Difference between a Bb and A# (for example)

[No_Worries]

ooh I'm going to have to post a response in this thread when I get home as there is a lot of misinformation.

first of all A# and Bb are not the same note except in the tempered system a piano has to use in order play the closest in can to being in tune in all keys. If you get a group of professional musicians together without a piano player they will play better in tune.

more later..........

I didn't want to go there since it doesn't really apply to what the original poster's intentions are (i.e. playing samples back on a keyboard). But feel free! Don't forget to mention how an F# sounds different in an F# minor triad vs. a Gmaj7 chord vs. a G#7 chord vs. etc.

 

[vaboi]

ooh I'm going to have to post a response in this thread when I get home as there is a lot of misinformation.

first of all A# and Bb are not the same note except in the tempered system a piano has to use in order play the closest in can to being in tune in all keys. If you get a group of professional musicians together without a piano player they will play better in tune.

more later..........

I didn't want to go there since it doesn't really apply to what the original poster's intentions are (i.e. playing samples back on a keyboard). But feel free! Don't forget to mention how an F# sounds different in an F# minor triad vs. a Gmaj7 chord vs. a G#7 chord vs. etc.

Actually guys, if you don't mind could you elaborate a little on that... like when an A# and Bb would actually sound different. So.. tempered system, is this like the normal way a piano is tuned, and there is another way? Or something else? Please Spicy, or No Worries let me know how this works... It's good learning something new everyday. Thanks

 

[straypixel]

Basically, the piano uses equal temperament out of necessity. During the last major period of harpsichord construction, it was necessary to adopt equal temperament to permit modulation to extremes of key. Up to the 16th century, the most common tuning system was Mean Tone, which permits very pure sounding thirds and keys not far distant from C major/A minor (which as you probably know are closely harmonically related).

During the 17th C, a range of systems were developed, along with keyboards with enough keys to physically permit their operation. Equal temperament offered many advantages, but obviously it is limited in that only one note on the entire keyboard can be perfectly tuned. But for the purposes of the early piano, it was perfectly sufficient; the result was Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier which was written as an exercise to demonstrate equally tempered keyboards.

Apart from in experimental pieces, pianos are now only ever tuned to Equal Temperament, purely because of the limitations of the number of keys that can be fitted within one octave. You may even see experimental instruments which have separate notes for enharmonic eqivalents (even though that phrase doesn't really apply outside the realm of Equal Temperament) such as the English Concertina, a 19th-century squeezebox in meantone with separate D#/Eb. No such problem for a violinist who has completely contiguous control over pitch. No pianist has the luxury of being able to retune his instrument for pieces in different keys. The vast majority of post-Baroque music modulates frequently enough to make the older temperaments obsolete.

I hope I haven't confused matters unduly here - I'm sure No Worries or Spicy will be able to elaborate on this. As for me, I'm a Bach nut.

 

[curlytree]

Okay, I know they are the same piano key, and I'm asking this question for any notes like that. Why and when would I use one as opposed to the other? When would I say Db instead of D#? Thanks

First of all...

Db and D# are different notes. They are NOT the same piano key. They are as different as A and G.

Db = C#
D# = Eb

Ab and G# are the same piano key. You can't use one opposed to the other beacuse they are the same tone. The same key.

You can use one name opposed to the other thought. It depends on the scale you are playing on or when you want to tune everything down half a tone.

Bottom line is that they are the same note.

 

[No_Worries]

Bottom line is that they are the same note.

...for his purposes.

 

[curlytree]

For every purpose. They are the same note. One note. Two names.

 

[No_Worries]

For every purpose. They are the same note. One note. Two names.

No.

This is why we were talking about tunings. Let's say you have a string player, and she's playing a piece in C major. B is the leading tone, and as part of the V chord, it's going to have a certain pitch. However, as part of the I7 chord, for example, it's going to have a different pitch. If the piece modulates to F# major, and you play a V7 (C#7), that B is also going to have a different pitch. This is the reality of it.

Even if you're on a piano, you can hear this difference (if your ears are good enough). Play a G major and sing B. Hold that B and then play a Cmaj7. You'll slightly lower your original B to match the one in the Cmaj7. If you play C#7, you'll alter your pitch once again.

 

[curlytree]

Come on now. Play a Ab and a G# on your piano. It's the same key. If the second time you pressed the key it sounded different (slighly lower as you say) send me your paypal account information and I'll send you a million dollars.

 

[No_Worries]

Come on now. Play a Ab and a G# on your piano. It's the same key. If the second time you pressed the key it sounded different (slighly lower as you say) send me your paypal account information and I'll send you a million dollars.

What you're missing is that harmonic context plays a VERY important role in this distinction.

However, I have the feeling that you are just being facetious at this point and refuse to learn something new. Ignorance is bliss, hey?

 

[curlytree]

What you're missing is that harmonic context plays a VERY important role in this distinction.

I am totaly aware of that.

But did you do the little experiment I told you to do? Did the two notes SOUND any different?

I know that there is a reason why those notes have two names. And I also know that in theory those two names are very important. But they sound the same. They are the same note. Same key. Same frequency. Same... Ahhh whatever.

 

[No_Worries]

I know that there is a reason why those notes have two names. And I also know that in theory those two names are very important. But they sound the same. They are the same note. Same key. Same frequency. Same... Ahhh whatever.

My last attempt:

They will ONLY be the same frequency on any instrument that uses fixed pitches. As someone else has stated, the piano, guitar, marimba, etc are FLAWED because they have fixed pitches.

So if you play a G major triad on your piano and then a C#7 on your piano, sure, the frequency of the B will be the same. However, if you're a trained musician, your brain will adjust to this error and actually perceive it as a different pitch.

If you're a singer, violinist, horn player, etc., you SHOULD adjust to these different frequencies for the B's in question.

I'm sorry that you refuse to believe that someone else might know more than you about this. I'm done.

 

[curlytree]

Ok maybe I don't get it. Maybe the only people in the world who can hear a C#7 on a piano the right way are trained musicians. Or a Ab and a G# are a different key on a violin but not on a guitar. My bad then.

Sorry.

 

[Spicy]

only because the piano is based on a tuning system created because of the instruments limitations.

in the conext of this site and forum, since everyone here is using fixed tuning keyboard based harmony yes they are the same note.

but if you were to start from c and go up by intervals of a perfect fifth, not a 5th on a piano which is slightly flat, you would find that by the time you got to b#, you would have adifferent note than c.

And as well if you had a well trained instrumentalist without a fixed tuning instrument in the picture you would find that the Ab in an fminor chord would be a slightly different pitch than a G# in an e major chord or else it would sound out of tune.

But for the purposes of the type of production going on by members of this forum, yes they are the same note.

 

[ALIASTrP]

The real reason why the same notes have to different key names is because of the scales they are played in and wat clef the song is composed in it has nothing to do with frequency and all of that other bullcrap its wat past musicians used for their standard back in the early days

 

[No_Worries]

The real reason why the same notes have to different key names is because of the scales they are played in and wat clef the song is composed in

Please give me an example of how the clef of a staff provides a means of distinction between Ab and G#.

This should be great.

 

[ALIASTrP]

different instruments play in different clefs so a Ab on a flute could posibly be a G# on a trombone

 

[No_Worries]

different instruments play in different clefs so a Ab on a flute could posibly be a G# on a trombone

Two things:

1) This is completely unrelated to what we were talking about.

2) Flutes and trombones are not transposing instruments, so you're wrong anyways.

 

[ALIASTrP]

ok thanks for tellin me ill go re-read and try to get a better understanding thanks for the help im tryin to teach my self how to understand written music i play by ear but i dont understand notes or anything dealing with written music

 

[No_Worries]

Look. I'm trying to help you guys, but for whatever reason I've been greeted with a brick wall.

I had to start somewhere, too. There was a time when I didn't know anything about theory. But after years of training, I know quite a lot. I joined this board to try to help, so I don't know what's with the attitudes around here.