Studio upgrade??? what do you think

Morning_Star said:
You are greatly misinformed. Apple hardware is made Foxconn and is made specifically for Apple computers. They do not use off the shelf parts. You are highly misinformed. How can you even say that when there are only 2 motherboards on the market that currently support thunderbolt? Each which cost over $300.
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Misinformed? Are you one of those Apple geeks who think they are all handmade by Steve Wozniak? Yes, right, it's all manufactured for Apple. The RAM, the drives, the HDs, the Intel CPUs, the AMD, cables, etc... Yes, it's all manufactured by Foxconn. You do understand that it's an ASSEMBLY LINE, right?

They ASSEMBLE pre-existing hardware or compile it from available parts.

"Major customers of Foxconn currently include:
Morning_Star said:
Wait, this is pointless. I just realized you have no clue what your are talking about. You do not need more than 8gb of ram to run Komplete. I run Komplete on my MBP with 4 GB and have zero latency or click and pops with my CPU not even barley being used.

I have looked up part for part to build a Mac Pro and it easily cost over $6k. Again, you have no clue what you are talking about. What about the screen? The Apple 24" cinema display is $550.
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First of, turn off your condescending tone, imbecile. This is not a kindergarten here and we don't measure dicks either. It's a discussion.

Second, NOBODY in their right mind would run a production on an iMac on a daily basis, having to load 2GB orchestra patches or several instruments into Kontakt, or even a couple of Omnisphere programs which can easily hit 2GB EACH for a multi-part patch. Not to mention THE LOADING TIMES.

What do you average on a standard 7200rpm HD? 50-60MB/s? And that's when it's doing nothing else but reading. Have fun waiting for 30-40 seconds to fully load ONE patch. You want to go through a library and actually try out sounds? Do you think we have the time to spend 50% of our day loading patches or sessions and instruments and tracks? LOL

You do realize that you need decent drives, because they themselves have big differences in time delays before they can go "into action"? And that's why it's favorable to have as much RAM as possible to be able to load the session once and not bother the drives with streaming/loading anymore?

You do understand that you sometimes have to load FOUR OR FIVE INSTANCES of a VST, right? Do you understand that I'm talking about a PROFESSIONAL SETTING?
You want to stream all of that (which happens in "normal" productions all the time) from your HD that your OS runs on? And at the same time maybe record to the same drive? And stream 60-80 tracks of 24/44-48kHz audio from the same drive? And let the OS handle all of that while writing to the slow harddrive? Are you kidding? And you are accusing me of "not knowing what I'm talking about"?

Yes, we used to pay THOUSANDS 10-12 years ago to buy UW160SCSI drives (edit:30+GB). So what? Back then, there were no alternatives and over the time their stuff got worse and worse and I simply had enough of the crap a while ago.

And yeah, about the MacPro, which the discussion isn't even about.

Yes, you are right. The 12-core MacPro starts at $3,800 and "the parts cost easily 6k". I just realized you are a troll. I actually know my shit and try to help. Damn, they charge you $150 (!!!) to go from 12 to 16GB of RAM. LOL The "big boy" comes with two $550 CPUs, $150 worth of RAM (12GBs) a whoopin' $60 1TB harddrive, a discontinued 5770 from 2009 (LOL) which lets say costs $150 dollars.............I mean we haven't even discussed the MacPro earlier, but lets play. Just for the sake of argument and that you maybe realize how delusional you are in your assessments.

Lets say I really build a 6k Mac Pro, ok?
  • Two 2.40GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon processors (12 cores)
  • 24GB RAM
  • 512GB solid-state drive
  • 2TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
  • 2TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
  • ATI Radeon HD 5870 1GB
  • One 18x SuperDrive
  • Apple Magic Mouse
  • Apple Keyboard
  • Keynote
  • Pages
  • Numbers
  • One on One


That's $6,057.97, but lets round it off to $6k for argument's sake, because the OS comes with the computer, ok?
And mind you, I will pay someone to put a comparable PC together, I just pick the parts. That's why I put the "One on One" service in. It's not the same, but at $99 we come to the same range of paying for assembling my custom PC.
Windows 7 comes with a bit of simple software, hence why I added Keynote/Pages/Numbers to the equation.

But you claim the parts on a Mac Pro which STARTS at 3,8k "are easily worth 6k". Are we agreeing on that, that that's your statement from above? So I even went as far as assembling a REAL 6k Apple, based on your 3,8k "worth 6k" delusion, in the Apple store. You see how fair I am in my argument? So you get another advantage (the one to see reality for what it is).

Ok lets play:

Two Intel Xeon E5645 Westmere-EP 2.4GHz LGA 1366 = 2 x $550 = $1100
ASUS Z9NA-D6 ATX Server Motherboard Dual = $300
Kingston 24GB (3 x 8GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) ECC Reg. RAM = 200$
512GB SSD OCZ Vertex 4 (so newest technology, not from 2010
mind you, even if Apple was using THIS EXACT SAME DRIVE, not the old Toshiba, they charge you an additional $850 (!!!) for it over the internal standard 1TB HD) = $450
2 x 2TB Seagate Barracuda XT (fast, not the old crap from Apple) = 2 x $150 = $300
EVGA Nvidia GTX 570 (beats the AMD above, but comparable) = $250
Power supply 800w (too many to choose from) = $150-200
Pioneer Black Internal BD/DVD/CD Writer = $90
What do you want to spend on a mouse and keyboard? Lets say $150

So we end up with much better parts, but a (for the sake of the argument) comparable workstation.

Endresult? (Not quite) $2990
So I'm the moron who doesn't know what he's talking about, yet a genius like you would pay ADDITIONAL THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS (!!!) (read: DOUBLE THE PRICE (!!!)) for a CASE and an OS.

Do you know now who's the one who "knows what he's talking about"?

I won't go into the iMac discussion, because you are obviously trolling.
Look up what the ATI Radeon 6750M costs. I rest my case.
 
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Apple has contracts with Foxconn to produce specific hardware. Just because other computers are built there doesn't mean that they are close to the same. And I never said show me the build for a Mac Pro. Show me how to build a computer with the same parts as an iMac for under $1,200. It can't be done. Period. And 2GB sample data in a patch doesn't require 2GB of ram to load. That's why plugins use disk caching to handle it.

I'm a carear recording engineer and computer programmer and I run my MBP every day without a single problem. So why wouldn't you be able to do the same with an iMac? Which many major studios do by the way. I know of at least 2 of the biggest ones in Atlanta do as well as a multi million dollar studio in NYC I've been in. Mac Pro's are not getting bought as much when iMacs are throwing down serious benchmarks.

Computer speed has little to do with the amount of ram, harddrive rpm, and cpu Ghz.

Computer speed really rests in the RAM speed and latency, harddrive read/write speed, data transfer connections, and CPU bottle necks.

You don't increase a computers performance by adding ram, and swapping in a 7200 rpm harddrive, and getting a faster CPU. You get a motherboard with SATA 6GB/s connections and throw in two Agility 4 120GB SSD's in a RAID 0 configuration, add faster low latency RAM, and a CPU with better threading.

You buy your $1,200 machine. I'll build a computer for $800 that will tear it a new one in boot time and shear processing power.

@pigheart. Just so you know you need to read what I wrote more clearly because you came off like an idiot. Pay attention to when I'm talking about iMac and Mac Pro. You got it mixed up. So maybe your rant was a little premature. I never said I would build a mac for $6k. I never said it would cost $6k to build an iMac. I said, now listen very carefully, that IF you built a MAC PRO part for part it could easily cost $6k. I did the math and tried it. I looked up the motherboard that is almost exactly the same ($750) and the two Westmere CPU's ($1,200 each), powersuppy is 1000w btw which cost about $500, case is easily $200, ect. That's over $4k right there. The CPU that you chose is not the right one. This one is more accurate. Overview for Intel BX80614X5650 Xeon X5650 2.66GHz 12MB L3 Cache Westmere Six-Core LGA1366 95W Server CPU-Retail - SabrePC.com

Now pay close attention again. I said you can't build an iMac for anything close to $1,200. Keyboard and Mouse ($150), Monitor ($550), Motherboard with thunderbolt & Z77 northbridge & ICH10 southbridge ($350), ect. That's $1,050 without the power supply, OSX, HardDrive, Videocard, or Case. So yeah, the mac's are a great deal. And the most important advantage is Windows and OSX on the same machine with full support and no problems that you get from trying to install OSX on a windows machine.

I know computers and I know recording. iMac's and MBP's are MADE for audio and video production. Not only do they have top notch parts, they have an operating system that is designed to handle large memory management that is required for it. And you also left out an very very important part of audio production performance. It matters more than CPU, RAM, or HD speed. The soundcard. A beast machine without a professional soundcard can produce music but I've seen pieces of crap running single cores and windows XP with 2GB of ram load up huge sessions and elaborate beats with tons of plugins when using a studio soundcard that is properly set up.

Now that you totally high-jacked Tone's thread by questioning my reasoning and knowledge about computers and audio production, which I've been doing for a living for almost a decade, we need to get back to the thread and help tone. I offered my expertise and opinion to help and you maliciously attacked me and my professionalism. I don't know who you are, but everyone that has been a member here a long time know's that I'm here for one reason. To help. Most importantly people starting out because I know what it's like to wastes thousands of dollars on the wrong decisions.

P.S. 5 years ago or hell even 2 years ago I would never put up an argument for Mac. But computers have reached a point of power where it's more about convenience and usability instead of raw processing power. I'd rather have a quality, rock solid product for a great price than buy something that will be outdated and worthless in 2 years. Look on the internet. People are still getting $500+ for MBP from 2007. You think there is a single windows computer that has that kind of re-sell value? I have an early 2011 MBP that was $1,800 new and I wouldn't sell it for less than $1,300 now and I could still get that much.

---------- Post added at 07:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 AM ----------

Also I never said to build a 6k mac pro from apple. I said it would cost 6k to build a real mac pro part for part. Lets make that clear.
 
A discussion would be simply worthless with someone who claims that a slightly modified Intel mainboard from 2009 costs $750 today. Sorry, but you are trolling yourself. $500 for a 1kW power supply? Jesus, you are living on another planet. I mean, use the internet and look up the actual product, the Apple specs and the actual prices.

And I've listed all the parts and the prices. If you are too lazy to look it up and compare it to the AVAILABLE specs of the Mac Pro that is listed @ $6,000 above, with outdated hardware, then I rest my case again.

I won't build another one just to show you that the margin is 10 or even 20% smaller when I up the configuration. That's Apples agenda. They want you to buy the entry point product, because the "top dogs" are less profitable.
The higher the configuration, the smaller the difference in price. That's a no-brainer.

It's still an outdated, way too expensive machine from 2010 with parts from 2008 and 2009.

Btw, it doesn't matter if you have drivers as stable as those on old RME audio interfaces that just routed ADAT to the boards for your XP 2GHz machine with 2GB of RAM.
If a patch that loads into your system (2GB - DAW - what the system needs) is heading over 1GB and you have a Kontakt patch and some plug ins, your system won't have the RAM to be able to keep up. Edit: and it also doesn't change the LOADING TIME one bit.

Look at my post above.

I didn't "high-jack" Fataltone's thread, I actually saw your ridiculous claim and wanted to warn people who may end up spending that much money on a machine that is worth 3.5k (I'm being generous), but ends up costing 6k @ Apple.

Please admit that you are trolling.

Your iMac for $1200? Sure, the margin won't be THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS again, but that's not what I said.

(Just in case you care. I didn't even mention the fact that YOU are buying ONE of each parts, but these are nowhere near the prices that Apple pays for it. Just some food for thought.)

I rest my case. People who can't read shouldn't make ANOTHER post which is full of bullsh** (see the top of my post).
 
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JeanLukPigheart said:
A discussion would be simply worthless with someone who claims that a slightly modified Intel mainboard from 2009 costs $750 today. Sorry, but you are trolling yourself. $500 for a 1kW power supply? Jesus, you are living on another planet. I mean, use the internet and look up the actual product, the Apple specs and the actual prices.
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No it's pointless to argue with you when you actually think current models use slightly modified motherboards from 2009. The socket type and chip set was first released this year. The Northbridge was introduced this year. This southbridge ws indroduced in the last 2 years or so. You might as well say that all motherboards are the same regardless of chipset, socket, northbridge, southbridge, EFI, and videocard.

All of your points are mute..
JeanLukPigheart said:
And I've listed all the parts and the prices. If you are too lazy to look it up and compare it to the AVAILABLE specs of the Mac Pro that is listed @ $6,000 above, with outdated hardware, then I rest my case again.
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No you listed cheaper versions of everything. Similar is not the same. This is just stupid.

JeanLukPigheart said:
It's still an outdated, way too expensive machine from 2010 with parts from 2008 and 2009.

Btw, it doesn't matter if you have drivers as stable as those on old RME audio interfaces that just routed ADAT to the boards for your XP 2GHz machine with 2GB of RAM.
If a patch that loads into your system (2GB - DAW - what the system needs) is heading over 1GB and you have a Kontakt patch and some plug ins, your system won't have the RAM to be able to keep up. Edit: and it also doesn't change the LOADING TIME one bit.
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Completely not true. I've been doing this for 10 years. Before there was more than 2GB in a machine. Before ProTools would even allocate more than 1.5GB.
JeanLukPigheart said:
I didn't "high-jack" Fataltone's thread, I actually saw your ridiculous claim and wanted to warn people who may end up spending that much money on a machine that is worth 3.5k (I'm being generous), but ends up costing 6k @ Apple.
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How does buying a $1,200 iMac end up costing $6k??
JeanLukPigheart said:
Your iMac for $1200? Sure, the margin won't be THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS again, but that's not what I said.
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Again you are mistaken for what I even said. I guess that explains your nonsense. You don't even understand my original post.

JeanLukPigheart said:
(Just in case you care. I didn't even mention the fact that YOU are buying ONE of each parts, but these are nowhere near the prices that Apple pays for it. Just some food for thought.)
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Since when can you build a computer for the cost of what Apple pays?

JeanLukPigheart said:
I rest my case. People who can't read shouldn't make ANOTHER post which is full of bullsh** (see the top of my post).
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I can't read? You still don't even understand my original post. So let me spell it out for you.

1) Building a Mac Pro would cost $6k. You had the wrong parts listed. Here is the important part. That was an EXAMPLE. Not the point. Just to show that Apple computers are not over-priced. The quality of hardware justifies the price.
2) Building an iMac would cost more than $1,200. Period, no way around it. The Apple monitor is $550. That leaves you with $750 to buy a case, keyboard, mouse, motherboard, power supply, ram, cpu, graphics card, ect. Not happening.
3) You are comparing specs. Not the actual hardware. I've actually said on many occasions that you can build higher performance pc for cheaper than a Mac but not a higher quality parts pc for the same money. Pay attention.
4) Apple is one of the most innovative companies on the planet constantly developing new products. The very idea that you think that they are using a motherboard from 2009 with modifications is laughable. They don't have any of the same chipsets that was used in 2009. The only thing that is the similar is the layout.
 
mac-vs-pc-02-1111-de.jpeg

Here is great way to sum it up. I found this doing more research. Mac wins most of the test and when it loses it's not by much. The only thing the pc crushed it in was youTube HD for some reason. But I'll take that loss with the knowledge I won't be getting viruses and the file structure is so much more stable. Data corruption happens easier with PC's which isn't good when you need to keep your session files working. How many people have had a FL Studio song file get corrupt? I know it's a very common problem. I also had it happen to some ProTools sessions before I switched to Mac. So I'd rather have piece of mind than youTubeHD video taking less CPU.

That graphic is found here.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...ws/mac-vs-pc-ultimate-laptop-lab-test#slide-1
 
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