Blatant stock reason samples in commercials and TV

[dvyce]

I feel you, its just how i think. When im talking to companies about Jingle music and what they want if its something i need to create i'll create it. On the other hand if its a Royalty free phrase and or loop that i have that will do the job im going for the easiest/quickest way to get it done. Put my focus into something more important.




That's not always the case with jingles trust me on that one. A lot of times they just want something to fill the space so it not bland.

True they can do it themselves but a lot of these people are lazy themselves and it quicker to pay someone to Que it for them/supply it. They are not musicians or producers.







I agree there but at the same time if the client likes it the client likes it no matter how good or bad you feel it is. I personally don't make Blip and trip hop so i can really care less about how it sounds just aslong as the client is pleased with it. Thats the main goal.



not at all but again if thats what the client wants thats what the client wants.







I personally dont think your hiphop clients would care what your doing over in the jingle world unless of course you supplied them with something you know they didn't feel. my Loop and poop work(jingles) hasn't messed up my clients/connects with any mainstream or locals that i've been dealing with over the last 3 years.

People that are important understand the markets most of them are doing it as well.

Now if you talkin about something big? Sitcom etc type show well of course you would put down your best but the rest of these commercials just want noise in the background that fit a Mood they are not looking for a top 10 hit

It seems that you are not doing major commercials (where "jingles" don't really exist anymore and the music you do is in direct competition with major tracks they are licensing... they want something that sounds like a record... they are much more sophisticated than you may think)

...and I don't know what sitcoms you are doing, because commercials generally pay much better than sitcoms... at least when you are talking major commercials vs network sitcoms.

I know the commercial industry... I have done literally hundreds of major national commercials...


and I have done big network shows as well as feature films...


and I am signed with a major label for the records i put out.




...and it is all the same... they all want the best music they can get...

Like i said, there are people doing low level stuff where they don't care about it and just want to finish their jobs and go home (to be honest with you, those jobs aren't even worth my time)...

And even they would rather have good original music... but they don't have the clout to get good music or the money to afford good music...

But other than that, music for commercials is very competitive. (I am talking about the commercials where you hear them and wonder "wow, what song is that?")

and it pays more than most other forms of music.


And they really do want a number 1 hit for their commercial.




...and you have to decide whether you want to get paid or get paid WELL... there is a big difference.

 

[TracAssassinLokk]

The ENTIRE chronic-what-cles of Narnia song from SNL was Reason stock Rex files...

 

[Cyko]

It seems that you are not doing major commercials (where "jingles" don't really exist anymore and the music you do is in direct competition with major tracks they are licensing... they want something that sounds like a record... they are much more sophisticated than you may think)

...and I don't know what sitcoms you are doing, because commercials generally pay much better than sitcoms... at least when you are talking major commercials vs network sitcoms.

I know the commercial industry... I have done literally hundreds of major national commercials...


and I have done big network shows as well as feature films...


and I am signed with a major label for the records i put out.




...and it is all the same... they all want the best music they can get...

Like i said, there are people doing low level stuff where they don't care about it and just want to finish their jobs and go home (to be honest with you, those jobs aren't even worth my time)...

And even they would rather have good original music... but they don't have the clout to get good music or the money to afford good music...

But other than that, music for commercials is very competitive. (I am talking about the commercials where you hear them and wonder "wow, what song is that?")

and it pays more than most other forms of music.


And they really do want a number 1 hit for their commercial.




...and you have to decide whether you want to get paid or get paid WELL... there is a big difference.

I get cha,

only companies i've done jingle work for are (i call em jingles because they are not full songs)
Bet,Upn,midway,EA,mtv2,couple car companies, At&T done a lot of them and i mean for the 30 or so seconds that its running were space fillers.
Most of them just wanted something that was catchy (not too hard to do) others didn't like music i put hours upon hours into they just wanted something simple. Could have picked either track would have gotten paid the same.

I do see where you're coming from though.

 

[swoopsoup]

there are many different levels of hierarchy in the arts (i.e., music, film, print)

There are the hacks who use pre-fab musical phrases in their tracks... and the hacks who use the overused photoshop filters in their visual art... and the hacks who make the art sold in the mall...


Then, at the other end of the spectrum, there are the people who are respected in their industries who create original works of quality art/music.



It is not accepted in the upper levels of the music industry.

The only people who accept it are the ones who don't know any better... and the ones who don't care about the integrity of their work.



The ones who are able to attain real success in this business are the ones who offer something creative and original.


So, it is not an "accepted thing in showbiz"... it does happen... but it is not "accepted"... If your client knew that chord pattern you based your track on was a big loop off a sample CD (or whatever) they would not be very happy.

People are hired to make original music because the client wants an original piece that has its own identity than they can call their own, where when people hear it, they know it relates to their project.

If the project is a low budget thing, or a "throw away" project... then they may not care. That is where people use "stock music" which costs a very small fraction of what an original composition costs... and that is where a client may not care if the music they bought is just a big loop... because they are just happy to have any music at all.

...but those are the projects that nobody is proud of... nobody is going around bragging about how great those projects are... those are the low level jobs that people just do because they have to.

Of course, sometimes a piece of music which is a big loop makes it into a "quality" project... but that is only because nobody knew it was just a loop...

and many times the hacks do not know they are hacks...

There are the hacks who make hacky music because they think it is good... and there are the people who make "hacky" music who know it is "hacky" but do it because they know they can sell it and they are satisfied with working at that level of the industry.


People just have to decide what kind of musician they want to be.

It is a personal judgement call.



Personally, I would rather be a "hacky" musician and make a good living from it than have a desk job...

But I would rather be an "original" musician who is respected by his peers over being a "hacky" musician.


It is all about what you are comfortable with and what you are capable of.

I don't have much to add, but this post, line by line is spot on. I agree 100% with what you are saying. It seems like alot of people don't want respect from their peers and more concerned about money. Looping = no respect.

 

[California]

whoever came up with these demo riffs etc for reason should be ballin for this, but no , he probably got paid a 1 time fee even though his stuff is playing all over

 

[Cyko]

whoever came up with these demo riffs etc for reason should be ballin for this, but no , he probably got paid a 1 time fee even though his stuff is playing all over

Ha true, thats true

 

[Bezo]

I'm late to the party, so pardon my responses if these things have been addressed. I'm responding as I go.

Why chop it if it fits what the client wants?(especially for Mtv) Why do extra work when you don't have too?

Love & respect for your art maybe.

You can build a house with cheaper grade materials... but should you?

not at all but again if thats what the client wants thats what the client wants.

I have a hard time believing a client would ask specifically for a beat made with stock riffs from Reason. But I haven't done this professionally yet. Can you give some insight on how these discussion/negotiations go, and how you interpret their needs and deliver preset riffs?

 

[dvyce]

I don't have much to add, but this post, line by line is spot on. I agree 100% with what you are saying. It seems like alot of people don't want respect from their peers and more concerned about money. Looping = no respect.

I'm late to the party, so pardon my responses if these things have been addressed. I'm responding as I go.Love & respect for your art maybe.

My response to both of you:

you are absolutely right.

BUT...

Many people don't care about respect from their peers...

Many people just want to make some quick money...

But what many of these people don't understand is that they might make some quick money, but they are not seeing the big picture. You need to have some work under your belt in order to get more work... you need to work your way up by doing small jobs before you get a chance to work on the big jobs. These small crappy jobs are the things that can help you get your opportunity to do bigger work and then, in return, those will give you the opportunity to get even bigger work than that... and so on, and so on...

But if you don't do an amazing job on those small jobs, nobody is going to hire you for bigger, more impressive jobs.

...and you will never get to make the REAL money.

The same way there are some people who are happy "selling beats" to the local guy for $50... then, on the other hand, there are the people who make music for the bigtime "real" records.


If you make some pre-made sample loop track to a guy for $50, do you really think you are going to move up to the "big leagues" when people hear that kind of crap with your name on it?

I have a hard time believing a client would ask specifically for a beat made with stock riffs from Reason. But I haven't done this professionally yet. Can you give some insight on how these discussion/negotiations go, and how you interpret their needs and deliver preset riffs?

...that is because a client would NOT ever ask for something like that.

I will tell you exactly how the discussion goes:

The client comes to you, usually with a commercial that is in the final stages of editing... they will give you a copy of this video to write along with.

They will have a call with you and describe what they need musically.

It goes something like this...

"So, as you can see from the video, the commercial starts out with that long shot of the car, and then the camera goes under the car and it comes up and we go to a lot of quick cuts until it pans over to the girl driving. That is the high point of the commercial and then it goes to the logo and back to the car again before it ends.

We are looking for a song with a lot of energy but it should kinda start out slow and mysterious until we get to the quick cuts... there should be some kind of transition into that high energy part. And there is going to be some voiceover from around 8 seconds until around 17 seconds, so leave some room for that... we will send you the voiceover... Then when it cuts to the girl, there should be some kind of 'hit' on her and then it comes back down into the logo section... and there should be some other positive shimmery element that hits on the logo.

The commercial is geared towards guys in their mid to late 20's... it should be a really cool sounding track... really legit sounding... modern... maybe a mix of some electronic instruments and some live instrumentation. It should sound agressive but still a bit 'fashion-y' and sophisticated.

when this commercial comes on TV, we want people to hear the music and look up to see what it is... we want a signature sound that people will hear and know it is for this commercial. We want people to wonder 'hey, what song is that?'

You know what I mean... you are the music guy. And could we get maybe 5 versions by end of day tommorrow? Great."



and you ask them specific question you have regarding style and types of sounds... mention a few artists that you are thinking they be wanting it to be in the style of. It is then your job to figure out exactlky what they are trying to say and what they want, even though they may not know how to put it into words.


They want a "real" sounding track, and they want it to be original and their own music.

If you said to them "OK... I have the perfect sampled bassline from Reason that I can use"

They will say to you "what are you talking about? We want original music!"



It is also your job to give them what they REALLY want, even if they don't know how to explain it to you...

For example, if they say "we need a rap song that sounds like a real song and it needs to sound like something brand new that you would hear on the radio, because this commercial is for kids whore 16-20 years old, so we need something very modern, very current, very legit! you know, like MC Hammer... that age group loves him... and maybe put a crazy guitar solo in there"

...if that is what they say, you shouldn't say to yourself "OK, that is what the client wants"...

You should tell them that kids DON'T like MC Hammer anymore and that rap songs DON'T generally have guitar solos... It is your job to explain to them the style of rap that is currently popular and it is your job to give it to them.

YOU are the music expert.

THAT is why they hire YOU.

Just because you have a client who doesn't know any better, doesn't mean you should not give them the best music possible.


Even if they say to you "It needs more energy... you should add a drum loop on that"...

...you should tell them "Actually, I should probably program a different drum part or a more active shaker part on top... because drum loops like that are really very mid 1990's sounding.

Then they will probably say something like "OK, yeah, I don't know... it just needs more energy. You know what to do."





So, very often, the client doesn't know exactly what he wants. If you give them a synth pattern preset from Reason, they may be OK with it...

...but that is because they trust you and trust that you are giving them the best possible music...

They don't know they are getting a pre-made loop.

...and they shouldn't have to ask every time they get music from someone "this is not a loop, is it?"


So, if the conversation goes something like this "Dude, I don't care, this is a little crappy local spot... I just want to get it out of my hair... just throw a loop on it or something... it is a crappy commercial that nobody will see anyway. Just give me anything you have laying around."

If the client says that to you, then I guess they don't care... but that is not the way it usually goes.

(but even if they did say that to you... you should still use it as an opportunity to do something good that you can [ut on your "reel" to help you get more jobs in the future.)

 

[Darreal]

Worse than this, I've heard stock Reason loops in actual records. If you've heard the sound on Yung Joc's "Patron" (there's pretty much one other sound besides the drums), they used a loop for that, and then it was REUSED for an 8Ball & MJG song..

 

[Cyko]

I have a hard time believing a client would ask specifically for a beat made with stock riffs from Reason. But I haven't done this professionally yet. Can you give some insight on how these discussion/negotiations go, and how you interpret their needs and deliver preset riffs?

Didn't say they would specifically ask for a beat made with an apps preset loops. There have been times (couple actually) Where I've done music for companies spending a good week or so on a project.

I'd submit what I had along with some random tracks (you never know what people will like) and there have been times when the company would pick something i'd consider wack. Like for an example a reason rex loop with some drums and a filter on it. that's why i said "if thats what they want thats what they want"

Other times the company would tell me what they had in mind. Some know what they want they just can put it together and others don't like Dvyce stated.

Very few of my convo's are like the one Dvyce made an example of most of them are

"we need such and such by the end of week"

a lot of shows I've had music on are tv reality shows


...if that is what they say, you shouldn't say to yourself "OK, that is what the client wants"...

You should tell them that kids DON'T like MC Hammer anymore and that rap songs DON'T generally have guitar solos... It is your job to explain to them the style of rap that is currently popular and it is your job to give it to them.

YOU are the music expert.

THAT is why they hire YOU.

True, very true (im guilty of a lot of that) I've done that before (giving my opinion) telling a company what i know and i've lost money that way (not all but some)

Dvyce everything you mentioned is onpoint..

 

[Bezo]

Didn't say they would specifically ask for a beat made with an apps preset loops. There have been times (couple actually) Where I've done music for companies spending a good week or so on a project.

I'd submit what I had along with some random tracks (you never know what people will like) and there have been times when the company would pick something i'd consider wack. Like for an example a reason rex loop with some drums and a filter on it. that's why i said "if thats what they want thats what they want"

But you made the choice to submit Reason rex loops. No offense, but I have too much pride in my work to even "create" something like that, much less submit it to someone that hired me.

Other times the company would tell me what they had in mind. Some know what they want they just can put it together and others don't like Dvyce stated.

Very few of my convo's are like the one Dvyce made an example of most of them are

"we need such and such by the end of week"

a lot of shows I've had music on are tv reality shows

A week is a good amount of time to create. I can't imagine resorting to prerecorded loops. I could see if they needed something in a day, but even then, I'd just rearrange some tunes I already had.


But again, I haven't worked professionally on that level yet. I've only worked with a few unsigned artists, and I'm currently writing/producing for someone that had a CD out. So I can't say with absolute certainty what I would do under those circumstances, especially if that was my sole source of income, but as an aspiring professional, I can't imagine resorting to that.

 

[SampleCore]

They're not making commercials to please aspiring/established music producers. Let them use stock sounds.

 

[b onix]

Is he talking about pre recordered samples or preset sounds becuase I saw a langerae commercial earlier and at the end it had a reasone dr rex loop. Any one see that?

 

[Mr. sickVisionz]

Why would you get mad that someone is using the reason sound back. I think Propellerhead makes it in hopes that people will find it useful.

 

[D'FunK]

I agree with cyko, if you pay for it then you can use what ever sound come with it. Not so much for music production but for tv work, why not!

 

[Bezo]

Why would you get mad that someone is using the reason sound back. I think Propellerhead makes it in hopes that people will find it useful.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but if so...

I'm not mad. I could really care less how someone else makes their music. But this is a discussion board, and I like discussing music. For me, the bottom line is that my pride, love & respect for my craft would never allow me to use pre-recorded licks. Chopping and minipulating a sample(which I also don't do) is one thing. Using a pre-recorded lick is on another level.

At what point can you still say you created the tune? Writing a tune means you came up with the melody and harmony. If you use someone else's melody & harmony, what have you done but add drums?

I agree with cyko, if you pay for it then you can use what ever sound come with it. Not so much for music production but for tv work, why not!

Why would you get mad that someone is using the reason sound back. I think Propellerhead makes it in hopes that people will find it useful.

I think this thread is more about the pre-recorded licks, not the sounds.

D'Funk, why do you feel there's a difference in producing music for tv or cd? The only difference I can see is that one is played on tv and the other is played on cd.

 

[D'FunK]

I think the quality of tracks produced for a club would be better than a track created for an advert, I'm not talking about movie scores but tv ads maybe?

 

[dvyce]

I agree with cyko, if you pay for it then you can use what ever sound come with it. Not so much for music production but for tv work, why not!

I think you are missing the point.

You CAN use it... but if you DO you will get no respect in the industry.



...and there is no difference between music on a CD and music on TV. It is all music and the client always wants the best music possible. If you make second-rate music for CD's or for TV, you won't get very far in your career.

That is a fact.

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By the way, just a little thing about the loops and sounds that you can buy and that come with these programs...

There are 2 kinds of people who make these loops and sounds:

1. the person who is not good enough to make music themselves that anybody wants to hear (they give you their best work, but unfortunately their best work is not that good)

2. the person who IS good enough to put out top selling CD's... but sells their "throw-away" stuff on sample CD's and as sound sets (they are going to use all their good stuff for their own albums)

 

[D'FunK]

That is so true, I personaly don't use loops, I create them using Reaktor 5.1. But thought if someone can make good of them, then why not!
If you think of it as cheating then so be it but we all take influences and create something that we consider to be musical.

 

[vaboi]

Is he talking about pre recordered samples or preset sounds becuase I saw a langerae commercial earlier and at the end it had a reasone dr rex loop. Any one see that?

uhh.. was Adriana lima in it? if so... I wish I saw it.