Difference between a Bb and A# (for example)

[vaboi]

Okay, I know they are the same piano key, and I'm asking this question for any notes like that. Why and when would I use one as opposed to the other? When would I say Db instead of D#? Thanks

 

[Hussani_Black]

Okay, I know they are the same piano key, and I'm asking this question for any notes like that. Why and when would I use one as opposed to the other? When would I say Db instead of D#? Thanks

It doesn't just depend on the key you're using. Depends on the other chords as well. You'll never hear a French horn blasting an off note during a symphony...but you may hear a oboe do it...it all depends on the sound you're going for bro...specific instruments can get away with it cuz their softer; I don't think anything's louder than a French horn...

Good luck.

 

[PlanetHitzProduction]

Example

B# is C - Cb is B

AKA

Enharmonics.

I assume this is what your are refering too

 

[SmoothKuik]

D flat and C sharp. depends on the scale you are playing. if you know how to read music, it will have the time signature and all the sharps or flats at the beginning of the staff.

 

[Relevent Muzik]

Example

B# is C - Cb is B

AKA

Enharmonics.

I assume this is what your are refering too

correctomundo... my piano teacher was saying this to the piano 1 students last week

 

[Delphine]

A note name is used only once in a scale.

Take this minor scale with 3 flats.

C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb

The first flat note is the Eb, which obviously is also a D# sometimes, we have already used D as a note in the scale, therefore the note must be E flat.

 

[SampleCore]

Delphine got it right.
I suggest you pick up a good book on music theory, I believe this is discussed quite early on in many books. The only one I can cite for sure is Writing Music For Hit Songs.

 

[Staggerlee]

It is to make it easier to read chords. You can write a regular triad as CD#G, but it will be harder to read, because when you look at it it seems like there is an interval of a second between the first 2 notes. If you wrote it as CEbG, it is easier to read intuitively (get it C-E-G - these have are intervals ofa third, and make sense as a triad chord right away).

 

[straypixel]

As PlanetHitz pointed out, you are talking about enharmonic equivalents. In 'sharp' keys - G to F# majors and E to D# minors, sharps are added to the key signature one at a time, but never flats. In 'flat' keys - F to Gb majors and D to Db minor, flats are added to the signature. In both 'sharp' and 'flat' minor keys, the notes of the scale VI and VII can become either sharpened or flattened depending on the direction of the melody. This is called the melodic minor.

Out of interest, before 'equal temperament' was invented, a Db and a C# would have actually sounded as different notes, and for violins and other fretless classical strings this is still partially the case.

Most of the above comments on this thread come pretty close to being all right but some have tiny little mistruths which I thought I'd point out.

StaggerLee - when written out, the interval between C and D# is a second: an augmented second. It is enharmonically equivalent to a minor third. Hence an augmented fourth = a diminished fifth and so on. Whether you call the interval itself major, minor, augmented or diminished depends on the context. Fourths and fifths are never major or minor; only perfect, diminished or augmented.

SmoothKuik - in the vast majority of written music the key and time signatures are written at the beginning of every staff of the first system. On the next system, only the key is rewritten; the time is only rewriten when it changes or at the beginning of a new movement.

Hussani_Black - French Horns are actually very quiet for brass instruments. Trumpets are the loudest of the brass. In any case, it doesn't really matter how loud the instrument is as to whether it can 'get away' with playing certain notes out of key. It depends on the direction the music itself is taking. It's called 'hamonic language' in traditional terms.

I hope this is helpful. I'm an academic student of music and so I can speak with some authority and experience on this issue.

 

[James McFadyen]

A note name is used only once in a scale.

Take this minor scale with 3 flats.

C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb

The first flat note is the Eb, which obviously is also a D# sometimes, we have already used D as a note in the scale, therefore the note must be E flat.

Good answer - and the correct one!

Oh, and Trombones are 5db louder than Trumpets - although if you have a quiet trombonist, the trumpeter will probably win!

 

[No_Worries]

It is to make it easier to read chords. You can write a regular triad as CD#G, but it will be harder to read, because when you look at it it seems like there is an interval of a second between the first 2 notes. If you wrote it as CEbG, it is easier to read intuitively (get it C-E-G - these have are intervals ofa third, and make sense as a triad chord right away).

Sorry, but this has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As others have mentioned, it has everything to do with the local key area.

 

[Hosey]

I just want to know if my understanding of why a note isn't named twice in a scale is correct.

When you're writing out music on a staff, writing something like a trill between G and G# would become an absolute mess with all the #'s and naturals, right? If you write it out as a trill between G and Ab you can just flatten the A once and leave it until the musician needs to play a natural A. Is this the reason why we don't name notes twice in a scale?

Another thing that maybe some of the academics can shed some light on: What do you do when you're using a weird scale? Like this one, I think it's a BeBop scale:
E F G Ab Bb B C# D
You obviously have to name some note twice in there (I chose B). Is this just an exception not to be concerned with? Would you just have to have a messy staff? I also don't know how many chords you can form exclusively with this scale, maybe it's mostly used melodically. And it's probably used mostly in music that doesn't get transcribed. I hope some academic can shed some light. I like to know the whole story.

 

[No_Worries]

I just want to know if my understanding of why a note isn't named twice in a scale is correct.

When you're writing out music on a staff, writing something like a trill between G and G# would become an absolute mess with all the #'s and naturals, right? If you write it out as a trill between G and Ab you can just flatten the A once and leave it until the musician needs to play a natural A. Is this the reason why we don't name notes twice in a scale?

Another thing that maybe some of the academics can shed some light on: What do you do when you're using a weird scale? Like this one, I think it's a BeBop scale:
E F G Ab Bb B C# D
You obviously have to name some note twice in there (I chose B). Is this just an exception not to be concerned with? Would you just have to have a messy staff? I also don't know how many chords you can form exclusively with this scale, maybe it's mostly used melodically. And it's probably used mostly in music that doesn't get transcribed. I hope some academic can shed some light. I like to know the whole story.

We don't name notes twice in a scale strictly because of definition. In Western music, scales have 7 pitches, each with a letter name. It's really just as simple as that.

Now...about that "BeBop" scale. We have a name for it: the octatonic scale. This means that it alternates 1/2 steps and whole steps. The way you have notated it is correct.

While it was rarely used during the common practice period, it gained popularity in the 20th century and is VERY common now. In fact, we had a joke in my undergraduate program that the scale was forbidden in our music, simply because it had become so cliche!

 

[Hosey]

We don't name notes twice in a scale strictly because of definition. In Western music, scales have 7 pitches, each with a letter name. It's really just as simple as that.

But there has to be some reason why someone defined it that way. I mean, I'm assuming that at some point someone had to have a reason to come up with something so logical. I could be completely incorrect when I think about it. People were devising scales before they were transcribing music, right? This is maybe just the way it's always been done. This has gotten me interested in looking up some history on written music...

In fact, we had a joke in my undergraduate program that the scale was forbidden in our music, simply because it had become so cliche!

That's exactly how I feel about I-IV-V progressions. Thanks for the info on that scale. As soon as I saw 'octatonic' it came back to me what it was called. I had no idea it was so common, to me most of the chords you can form with it, you could much more easily define with a different scale. But I guess that's why you have so many names for the same chord, so you can stay 'mentally' in key. Or something.

I mean, I'm assuming that at some point someone had to have a reason to come up with something so logical.

I kind of realize now how that statement answers itself in a way. But still, I want to know if there was an alternate reason.

 

[No_Worries]

But there has to be some reason why someone defined it that way. I mean, I'm assuming that at some point someone had to have a reason to come up with something so logical. I could be completely incorrect when I think about it. People were devising scales before they were transcribing music, right? This is maybe just the way it's always been done. This has gotten me interested in looking up some history on written music...

Well, you're right that people were singing before they were transcribing, but they had no terms for the notes they were singing. Early music notation literally just used black squares without any legerlines whatsoever. So if you saw a note higher than the preceding one, you just sang higher...but it didn't tell you exactly how much higher. Once the monks finally honed in on the 7-tone scale, a new notation system had to be devised. As such, 7 different syllabols were used. I'm not sure when ABCEDFG began, but someone just found that easiest for those countries that use the alphabet.

Countries in Asia and South America still don't use ABCEDFG. They use DO RE MI FA SOL LA SI DO. So ABCDEFG is by no means universal.

 

[Hosey]

Well, you're right that people were singing before they were transcribing, but they had no terms for the notes they were singing.

That's exactly what I was wondering. I'm running out of things to research when I get home from work. So, naming the notes didn't happen until people started writing them down. That's what I figured, but I was unsure. It didn't seem impossible that they might have been named before people started transcribing. But that would be kind of druidic...

Countries in Asia and South America still don't use ABCEDFG. They use DO RE MI FA SOL LA SI DO. So ABCDEFG is by no means universal.

Random trivia absorbed! Now I'll have something to bring up with the cute bartenderette I'll be hanging with tonight!

 

[vaboi]

Countries in Asia and South America still don't use ABCEDFG. They use DO RE MI FA SOL LA SI DO. So ABCDEFG is by no means universal.

Ah no wonder thats what I was always taught when I used to take piano lessons as a kid when I lived in Korea.. I still remember my teacher's accent haha

 

[James McFadyen]

Tonic Sol-fa (that is to say, Do, Re... etc.) is an old system and us westerners have updated it to the new system which goes as follows:

Tonic
Supertonic
Mediant
Sub-Dominant
Dominant
Sub-Mediant
Leading Note

 

[No_Worries]

Tonic Sol-fa (that is to say, Do, Re... etc.) is an old system and us westerners have updated it to the new system which goes as follows:

Tonic
Supertonic
Mediant
Sub-Dominant
Dominant
Sub-Mediant
Leading Note

Leading Tone in the USA, although I see you're from Manchester.

 

[Spicy]

ooh I'm going to have to post a response in this thread when I get home as there is a lot of misinformation.

first of all A# and Bb are not the same note except in the tempered system a piano has to use in order play the closest in can to being in tune in all keys. If you get a group of professional musicians together without a piano player they will play better in tune.

more later..........