Why do Reason beats sound so thin?

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Shaw-King

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Hi, I've been making beats for about a year and a half now. I started out on FL but I've been using Reason 2.0 since May 2003. Anyway, I always compare my beats to professional beats (usually compare with 50 Cent's In Da Club, Chingy's Right Thurr, 2pac's Still Ballin' and several others) and I notice that those beats always sound more crisp, more punchy, and wider in their stereo image than my beats. It doesn't matter if I pan the same instrument in two channels all the way left and all the way right, Reason just doesn't sound as wide as these pro beats. Also, while I'm working with Reason, I think that the drums are nice and punchy but when I play a pro beat I realize that they are flat. BTW, I do compress and EQ whatever needs to be compressed and EQ'd but I still have these problems. Can anyone offer any advice as how to improve the quality of beats made in Reason. I know a lot of people use Reason and Cubase together to make beats. Can I ask what is it exactly that you use Cubase for? Thanks.
 
The thing... Reason just aint enough.

Its a POWERFUL mixing tool (only one I use) and EQ and Compression are good in moderation, but the fact remains that its a MIXING tool. The reason yours dont sound as pro/loud/punchy/wide enough (trust me I know this, I looked for the same answer for a LONG time) is because you need external programs/hardware to engineer and master it all.

Just compare loudness. Yours are probably all soft, or clip. Clipping is a huge problem that I hear with alot of FL studio users because (I assume) that they think that if they just turn it up, it'll all just get louder. Its not the case.

You probably already know all this, but just to tell you, you do need to use more tahn just reason for professional sound. I have acid pro and cool edit pro besides reason, and am looking into both cubase (awesome I hear) and the waves plugin (also awesome, i hear) for mastering/engineering.

Also, I got a link to a tutorial (pretty extensive and thourough, and made for techno but applies to anything) HERE if you want it... its a guided process through reason/cool edit/cubase. Check it out it helped me immensly.

{EDIT} BTW, could you send a link to some of your tracks? I could maybe (or not) help you out more if you need.
 
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First of all you dont need hardware to do anything to that guy above. Most people use Software (Pro Tools) to mix and master entire albums. Second of all the reason your drums sound thin compared to a professionally mixed cd is because you're not a engineer and dont have the ear for it. You're trying to compare yourself to guys that have been mixing and mastering tracks for 20 + years.
 
You already mentioning hard panning, so this article on using two mono channels instead of a single stereo probably won't be of use to you. It does mention this as a solution to Reason's "flat" sound and explains why it thinks it's the case, though.

I keep hearing a lot of people who otherwise seems perfectly sane saying that they find the Reason sound improves when it's ReWired in through a decent host sequencer, Logic and Cubase both are mentioned a lot with regard to this. I'm currently ReWiring it through Nuendo and it does seem to be slightly 'better'...but I'm not entirely convinced it isn't just me looking for a difference.

I sketch out my tracks in Reason (when using it), then ReWire in through Nuendo for mixing and adding VSTis & effects. I find, personally, that what Reason lacks in 'quality' it more than makes up for in 'tightness'.

The Unofficial Reason FAQ has a lot of interesting references to articles on just this topic, along with suggestions on how to give it a 'phatter' sound.

Finally, inserting a Screamer 4 with the MasterCompress patch selected and a COMP-01 between the mixer and the hardware interface can improve the output...I'm not sure of the exact settings recommended for the COMP-01 but I can check them from home, PM me if you're interested.

I hope this helps.
 
alex23 said:
... I keep hearing a lot of people who otherwise seems perfectly sane saying that they find the Reason sound improves when it's ReWired in through a decent host sequencer ...
Click to expand...
Add me to the list.

This is because of several technical decisions made by Propellerheads, having to do with Digital to Analog conversion. The most obvious and measureable thing is that Reason is something like 3db quieter when running or rendering on its own. Rewiring through another host seems to correct this.
 
dansgold: Cool...I don't trust my ear enough yet to have said decisively one way or the other but I'm glad it is, since I like the workflow I've got going now with Nuendo & Reason. I just love Nuendo's EQ, very sweet.
 
Wow to all those that posted links to articles, thank you. The information helped me out.
 
reason is in fact a very good tool for either a beginner or a professional. rewired through a decent sequencer is really the way to go. i got it going through cubase sx and i always feel like i have more than enough options open to me.
 
First of all, I would like to thank everybody that replied. Secondly, I have to ask...I know ReWire and ReCycle are Propellerhead programs intended to be used with Reason but I'm not familiar with them. Could someone please explain what it is you are doing when you talk about ReWiring thru another program (I have Cool Edit Pro, Acid Pro, Cubase SX, and Wavelab if that helps any). Has anyone tried exporting each instrument seperately and then mixing down in a multitrack like Cubase or Cool Edit Pro? I haven't done this yet but I intend to try it and see if it makes a difference. And in regards to the post about me comparing my ears to those of seasoned pros: I realize that, but still...do the drums sound more punchy because of EQ? Is it because of the way they're mixed? Or are there effects and such added to them? (probably a combination of all, huh?)
Thank you
 
The drums sounding more punchy can be a combonation of many things. The kits you load in are not good, You cant Eq your drums right, You dont know how to layer drums right. If you load wack kits into anything a MPC, Sp12, Reason, anything the drums will sound thin. You have to know how to Eq your drums and layer them to make them hit hard and sound anyways you want. It has nothing to do with the equpitment at all.
 
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hey shaw

rewire can be used to control reason through another sequencer - for example, you could use cubase sx to control a device such as an NNxt sampler, and write midi information for it.

and yes, if you export each individual track as wavs and then import them into cubase, you will definitely be a step closer to getting a better sound. now look at all your options that suddenly open - mainly plug in support. but, it can be time consuming, which is one of the benefits to rewiring reason to cubase - the tracks are already there.

like i said before, reason is a beautiful piece of software that combines many resources. it just needs a little help from outside sources.
 
Shaw-King: ReWire is a way for providing some control over Reason from any software that's a ReWire host, such as Cubase SX.

You can also trigger any of the Reason devices from within Cubase by setting up a midi channel and directing it's output to the device you want.

When they're ReWired, starting the sequencer will start Reason, so you'll have both playing simultaneously. If you want to tweak individual Reason channels, you might need to export them first, then just import them as audio channels in Cubase... I don't think the Cubase/Nuendo mixer provides control over individual Reason channels, but someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

AlurOne!: I'm running basically the same software setup, only with Nuendo rather than Cubase. Are you running v2? Have you used the stacked take recording? I can't find anything similar in Nuendo 2, unfortunately... which is a shame, since it's a damn nice implementation.

Out of curiousity, do you supplement Reason with any VSTis? I'm trying to restrict myself to z3ta+ and RMIV at the moment but I'm always interested in what others find compliments Reason...
 
Shaw-King said:
... I know ReWire and ReCycle are Propellerhead programs intended to be used with Reason but I'm not familiar with them. Could someone please explain what it is you are doing when you talk about ReWiring thru another program (I have Cool Edit Pro, Acid Pro, Cubase SX, and Wavelab if that helps any). ...
Click to expand...

Well, first a clarification: ReWire is not a program, it's a technology - developed by Propellerheads - that is built in to a lot of programs these days. You can't go out and "buy a copy of ReWire" anywhere.

ReWire is used to link two (or more) programs together so that they both start/stop at the same time, the tempos are sync'd, you mix the sounds of the slave programs thru the mater host program, etc.

I often use Tracktion as my "Master ReWire Host" with Reason ReWired to it. I can run my Reason instruments through Tracktion's VST effects, and record audio or VST instruments in Tracktion synchronized with whatever is happening in Reason.

ReCycle is a program used to chop up samples in a way that they can be looped and re-timed to be in sync with whatever tempo you select. The "Dr. Rex" loop player in Reason plays ReCycle-type loops, as do a lot of other sample-looping programs.
 
alex23 - i actually just started getting acquainted with cubase. oh, and its sx not sx2. but anyway, i'm not sure about the stacked take recording - i'll have to look in the manual for it.

i dont use many VSTi's, but thats only becuase a. i haven't had cubase for very long and i'm still in the stage where almost everything is new, and b. becuase i haven't had the money to buy any (which actually just changed recently, thank goodness!). but i have used the superwave p8 which, as you may know, is a highly regarded free VSTi. i have gotten some sounds out of that which i have used with my reason set up.

more VSTs on the way though - i'm really interested in the spectrasonic line, especially the trilogy and atmosphere, as i have heard nothing but good things about them.
 
Thanks, I'm always curious about other people's processes, esp. if they're using similar setups.

I love the Spectrasonic ROMplers, although I can't really justify Atmosphere after having picked up Absynth2 and while I love the idea of Stylus, I can't give up making my own beats. Trilogy though...yeah, it'd be nice to feel like I've finally got my source for basses sorted out :)

I keep hearing good things about the Superwave P8, I'll check it out tonight.

Cheers!
 
the reson your beats dont sound like ones that are on finnished CDs is because of mixing and mastering. ReWiring Reason to pro tools will help a little through dithering and downsampling, but whether you use ReWire or just export the loops from reason and then import them into Pro Tools you will get the same effect. There is no digital to analog conversion because all the information you are transfering/recording stays in the computer, so you dont have to worry about any added noise. If you want your music to sound better, study and compare your music to others. There is an amazing amount you can learn about mixing which is the key making your music sound better and "commercial". Mastering is such a specific process, thats those engineers have had 10+ years of experience at least, so I wouldnt worry about doing that yourself if you are gonna complete any projects of yours. Good luck to you
 
Ive read on peff's site that if you mono your track it will sound phatter. Heres an example how to do this.

I will use Pekpek track as an example, now all you have to do is make another copy of this track(pekpek track) then pan one track all the way to the left
-67 and pan the next track(duplicate) all the way to the right +66. Try that and let me know if you hear any difference.
 
An interesting addition to this that I just read in SOS:

Set up a mixer exactly as you described, but run another mono left, phase inverted, and panned fully right, and another mono right, phase inverted, this time panned fully left. Drop the faders down and slowly bring it up and apparently it extends the stereo field noticeably.

Now, the article is referring to a hardware mixer but the theory should apply to the Reason environment. However, I've no idea how to actually apply a phase inversion :)

Anyone?
 
Oh ok...so ReWire is a technology and not a program...well that clarifies things a little. That's basically why I mentioned exporting each track individually. Thanks a lot guys!!! I'm gonna go try and ReWire Reason into Cubase SX and see what kind of things I can do. Also, about VSTs...I heard of them ever since my Fruity Loops days but they never interested me until now...to tell you the truth, I have no clue what they are. Do they contain sounds or do they alter sounds? Oh, by the way, as an update, I've been comparing my beats to even more commercial releases and I've noticed I've been able to get a better sound than Nas' Book of Rhymes (produced by Alchemist). I still find Chingy's Right Thurr instrumental as one of the best mixes I've heard (although the snare/clap might be a tad loud). I've found one of my main problems with my drums have been that they've always been too loud so when they're limited they sound messed up. I've recently started to correct. It'll take time but I'm getting better everyday. This site is great. Thanks again.
 
shaw king

VST stands for Virtual Studio Technology. There are also VSTi, in which case the i stands for instrument. an example of a VSTi would be a soft synth such as spectrasonics atmosphere. you can use a VSTi with a sequencer like cubase.

a VST plug in could be anything from an effect unit (like areverb or a delay) to an EQ unit.

if you search for VST on the internet you will find a million of them. this is why rewire becomes so valuable - you can use reason, but use VSTs on the tracks which are not available in reason.

hope this clears things up a bit - keep asking questions, you're in the right place for it.
 
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