoting yourself and your 99 cent beats. You're not iTunes, you're just a homie with beats and a webcam.

According to websiteoutlook.com, you're getting 476 pageviews a day. I doubt you're making $500/month. And you're happy with this?

It's just bad business. You're WAY below the equilibrium price of the market, and I guarantee your profits show it.

 

[bigdaddyslice]

spoken well Real 8

I dont think WHP means union by regular definition with monthly members fees and benifits n all that.

Instead its more like a business partnership between beat makers and producers. not to rule with an iorn hand, but to counter balance devaluation. The More established producers and semi established that join, the better.

I kno a lot of guys dont believe this union could work, even with other beat makers selling .99 leases.

but as long as there is consumer insterest, value, trust, hype, ect then it can survive.

there can be benifits to a group like this. especially if organized correctly, and seeing as I dont plan on going under $25 per lease anyway, then you can count me in

You really might be onto something here A.O. I think some sort of collective bargaining agreement is necessary for producers to sustain their respective current revenues. It's hard enough for guys to start out as a producer with building notoriety and clientele, now they must be concerned with under-cutting that will inevitably drive prices into the muck.
If the current trends continue the value of beats on the internet will be obliterated.

 

[InfiniteSound]

Hey guys

We've noticed some traffic coming to our site (beatpal.com) from this messageboard, and we thought we'd clear the air as to who we are and what we will offer.

It's great to see a community where intelligent debate regarding the current market trends is taking place. While a "producers-union" is a good idea in theory, of course it cannot be put into practice. There's just simply no way to regulate it or enforce it.

Six months ago, we at Infinite Sound Media Solutions took an objective look at the online "beat" market, and what we saw is a market in trouble. Price's are nose-diving for various reasons: pirated software, low barriers to entry, explosion of social networks, no costs associated with beat creation or beat hosting, etc. and the trend is likely (if not certain) to continue until the market is saturated.

Infinite Sound sought not to create a "producers union", but a free and fair marketplace with an agreed-upon price-structure intending to curb devaluation.

We've been scouting producers for months now on the usual beat-selling sites, such as Soundclick, Futureproducers, Myspace, PMP, etc. We're looking to "sign" producers who show great potential and are onboard with what we're trying to do (trying to secure our craft in the long-term). we're not looking at today's industry heavyweights, but rather the leaders of tomorrow's music industry.

This isn't a Micky Mouse beat-shop or beat-union, this is a corperate-backed marketplace looking to sustain viability in a dying market. If you're a producer who's confident in your sound/skill who is concerned with the direction our market is headed, we have some exciting opportunities for you.

If you've got any questions, our website is Beatpal.com, and our public email address for the time being is infinitesoundmediasolutions@gmail.com. We've got a pre-signup on our website if you'd like to be kept updated during our exciting developmental phase.

Regards,

Mike
Infinite Sound Media Solutions

 

[A.O.]

yea something like a bargaining agreement between producers and beat makers working on the interent could be established. not that all would follow, just as long as enough good ones did, to balance out this trend of devaluation.
(which could work regardless if others agree or not)

even if you dont like the idea of joining the "union" it all comes down to if you want to lease your beats for $25 n up, or for .99.

and after studying internet traffic, and the average conversion rates of most internet sites, I would rather keep my prices where they are.

(in most sites only 1 - 3% of visitors actually show interest in purchasing) i would rather my 1% pay $25 per lease than .99...

 

[WhiteHotPro]

^^^Exactly. How cares what Jimmys 99 Cent beats is doing? We just need an entity established with some of the big-names in the online market joining.

 

[Drop_Gemz22]

yea something like a bargaining agreement between producers and beat makers working on the interent could be established. not that all would follow, just as long as enough good ones did, to balance out this trend of devaluation.
(which could work regardless if others agree or not)

even if you dont like the idea of joining the "union" it all comes down to if you want to lease your beats for $25 n up, or for .99.

and after studying internet traffic, and the average conversion rates of most internet sites, I would rather keep my prices where they are.

(in most sites only 1 - 3% of visitors actually show interest in purchasing) i would rather my 1% pay $25 per lease than .99...

very well said, finnally someone puts it in plain english. Also expanding on this concenpt If i guy like J-troop gets 500 people per month leasing for 99 cents then surely he could get 50 people paying 25$ for a lease which more than doubles his profits, also he'd sell more exclusives because clients know that less people have leased the beat. Its just not logical business in my oppinion to bring prices to the sewer. The idea of a union? absurd. A market place for serious producers with a price floor of sorts to protect against devaluation.. A great idea. that i think a lot of people would get behind. It will just seperate the market into two tiers: those who consider themselves industry standard, and those who would like to continue selling bargain beats for Jayqwan the hobby artist.

 

[biggrome]

Don't you like it when people get all fired up and ready to go!

I saw the BeatPal idea... good luck with that... but people will sign up with one name...

... and still sell $2 beats under another name and act like they're down with the cause. It's the internet, you need to think harder.

Count me in, I just need to think of a cool production name for the ride.

The dude in charge will sell a beat for $50 if he needs the money... and nobody will ever know.

Sorry...

There are people on here that have worked with major artists that sell leases to beats for LESS than $25.00...


I always have to be the bad guy but it'll help in the long run...

Stankavelli Productions.... look out for us!

 

[A.O.]

yea, now we just have to figure out how to get more producers and beat makers to join in the agreement (which shouldnt be that hard considering the fact that this is beneficial to all of us planning on using the internet to make money)

 

[Legal Dollaz]

Its just not logical business in my oppinion to bring prices to the sewer. The idea of a union? absurd. A market place for serious producers with a price floor of sorts to protect against devaluation.. A great idea. that i think a lot of people would get behind. .

What qualifies one to be a serious producer? Because of what he charges OR what he brings of value to the table? A price floor DOES NOT protect against devaluation, because ANYBODY can charge whatever they want. Adding unique value to your product is what protects against devaluation. Brand relevancy protects against devaluation. Of course adding true value is easier said than done so you will have those that can't trying to 'reach to heaven but don't want to die' so they opt for the easier route which is 'lets all gang up together and attempt to FORCE the market rate'.

Start thinking about what the buyer's needs are (instead of just yours) and fill in the voids and you will be able to preserve your value. I personally know some independent producers that charge $1500 - $2500 a track (without any significant discography) and have a steady buyer base because they offer so much in addition to just a 'hot beat' its considered a bargin...to their target market (which may be different than yours). So having a floor price is ok but it has to be more to the equation so that its validated because the price in itself is not the validation.

 

[The Beat Pharmacy]

LOL! Have you guys made any beats TODAY! All this talk about union and ish.

Rome you a fool...got rollin over here.

Its a union job I'm on break LOL

 

[Kid Beats]

The best possible result is achieved through collusion.

 

[MrJames851]

The reality of the situation is that close to NO INDEPENDENT ARTISTS PUT OUT ALBUMS...everybody's putting out "mixtapes". Mixtapes of what? The same old industry beats, that have been rapped to a million times over again.

if it was about helping the music, wouldn't a better solution to be instead of taking advantage of all the irrelevant functionally non-existant BS that we're overloaded with, instead stop assisting people and try to put out some full albums? I already know your against albums so that's not a question for you

and $50 for a lease x 15 tracks is $750. Not to mention pressing, graphics, engineering, etc. A project can easily get up there...out of an independent artists budget range.

you can work at Wendy's and make $750 from 2 paychecks, anybody who thinks their gonna put out even a mixtape for $750 deserves to be boxed out of the game, regardless of what the listener or the damn rapper wants, any other field, if you can't afford it ... you can't afford that ****, you either pass on the services or you take your ass home to go get some more money and then you come back when you do

it's not "oh people don't want to pay? your beats aren't good enough" if it was a direct relationship between what their willing to pay and the perceived quality, you wouldn't be charging $99 let alone 99 cents, surely you don't think you have the lowest quality beats around although you most likely have the lowest price, so saying step your beats up is irrelevant, because your opposers could just as easily stay step your beats up and come back to play with the big boys when you have some something worth more than a Jr. Bacon, there's no incentive to excel, you could find someone to pay you atleast $50 for a beat as a complete novice, so if it comes down to less than half of that years later, what the hell is going on?

 

[j.troup]

Like what? Including J Troup bobble-heads with every beat purchase? You're clearly only interested in promoting yourself and your 99 cent beats. You're not iTunes, you're just a homie with beats and a webcam.

According to websiteoutlook.com, you're getting 476 pageviews a day. I doubt you're making $500/month. And you're happy with this?

It's just bad business. You're WAY below the equilibrium price of the market, and I guarantee your profits show it.

While you trying to diss me STEVE MAHONEY?!?!?!?...aren't u the same dude who just dropped THIS in my email box a few days ago??

Hey dude,


I'm not sure if you remember, but I made a post a while back saying that I was investing in / developing a new project. (https://www.futureproducers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306751)

Right now we're just putting the finishing touches on our "coming soon" pre-launch site, and with that comes a long and extensive marketing campaign, a build-up for the next 75 or so days until launch. (we've chosen a soft launch date of December 15th for our actual site)

For the first 2 weeks after our pre-launch site is up and running, we're using a marketing angle we've called "the Gabbo effect" ... I'm not sure if you're familiar with The Simpsons, but basically it involves revealing to the consumer as little as possible, just showing them a name and a date and letting curiosity get the best of them. Some of this involves going to various forums and messageboards to drum up interest (anonymously of course).


Because I am involved in the project, I don't want to make the post on FP myself, nor do I want to create a fake-account or anything like that. I know from experience that almost every thread you start on FP turns to gold, so I was hoping that I could ask a favor of you and have you create a thread about it. Not anything hocking my site or anything like that, just a "Anyone heard about this site?" type thread. In return, I'll gladly give you an email blast or something similar once we start signing up members and harvesting emails (you'll see on our site we have a pre-registeration form).

Let me know if this is something you'd be interested in doing!

Cheers


--
Steve Mahoney p/k/a White Hot
110beats@gmail.com
whpbeats.com

Man...you NEED MY HELP to cosign ur little piddly website, because NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOU OR WHAT YOU DO.



Shoulda looked at all that glass around u before u started throwing rocks, son.





ANYWAY...LIKE I WAS SAYING...




I keep saying this same thing OVER AND OVER...but you just seem consumed with trying to diss me...So I'll say it again.

People don't buy beats...they buy EXPERIENCES, RELATIONSHIPS AND SERVICES...

What's wrong with actually GIVING PEOPLE A REASON to buy your beats at the price you set?? How about setting yourself and your beats apart from the "cheap beats" crowd??


If you're gonna have a premium price, then have a premium product and/or service.

Those 2 magic words right there...ADDED VALUE. It's said millions of times in corporate america every day. That's what every business is striving for...ADDED VALUE for their clients...


Because that's the ONLY way your product or service will stand out from the crowd in 2009 and beyond.

Or...here's a great idea...



HAVE THE HOTTEST BEATS AT THE BEST PRICES!!!!!


Yeah!!!!!



Have great beats. And great mixing. And great customer service. And great prices.




What's so wrong with just doing plain ole good business? Give the customers a reason to buy...

The solution is DIVERSIFICATION!!! The solution is VALUE ADDS!!!


The fact is, in the internet age, INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS NOT SAFE!!! If your product is able to be DIGITIZED, it's able to be, STOLEN, REPLICATED AND DISTRIBUTED!!!

So guess what...you add value, by adding things that CAN'T BE STOLEN!!!! You add INTANGIBLES to ENHANCE THE VALUE OF YOUR PRODUCT TO THE CUSTOMER!!!


Why do people go to TGI Friday's? They serve the same crappy food as Ruby's, Applebee's, Chili's, etc. But how does TGI Friday's differentiate themselves? How has Ruby Tuesday's started to differentiate itself, even though it's serving the same ole crappy food?




Muscling the market into paying a particular price doesn't work...nor does idle threats, or senseless "organizations" or public service announcements, pleading with the buyers...ask the RIAA.


The only thing that's going to work is you coming to a TRUE UNDERSTANDING of what your potential customers VALUE, and GIVING THEM THOSE THINGS THAT THEY VALUE!!





Don't get mad, get BUSY!!

Beats have nothing to do with Services. Can you produce a SONG? Can you offer great mixing? Can you write and record a hook?

All those things are value adds, that increase your brand value. You might not sell as many beats, but you're selling more of the other services, to make up for that lost beat revenue.

That's value added. You have to FIND WHAT YOUR CUSTOMERS VALUE...and then ADD THAT VALUE TO YOUR PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.

You can either accept it, or keep seeing your profits go to sh*t. Because my revenue is going up on a daily basis.