V
verbal
Guest
Ortofon said:
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll let them know at DJ Supply. =)
I know you're a rep, but would you happen to know where I could get NC S stylii for a good price?
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll let them know at DJ Supply. =)
I know you're a rep, but would you happen to know where I could get NC S stylii for a good price?
O
Ortofon Inc
New member
Verbal
It has a lot do do w/what part of the country you're in.
As the U.S. importer we do have what 's called MAP (minimum advertised price) , so it is seldom that I see prices at store level. Like most other products though, it probably depends on how much else you are buying at the time. Guitar Center Stores/ Musician's Friend (GC's internet division) is a good starting point.
It has a lot do do w/what part of the country you're in.
As the U.S. importer we do have what 's called MAP (minimum advertised price) , so it is seldom that I see prices at store level. Like most other products though, it probably depends on how much else you are buying at the time. Guitar Center Stores/ Musician's Friend (GC's internet division) is a good starting point.
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Peasant Nikon
Guest
Ortofon said:
I really hope that is a ****ing joke. Night club stylii are identical to pro s except for the color?, and they are weaker than both the DJ and Scratch cartridges. Does that mean that I pay $20 more a stylus for the ****tiest model in the line infused with neon? I am about to shelf the ortofons and change over to something else if this is the case.
-Peasant Nikon
T
TeEm
New member
This is not correct according to the technival specs on the Ortofon website
http://www.ortofon.com/html/body_disco_coil_technical_data.html
Compare the frequency responses:
TECHNICAL DATA
OM NIGHT CLUB E
Output voltage at 1000 Hz,
5cm/sec.
6 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz
1,5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz
23 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz
15 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB
20-22.000 Hz
Frequency response
20-20.000 Hz ± 2 dB
TECHNICAL DATA
CONCORDE PRO
Output voltage at 1000 Hz,
5cm/sec.
5 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz
2 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz
20 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz
15 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB
20-20.000 Hz
Frequency response
20-18.000 Hz + 3 / - 2 dB[
Note that the stylis are replaceable between different models of carts but the the technical specs differ on the combination cart/styli: You´ll get a better cart if you put a NC styli on a Pro Cart.
--TM
G
gene-pool
Guest
TeEm, that's because you’re comparing an elliptical and a spherical tip. Check the specs for the pro cart and the NC S.
-Gene
-Gene
T
TeEm
New member
My misstake Gene, Thanks.
But there are diffrences also when comparing NC S and PRO S:
TECHNICAL DATA
OM NIGHT CLUB S
Output voltage at 1000 Hz,
5cm/sec.
6 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz
1.5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz
23 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz
15 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB
20-22.000 Hz
Frequency response
20-18.000 Hz + 3 / - 2 dB
TECHNICAL DATA
OM PRO S
Output voltage at 1000 Hz,
5cm/sec.
5 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz
2 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz
20 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz
15 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB
20-20.000 Hz
Frequency response
20-18.000 Hz + 3 / - 2 dB
So, you,ll still likely to get a better cart if you replace the PRO styli with an NC styli, imho.
--TM
But there are diffrences also when comparing NC S and PRO S:
TECHNICAL DATA
OM NIGHT CLUB S
Output voltage at 1000 Hz,
5cm/sec.
6 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz
1.5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz
23 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz
15 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB
20-22.000 Hz
Frequency response
20-18.000 Hz + 3 / - 2 dB
TECHNICAL DATA
OM PRO S
Output voltage at 1000 Hz,
5cm/sec.
5 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz
2 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz
20 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz
15 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB
20-20.000 Hz
Frequency response
20-18.000 Hz + 3 / - 2 dB
So, you,ll still likely to get a better cart if you replace the PRO styli with an NC styli, imho.
--TM
P
Peasant Nikon
Guest
That makes me feel better. I was pretty sure that were not the same, but when someone from the company comes on here and says something to the contrary, I get worried...
-Peasant Nikon
-Peasant Nikon
Dj Thy
Quartzlocked Weirdo
Well Frank, thank you a lot for clearing this up, it's rare to see such honest people nowadays.
But sadly this proves to me that some shops here are blatantly trying to gain some money by (mis)using this myth. I always wondered why some shops in my neighbourhood sell the carts way more expensive as in other shops.
The respectable shops I go, have regular prices for Ortofon stuff.
I tried to compare a cart/stylus combo with another, and my conclusions were that in the respectable shops, you mostly pay the stylus (my basic price for a new Concorde Pro S = 75 euro, new concorde NC E = 95 euro)
Let me clarify, my calculations are as follows (I know they are not right, but they give a rough estimate). I took the price of a new cartridge, that comes with a stylus. Then I sustract the price of a spare stylus of that model. In my theory this gives the price of the cartridge alone.
So, in the shops I trust, I saw that if you take for example a Pro S cart with a NC stylus, you roughly come to the price as if you would use my calculation (price of the single cartridge + price of the spare stylus). And the other way around, NC cart + Pro S stylus, gives roughly the same price (there is some differenc, but we're talking peanuts there) So basically the difference is the price of the styli.
Yet in those other shops, I saw that Pro S cartridges were roughly the "normal" price, but if you go higher in the ranks, they get VERY expensive. I did the same calculation on one of those shops, and to my amazement, I saw that they "charge" the NC cart almost double the price of the Pro S cart. Add the price of the NC stylus, and you see why they get so expensive.
I'm gonna talk to those guys and see what they say...
But sadly this proves to me that some shops here are blatantly trying to gain some money by (mis)using this myth. I always wondered why some shops in my neighbourhood sell the carts way more expensive as in other shops.
The respectable shops I go, have regular prices for Ortofon stuff.
I tried to compare a cart/stylus combo with another, and my conclusions were that in the respectable shops, you mostly pay the stylus (my basic price for a new Concorde Pro S = 75 euro, new concorde NC E = 95 euro)
Let me clarify, my calculations are as follows (I know they are not right, but they give a rough estimate). I took the price of a new cartridge, that comes with a stylus. Then I sustract the price of a spare stylus of that model. In my theory this gives the price of the cartridge alone.
So, in the shops I trust, I saw that if you take for example a Pro S cart with a NC stylus, you roughly come to the price as if you would use my calculation (price of the single cartridge + price of the spare stylus). And the other way around, NC cart + Pro S stylus, gives roughly the same price (there is some differenc, but we're talking peanuts there) So basically the difference is the price of the styli.
Yet in those other shops, I saw that Pro S cartridges were roughly the "normal" price, but if you go higher in the ranks, they get VERY expensive. I did the same calculation on one of those shops, and to my amazement, I saw that they "charge" the NC cart almost double the price of the Pro S cart. Add the price of the NC stylus, and you see why they get so expensive.
I'm gonna talk to those guys and see what they say...
Siv
where has he been?
Ortofon said:
Frank, you better correct this! I assume you mean that the concorde bit is the same but the styli are different.... (I Hope!!!)
O
Ortofon Inc
New member
Well, PN...nobody can accuse you of being diplomatic. VeiledPeasant Nikon said:
expletives and threat aside, see my post later today or over the wekend.
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O
Ortofon Inc
New member
Siv...looks like a more detailed explanation than I intended is needed. Will try to post later this afternoon or over the weekend.Siv said:
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G
gene-pool
Guest
Guys, relax! Frank is doing us a huge favor by posting here in the first place so be thankful. Just because you now know the truth about these carts doesn't make they any worse than they were before nor will it stop thousands of well known djs from using them.
TeEm, the only differences I know of that exist between the carts (not including the S vs. E styli) is how loud the needles are, Scratch (pink) being the loudest.
-Gene
TeEm, the only differences I know of that exist between the carts (not including the S vs. E styli) is how loud the needles are, Scratch (pink) being the loudest.
-Gene
O
Ortofon Inc
New member
My previous posts in this thread were apparently a little too basic f/some of you, when it comes to differences in the various models performance specifications.
Printed specs, as shown on the Ortofon web site and in the literature, are good for comparison between models but have only partial bearing on how the cartridge will sound in practical applications.
Unlike other electronic components, whose tested specs can reflect on how they will sound/perform, phono cartridges and loudspeakers, as tranducer devices, can not have all there parameters measured in the same way.
Cartridges, in particular, are tested using a "test record" and computer set-up which may or may not be close to what another manufacturer or reviewer uses. Notice I said tested not designed.
So, in the real world, 2 cartridges having exactly the same frequency response, ch separation, distortion, etc. can "sound" completely different. This is true with DJ carts as well as our $2,000+ Audiophile cartridges. Likewise, their interaction ( just like speakers) w/other components will color what you hear and determine which model is best f/you. Grand Master Flash is a regular visitor to our offices and has had the opportunity to use many of our models. His favorite is the CC-DJS -Blue. The list could go on and the favorite changing w/ each DJ and every country.
You will notice, on the Ortofon site, and as some previous posters have listed, the specs are actually quite close among the Concorde and OM models (spherical styli). The differences are attributable to the design and construction of the oscillating assemblies within the stylus unit. Meaning the cantilever (the hollow metal tube that holds the diamond tip), the magnet material, the damping design of the rubberized suspension and the quality of the diamond stylus itself.
The pole pins and coil assembly in the bodies are the same among the Concordes and the same among the OM's. You'll notice the "resistance" and "inductance" specs are the same. The coils are a major contributor to the amount of output, but the combination of the body and stylus determine the final output and sound/performance of the cartridge.
As I have previously posted, the performance and tracking ability can only be fully reached if you stay within the manufacturer's tracking force range. Interestingly, you can cause more problems tracking too light ( the stylus can bounce around in the groove). That's why it's always a good idea to be in the middle of the suggested range.
Please understand that I don't intend this forum to be a platform f/ pitching Ortofon products (I believe their perfrmance speaks f/themselves - ), just trying to clear up common mis-conceptions.
Finally, here's the tech info :
1. Yes, in spite of some posters disappointments, all the CC and all the OM bodies internal construction is the same.
2. The Stylus Pro S (black) has a stylus tip diameter/radius that is wider than the other models (r26 vs r18) and was first designed to play MONO LPs that have a wider groove than stereo LPs. Yet it is completely compatible w/ stereo. The other models however, are NOT intended to play MONO LPs.
3. Keeping # 2 in mind, the narrower tip radius will track deeper into the grooves ("V" shaped} of a stereo LP and have the capability of better performance.
4. The newest models, CC-NCS, DJS and Scratch, benefit from the newest stylus designs ( As do the Broadcast models, which we do not import into the U.S.- same as a NC , but color difference only).
5. Differences in cantilever thickness is less of a performance issue as it is a carry in your pocket, without a stylus guard issue. However, on the DJS and Scratch it can be subjected to very aggressive scratching, (I have never, ever heard of any other model's cantilever bending or breaking as a result of heavy use. So, this is a "tested" feature only at this point.
6. I would also mention that price differences among models don't necessarily reflect a "best" or "better" choice. It should always be an application choice. For instance, an elliptical stylus is the choice when better sound quality is desired for use in a quite environment or when transcribing records over to tape (or dare I say it, CD). It certainly isn't the best choice for
use in a noisy club, on an unstable platform, aggressively back cueing/scratching.
I hope this has cleared up some of the questions/misgivings that have been lingering. Debate on what's "best" will be an on-going discussion I'm sure, and I 'll continue to try to answer your questions as best I can.
Printed specs, as shown on the Ortofon web site and in the literature, are good for comparison between models but have only partial bearing on how the cartridge will sound in practical applications.
Unlike other electronic components, whose tested specs can reflect on how they will sound/perform, phono cartridges and loudspeakers, as tranducer devices, can not have all there parameters measured in the same way.
Cartridges, in particular, are tested using a "test record" and computer set-up which may or may not be close to what another manufacturer or reviewer uses. Notice I said tested not designed.
So, in the real world, 2 cartridges having exactly the same frequency response, ch separation, distortion, etc. can "sound" completely different. This is true with DJ carts as well as our $2,000+ Audiophile cartridges. Likewise, their interaction ( just like speakers) w/other components will color what you hear and determine which model is best f/you. Grand Master Flash is a regular visitor to our offices and has had the opportunity to use many of our models. His favorite is the CC-DJS -Blue. The list could go on and the favorite changing w/ each DJ and every country.
You will notice, on the Ortofon site, and as some previous posters have listed, the specs are actually quite close among the Concorde and OM models (spherical styli). The differences are attributable to the design and construction of the oscillating assemblies within the stylus unit. Meaning the cantilever (the hollow metal tube that holds the diamond tip), the magnet material, the damping design of the rubberized suspension and the quality of the diamond stylus itself.
The pole pins and coil assembly in the bodies are the same among the Concordes and the same among the OM's. You'll notice the "resistance" and "inductance" specs are the same. The coils are a major contributor to the amount of output, but the combination of the body and stylus determine the final output and sound/performance of the cartridge.
As I have previously posted, the performance and tracking ability can only be fully reached if you stay within the manufacturer's tracking force range. Interestingly, you can cause more problems tracking too light ( the stylus can bounce around in the groove). That's why it's always a good idea to be in the middle of the suggested range.
Please understand that I don't intend this forum to be a platform f/ pitching Ortofon products (I believe their perfrmance speaks f/themselves -
), just trying to clear up common mis-conceptions.Finally, here's the tech info :
1. Yes, in spite of some posters disappointments, all the CC and all the OM bodies internal construction is the same.
2. The Stylus Pro S (black) has a stylus tip diameter/radius that is wider than the other models (r26 vs r18) and was first designed to play MONO LPs that have a wider groove than stereo LPs. Yet it is completely compatible w/ stereo. The other models however, are NOT intended to play MONO LPs.
3. Keeping # 2 in mind, the narrower tip radius will track deeper into the grooves ("V" shaped} of a stereo LP and have the capability of better performance.
4. The newest models, CC-NCS, DJS and Scratch, benefit from the newest stylus designs ( As do the Broadcast models, which we do not import into the U.S.- same as a NC , but color difference only).
5. Differences in cantilever thickness is less of a performance issue as it is a carry in your pocket, without a stylus guard issue. However, on the DJS and Scratch it can be subjected to very aggressive scratching, (I have never, ever heard of any other model's cantilever bending or breaking as a result of heavy use. So, this is a "tested" feature only at this point.
6. I would also mention that price differences among models don't necessarily reflect a "best" or "better" choice. It should always be an application choice. For instance, an elliptical stylus is the choice when better sound quality is desired for use in a quite environment or when transcribing records over to tape (or dare I say it, CD). It certainly isn't the best choice for
use in a noisy club, on an unstable platform, aggressively back cueing/scratching.
I hope this has cleared up some of the questions/misgivings that have been lingering. Debate on what's "best" will be an on-going discussion I'm sure, and I 'll continue to try to answer your questions as best I can.
D
Deft
Guest
.........
O.k. that all makes sense.
In summary though, we can gleam these points:
Choice between OM & Concorde is purely a personal one, based on whether you want to set it up yourself or have easy "plug 'n' play" properties.
The actual OM or Concorde cartridge bodies are the same through all the series:
Pro, Dj, Scratch & Nightclub
The difference lies in the replaceable stylus assembly used.
BUT the real point that was kind of blurry between the other posts is whether there are differences between ALL the different styli choices.
i.e. are the following replaceable styli assemblies all totally different internally?:
Pro, Dj, Scratch, Nightclub S, Nightclub E.
So each of these replacement styli would give a different sound/performance etc.
?
O.k. that all makes sense.
In summary though, we can gleam these points:
Choice between OM & Concorde is purely a personal one, based on whether you want to set it up yourself or have easy "plug 'n' play" properties.
The actual OM or Concorde cartridge bodies are the same through all the series:
Pro, Dj, Scratch & Nightclub
The difference lies in the replaceable stylus assembly used.
BUT the real point that was kind of blurry between the other posts is whether there are differences between ALL the different styli choices.
i.e. are the following replaceable styli assemblies all totally different internally?:
Pro, Dj, Scratch, Nightclub S, Nightclub E.
So each of these replacement styli would give a different sound/performance etc.
?
O
Ortofon Inc
New member
Re: .........
The styli are all interchangeable, so of course the physical mounting part is the same. You mention the Niightclub E above along w/ the S and that performance will always be different than a S. S for spherical, shaped like a basketball. E for elliptical, shaped like a football. Think of the ends of the football as the part that traces the groove....and it does so more accurately than the sides of the basketball. So comparing the two is like apples to oranges.
As far as all the spherical... I was trying to keep it a liitle too simple in previous posts perhaps, stating that they were all essentilly the same except f/color. There are in fact minor differences, as I stated in my last post, that accounts for the differences that are in the specs. How audible these are in the real world of Pro use is another story. That's what account sf/everyones favorite choice.
For the record. The Pro s and Pro stylii are the earliest (oldest) models, which reflects their lower output of 5mv. The NC and DJ are the next newest @ 6mv and then the Scratch @ 7mv. There are other slight differences in the damping (flexibility) of the suspension material, as I mentioned. The Scratch having the most design consideration f/ the 1200 MKIII tonearm.
Again, there is a "family" similarity of sound that stretches across the product line and this is what differentiates one manufacturer's products from another.
Deft....yes to all your summary points.Deft said:
The styli are all interchangeable, so of course the physical mounting part is the same. You mention the Niightclub E above along w/ the S and that performance will always be different than a S. S for spherical, shaped like a basketball. E for elliptical, shaped like a football. Think of the ends of the football as the part that traces the groove....and it does so more accurately than the sides of the basketball. So comparing the two is like apples to oranges.
As far as all the spherical... I was trying to keep it a liitle too simple in previous posts perhaps, stating that they were all essentilly the same except f/color. There are in fact minor differences, as I stated in my last post, that accounts for the differences that are in the specs. How audible these are in the real world of Pro use is another story. That's what account sf/everyones favorite choice.
For the record. The Pro s and Pro stylii are the earliest (oldest) models, which reflects their lower output of 5mv. The NC and DJ are the next newest @ 6mv and then the Scratch @ 7mv. There are other slight differences in the damping (flexibility) of the suspension material, as I mentioned. The Scratch having the most design consideration f/ the 1200 MKIII tonearm.
Again, there is a "family" similarity of sound that stretches across the product line and this is what differentiates one manufacturer's products from another.
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D
DjBradleyBass
Guest
All I have to say is "I LOVE FRANK!!!"
B
bilen
Guest
Got another question for Frank.
I've been trying to get to the bottom of all aspects of cartridges and mounting them and various tonearms and TT's and so on.
I think i got most of it but there's one thing that i still wonder about, not sure if you're the right person to answer this.
I recently got a pair of the new Numark TT's and have had some worries about mounting the cartridges. Normally you use the overhang gauge to adjust the cartridge so that the stylus is parallell to the tangent of the record at the two null points.
With these tables this seems to be impossible because the s-shaped arm isnt "bended" enough. The only way for me to acheive the right angle is to mount tha cartridge angled in the headshell. So my question is if this will affect the performance both considering sound quality, record wear and skip resistance?
Don't know if you know this, but it would be nice to hear your opinion.
I've been trying to get to the bottom of all aspects of cartridges and mounting them and various tonearms and TT's and so on.
I think i got most of it but there's one thing that i still wonder about, not sure if you're the right person to answer this.
I recently got a pair of the new Numark TT's and have had some worries about mounting the cartridges. Normally you use the overhang gauge to adjust the cartridge so that the stylus is parallell to the tangent of the record at the two null points.
With these tables this seems to be impossible because the s-shaped arm isnt "bended" enough. The only way for me to acheive the right angle is to mount tha cartridge angled in the headshell. So my question is if this will affect the performance both considering sound quality, record wear and skip resistance?
Don't know if you know this, but it would be nice to hear your opinion.
O
Ortofon Inc
New member
bilen,
From your description, it sounds like you may be confusing "angle" w/ front to back adjustment. Can you, in fact, adjust the cartridge in the headshell so that it is straight and will have the stylus tip aligned in the guage correctly? If you can, then the overhang is correct.
If you can not, then I would adjust it as close as possible, rather than angling the cartidge position within the headshell. However, I wouldn't think that Numark would have an "s" shaped arm that would not allow the cart to adjust overhang correctly. (the straight arms that they supply w/their new models is, of course, another story) But again...in Pro use this is not as critical as it would be in Hi-Fi use. You certainly won't be aware of any increased distortion, skipping and absolutely no increase in record wear.
From your description, it sounds like you may be confusing "angle" w/ front to back adjustment. Can you, in fact, adjust the cartridge in the headshell so that it is straight and will have the stylus tip aligned in the guage correctly? If you can, then the overhang is correct.
If you can not, then I would adjust it as close as possible, rather than angling the cartidge position within the headshell. However, I wouldn't think that Numark would have an "s" shaped arm that would not allow the cart to adjust overhang correctly. (the straight arms that they supply w/their new models is, of course, another story) But again...in Pro use this is not as critical as it would be in Hi-Fi use. You certainly won't be aware of any increased distortion, skipping and absolutely no increase in record wear.
B
bilen
Guest
I tried to use front to back adjustment to get the correct overhang, but in order to get it right i would have to push the cartridge further in than the headshell allows (probably somethin like 1cm more). I myself was pretty shocked that they designed the tonearm like this. I haven't had the energy to do any calculations, but i think they did this to provide better skip resistance. I don't know if it's true, but i know that shure has a line in their mounting instructions that say if you angle the cartridge 20 degress inwards you get better skip resistance. Maybe it's this angle they want to achieve by designing the tonearm in this way.
O
Ortofon Inc
New member
bilen....I havn't seen a Shure insruction sheet, but it would make more sense to me if the suggestion was to angle the cart outwards (outer edge of the record) to approximate a straight tone arm. Reduce the tendency to skip but creates other adverse conditions.bilen said: