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engineroom
New member
i am a cynic and like to argue
S
Scott Fitlin
Guest
Well, you got the right one! If I dont agree, or I dont like something Ill go to finish.
Carry on, I admire your conviction, but Ill argue you till.................
Carry on, I admire your conviction, but Ill argue you till.................
J
Johnpuga1982
Guest
Yup, I have to say, Urei does sound better then Rane, I am listening to my Urei right now. 
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engineroom
New member
don't worry guys i will go and argue with the whole Richard Long school of thought
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Scott Fitlin
Guest
But I will not argue the Richard Long school of thought with you! I challenge you to come to the Eldorado, and hear this system, and then tell me it doesnt work!
Go to Wavemusic and read the thread, started by others, about Eldorado Bump Car Sound!
It moves ya, physically, and emotionally!
Go to Wavemusic and read the thread, started by others, about Eldorado Bump Car Sound!
It moves ya, physically, and emotionally!
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engineroom
New member
we can resume next week - i actually have to go and DJ tonight and tomorrow!
J
Johnpuga1982
Guest
engineroom said:
Dam he's right, I got that same problem. Cheers.
S
Scott Fitlin
Guest
how bout you make a trip out here once during this summer and hear the monster?engineroom said:
Then after you hear this, you go DJ at the club you are working at and then you will truly know and understand!
T
tonytoneetoni
New member
Hello gentleman, my respects to you all.
I'm nothing but a poor newbie in this forum, which I happened to find during a "bozak urei rane" search in Google. I followed (at the start of this thread) the link to Wave, but was afraid of being torn out to pieces at THAT forum, so I returned to this one, and felt, well, compelled to express my humble opinion in this forum, so I logged in, and, here it goes... (sighs) oping not to spark any flames, just hope it is entertaining.
I was a hobbist, dj and sound tecnician for almost 15 years, until I got married and (although I still love the audio stuff) my priorities changed and I retired (I already had a job), however, I have "stone-etched" in my memory one great night-club I used to visit as often as I could in my younger years...
The characteristic that I most loved and still recall of that club (which was excellent in all the aspects) was the sound, it had a cerain warmth you could be standing in front of the loudspeakers and your ears would not even resent it. I remember the mixer was a Bozak (they changed the pots from time to time as the DJ was a "very live one"), they got two large VU meters beside the mixer, they had a Urei Dynamics-Processor, Urei Electronic Crossover, 30 McIntosh Amplifiers (YES! 30!!) 15 working and 15 for "backup"., the main speaker system was fully comprised of Altec Lansing boxes (ooh, those deep basses), with two fill-in humongous Urei boxes, and the booth monitors were TWO KLIPSCHORNS!!, and all of the EQ's were Ureis.
As I stated, the most memorable thing was the sound characteristics. I could argue that I haven't (nor will) heard anything like that, but I'm pretty sober, and aware, of the following:
1).-Sound reproduction (as well as image display) tends to be purer with the technical advances (even the measurement instruments tend to be more discriminating), whether we like it or not. Although I couldn't make my father stop arguing that his archaic RCA radio was better than most modern boomboxes, (yes, dad, it was made of real wood, yes dad, it was made completely by hand, yes dad, it could still be working if the roof hadn't collapsed during that storm, BUT that was then, times change, stuff changes, only memories remain (and those can not be changed nor argued at)).
2).-Whether I like it or not, time passes by, and my ears are not what they were then, I may have good memory, but my ears ARE DEFINITELY different, (they are even larger now for christ's sake!), and, sorrily, there is no way to do a comparo, so I better not argue.
3.-The Bozak had "that warm touch" in its sound, and so did the McIntoshes, although I know that any good Crest, or Crown amplifier outperforms the McIntosh specs, however, the purists follow them for their "warmth" which as some of you folks stated: it is some sort of distortion (or subtle deviation from the original waveform).
4.-Human ears have not a "flat response", so anything flat sounds not too-comfortable to our ears, so if I A-B two devices, one that "ads warmth and bottom", and the other one it is a horribly flat, modern, electronic, devil's machine, I would like the first one most, I'm human!
5.-Sure, they were made by hand, with the best of its time, so was Ford's model T, but that doesn't make me believe that my neighbor's 2002 Corvette is an evil, low quality machine.
...WHICH takes me to the point of my argument: There is workhorse quality in both, but the sound caracteristics are subjective to our brains.
PS:I still own my old Rane MP24 (sorry, not rotary), from one of the first production lots. Never had a failure, never complained, lots of drive, lots of flexibility, fully-regulated power supply, love it, no matter what. I don't know about today, but in those first days, Rane made pretty darn good workhorses.
-"It's my opinion, ...and I could be wrong" -Dennis Miller
I'm nothing but a poor newbie in this forum, which I happened to find during a "bozak urei rane" search in Google. I followed (at the start of this thread) the link to Wave, but was afraid of being torn out to pieces at THAT forum, so I returned to this one, and felt, well, compelled to express my humble opinion in this forum, so I logged in, and, here it goes... (sighs) oping not to spark any flames, just hope it is entertaining.
I was a hobbist, dj and sound tecnician for almost 15 years, until I got married and (although I still love the audio stuff) my priorities changed and I retired (I already had a job), however, I have "stone-etched" in my memory one great night-club I used to visit as often as I could in my younger years...
The characteristic that I most loved and still recall of that club (which was excellent in all the aspects) was the sound, it had a cerain warmth you could be standing in front of the loudspeakers and your ears would not even resent it. I remember the mixer was a Bozak (they changed the pots from time to time as the DJ was a "very live one"), they got two large VU meters beside the mixer, they had a Urei Dynamics-Processor, Urei Electronic Crossover, 30 McIntosh Amplifiers (YES! 30!!) 15 working and 15 for "backup"., the main speaker system was fully comprised of Altec Lansing boxes (ooh, those deep basses), with two fill-in humongous Urei boxes, and the booth monitors were TWO KLIPSCHORNS!!, and all of the EQ's were Ureis.
As I stated, the most memorable thing was the sound characteristics. I could argue that I haven't (nor will) heard anything like that, but I'm pretty sober, and aware, of the following:
1).-Sound reproduction (as well as image display) tends to be purer with the technical advances (even the measurement instruments tend to be more discriminating), whether we like it or not. Although I couldn't make my father stop arguing that his archaic RCA radio was better than most modern boomboxes, (yes, dad, it was made of real wood, yes dad, it was made completely by hand, yes dad, it could still be working if the roof hadn't collapsed during that storm, BUT that was then, times change, stuff changes, only memories remain (and those can not be changed nor argued at)).
2).-Whether I like it or not, time passes by, and my ears are not what they were then, I may have good memory, but my ears ARE DEFINITELY different, (they are even larger now for christ's sake!), and, sorrily, there is no way to do a comparo, so I better not argue.
3.-The Bozak had "that warm touch" in its sound, and so did the McIntoshes, although I know that any good Crest, or Crown amplifier outperforms the McIntosh specs, however, the purists follow them for their "warmth" which as some of you folks stated: it is some sort of distortion (or subtle deviation from the original waveform).
4.-Human ears have not a "flat response", so anything flat sounds not too-comfortable to our ears, so if I A-B two devices, one that "ads warmth and bottom", and the other one it is a horribly flat, modern, electronic, devil's machine, I would like the first one most, I'm human!
5.-Sure, they were made by hand, with the best of its time, so was Ford's model T, but that doesn't make me believe that my neighbor's 2002 Corvette is an evil, low quality machine.
...WHICH takes me to the point of my argument: There is workhorse quality in both, but the sound caracteristics are subjective to our brains.
PS:I still own my old Rane MP24 (sorry, not rotary), from one of the first production lots. Never had a failure, never complained, lots of drive, lots of flexibility, fully-regulated power supply, love it, no matter what. I don't know about today, but in those first days, Rane made pretty darn good workhorses.
-"It's my opinion, ...and I could be wrong" -Dennis Miller
L
louped garou
Guest
Welcome to the forum, you should pop into teh wave forum, a lot of the same people (so beware here also )
What I dont like about the rane 2016, as compared to my Bozak (which is in used, but good condition -- not one of the restored ones though... if i only had the $$$$) is the lack of bass. to get a decent bump going, you really need to EQ a bit heavy for the response. and then the thing clips....how evil
) My solution is to obtain some high quality external EQs which i will run in the signal chain. (still working on this one...)
The sound reproduction that comes out of the Bozak is Heaven on Earth...IMHO
I just really prefer the sound characteristics of the Bozak, but like you stated, that is personal preference. on the same line i prefer to listen to my stereo through my Altec 19s instead of modern bookshelf monitors. I would rather listen to music EQ'd to my preference than EQ'd to a flat response mastering type (i guess) setting.
Quote"...WHICH takes me to the point of my argument: There is workhorse quality in both, but the sound caracteristics are subjective to our brains."
I can only hope that the Rane holds up as well as the Bozaks have, and given Rane's track record, I am optimistic. But I still prefer to listen with the Bozak...
)What I dont like about the rane 2016, as compared to my Bozak (which is in used, but good condition -- not one of the restored ones though... if i only had the $$$$) is the lack of bass. to get a decent bump going, you really need to EQ a bit heavy for the response. and then the thing clips....how evil
) My solution is to obtain some high quality external EQs which i will run in the signal chain. (still working on this one...)The sound reproduction that comes out of the Bozak is Heaven on Earth...IMHO
I just really prefer the sound characteristics of the Bozak, but like you stated, that is personal preference. on the same line i prefer to listen to my stereo through my Altec 19s instead of modern bookshelf monitors. I would rather listen to music EQ'd to my preference than EQ'd to a flat response mastering type (i guess) setting.
Quote"...WHICH takes me to the point of my argument: There is workhorse quality in both, but the sound caracteristics are subjective to our brains."
I can only hope that the Rane holds up as well as the Bozaks have, and given Rane's track record, I am optimistic. But I still prefer to listen with the Bozak...
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Peasant Nikon
Guest
Yay! Mature discussion about mixers. I should log on here more often. As far as the rotaries go (and I may have already said this of something conflicting it in this very thread): All three work well, all three sound great (some better than others), and all three are hated on entirely too much. Each of the mixers has something good to offer, and I encourage everyone to hear/use them if they can. As far as the Rane lacking bass, I would argue that you are just hearing clean sound... However, the older mixers do seem to have a more powerful bottom and brighter top. Is it distortion? Probably, but I would like my 2016 to distort like that anytime 
.
.
C
catnap
Major Label Whore
one day i will meet a DJ who owns a Bozak. and then hopefully they will let me visit their studio, pull up a chair and listen while they spin, and find out for myself what all the hype is about.
i know that the first time I ever heard an honest-to-god audiophile system, it was like hearing music for the first time... like cold chilled Evian in a crystal glass versus warm tap water out of a plastic cup.
after all the debates on here and wave music, i'm expecting nothing less than that from a Bozak.
i know that the first time I ever heard an honest-to-god audiophile system, it was like hearing music for the first time... like cold chilled Evian in a crystal glass versus warm tap water out of a plastic cup.
after all the debates on here and wave music, i'm expecting nothing less than that from a Bozak.
R
Reticuli
New member
Scott Fitlin said:
You know, you're the only OTHER person I've ever heard use the term "roar" to describe very low bass.
Scott Fitlin said:
That's why speakers and headphones do not have flat responses. Amps, Preamps, mixers, and everything else in the chain should have as flat a response as possible prior to reaching the speakers. It’s the transducer that should be giving you a pleasing response curve. Look at the research compiled by Etymotic Research for their ER4 for a good example. Anything else is simply inaccurate in a bad way under optimal conditions. Now, I would certainly concede that it's better to err on the side of warmth early in the signal chain before cold brightness, but certainly neutrality is king.
Nonetheless, I can see how at very loud levels one might want a very finessed, warm-sounding, midrange-recessed piece of gear in the path to offset the otherwise aggressive sound you'd get. I personally dig that, and it's necessary in a live setting where you're reaching over 100dB. Also, I think we all have to remember that a lot of pre-digital era records were mastered on warmer sounding systems. A new Paul Van Dyk will sound warmer on a modern mixer than an original pressing of Orbital's "Halcyon". Interestingly, I recently tried out a Stanton SA-8 mixer and found the much applauded pure-analog sound of it too warm, too bassy, and too rolled off...especially the phono pre-amps. Not to mention that the cue-pan is worthless on it. And I'd heard people saying it was better sounding than Rane or Vestax, but I digress.
I am continuously impressed with the sound I'm getting from a Numark PPD01 that the company replaced a crummy Matrix 2 with (though the Matrix had a better headphone jack, the PPD01's headphone DAC is not as nice as its main output ones, assuming the opamps are the same). This surprises the hell out of me, because I've always hated digital. But using that mixer is like Djing in DVD-Audio. Its input A/D converters are quite good and I can hook it up to any DAC I want for a tailored sound. For recording mix CD's and hooking into a digital capable sound system, I'm pretty impressed with this little thing. Numark really needs better crossfader curves, but I'm known as a pain in the ass. Just ask Numark.
Anyway, I don't know where the hell I'm going with this. I feel like I want to sell everything I own and go join up with you guys to be a Wave monk or something...devoted to the sound. I'm still in search of the best sounding cartridge, for one. Still trying to get Piledriver (Grayed Out) to sound like it did at Club Utopia. I'm torn between the (revised) Grado DJ200, the Shure Whitelabel, and the Ortofon Broadcast E. Since you've been around for the longest time, was the Stanton 680SL stereohedron needle really all it was cracked up to be during the early '90s?
What's your favorite mixing cart right now?
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catnap
Major Label Whore
Reticuli said:
hmmmm, i'm still leary of the PPD-01. one of my friends bought one and its developed a persistant fader problem where they short out. The left fader is completely shot now, after just 6 months, and Numark won't replace it because they say it's a "known issue / bug" that they haven't figured out yet. WTF??? also, at a recent club night, i saw & heard another one of those literally blow-up... it started sending loud bursts of static into the speakers before the whole mixer fizzled shut down completely. that all happened very quickly, too, in about maybe 3-5 minutes. i had to run home and lend them my Empath so the show could go on.
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Reticuli
New member
No kidding. Mine seems fine, but it was a Refurb unit from Numark. Might have all the bugs fixed out of it, or something. Being able to hook it directly to any DAC is very nice, though. If it blows up I'm sure Numark would send me another one. Hell, it replaced a $165 mixer!
catnap said:
hmmmm, i'm still leary of the PPD-01. one of my friends bought one and its developed a persistant fader problem where they short out. The left fader is completely shot now, after just 6 months, and Numark won't replace it because they say it's a "known issue / bug" that they haven't figured out yet. WTF??? also, at a recent club night, i saw & heard another one of those literally blow-up... it started sending loud bursts of static into the speakers before the whole mixer fizzled shut down completely. that all happened very quickly, too, in about maybe 3-5 minutes. i had to run home and lend them my Empath so the show could go on.
A
atf104
New member
Engineroom,
I have a degree in Electrical Engineering (not PhD, but BS) and did a great deal of classwork on circuit design. I've also been a dj/producer for about 8 years now.
Many of you are missing the point that dance music, in particular, house music, was never meant to be "heard" with a totally flat frequency response or with a "transparent" sound in a club. The music, since the time of Larry Levan, and championed today by all those previously mentioned garage dj's and by one of the most respected progressive/house dj's in the world, Danny Tenaglia, has evolved to sound a certain way in a club. That is bass heavy, so you "feel" the music and eq'd in a way that doesn't hurt your ears over long (6- 8- 10 hour+) dj sets. If you eq'd a club to a flat frequencey response, as any engineer would tell you to do, you'd walk out of there in 10 minutes with bloody ears. Yes the response of a rane or V6 is much flatter and if you look at the output of a bozak or urei on a scope, its distorted as hell. HOWEVER, that's what gives a great club that great club sound.
The whole point here is that 20-30 years ago, people figured all this out and you have to respect them for that. They solved the problems in a very simplistic manner. You can apply modern technology to this concept, but it's not really necessary.
As far as effects and limitations on mixers, the urei's and bozak's can be modified to accomodate any effects you would ever need. The fact that "visual" dj'ing has become the "in" thing, massive efx, etc.. doesn't mean that it enhances the overall set of a dj. Does anyone really want to hear 8 hours of scratching? However, this is our climate today with the mtv-dictated visual format dj'ing has become. However, some of my favorite dj's, Tenaglia, DJ Vibe, Tom Stephan, all use effects effortlessly with rotary mixers so well, you cant even tell what they are doing.
So yes, at the end of the day, everyone has their opinions, but sometimes (after reading forums like this and wave quite extensively) it seems people lose the point. The point is achieving "that sound" in the nightclub. If you've ever heard the twilo sound system, (at twilo I might add) or a system by shorty or say the old vinyl soundsystem when it was fully retuned before leaving arc, you'll know what we're talking about. Dance music was made to be heard AND felt. The experience just doesnt work unless the sound system is top notch and in "that zone" of response. That's one reason these "wave guys" are so passionate about this stuff and I understand where they're coming from, although not as knowledgable about the specifics as they are.
-Adam
I have a degree in Electrical Engineering (not PhD, but BS) and did a great deal of classwork on circuit design. I've also been a dj/producer for about 8 years now.
Many of you are missing the point that dance music, in particular, house music, was never meant to be "heard" with a totally flat frequency response or with a "transparent" sound in a club. The music, since the time of Larry Levan, and championed today by all those previously mentioned garage dj's and by one of the most respected progressive/house dj's in the world, Danny Tenaglia, has evolved to sound a certain way in a club. That is bass heavy, so you "feel" the music and eq'd in a way that doesn't hurt your ears over long (6- 8- 10 hour+) dj sets. If you eq'd a club to a flat frequencey response, as any engineer would tell you to do, you'd walk out of there in 10 minutes with bloody ears. Yes the response of a rane or V6 is much flatter and if you look at the output of a bozak or urei on a scope, its distorted as hell. HOWEVER, that's what gives a great club that great club sound.
The whole point here is that 20-30 years ago, people figured all this out and you have to respect them for that. They solved the problems in a very simplistic manner. You can apply modern technology to this concept, but it's not really necessary.
As far as effects and limitations on mixers, the urei's and bozak's can be modified to accomodate any effects you would ever need. The fact that "visual" dj'ing has become the "in" thing, massive efx, etc.. doesn't mean that it enhances the overall set of a dj. Does anyone really want to hear 8 hours of scratching? However, this is our climate today with the mtv-dictated visual format dj'ing has become. However, some of my favorite dj's, Tenaglia, DJ Vibe, Tom Stephan, all use effects effortlessly with rotary mixers so well, you cant even tell what they are doing.
So yes, at the end of the day, everyone has their opinions, but sometimes (after reading forums like this and wave quite extensively) it seems people lose the point. The point is achieving "that sound" in the nightclub. If you've ever heard the twilo sound system, (at twilo I might add) or a system by shorty or say the old vinyl soundsystem when it was fully retuned before leaving arc, you'll know what we're talking about. Dance music was made to be heard AND felt. The experience just doesnt work unless the sound system is top notch and in "that zone" of response. That's one reason these "wave guys" are so passionate about this stuff and I understand where they're coming from, although not as knowledgable about the specifics as they are.
-Adam
J
Johnpuga1982
Guest
Preach on brother. I head the Twilo system at Shelter.
C
catnap
Major Label Whore
Johnpuga1982 said:
god, i can't wait to visit Shelter again in October, after I've moved back to NY. it is number one on my list of clubs to go to. I saw Louie Vega there years ago and the experience still represents what house music is all about to me.
-s
E
engineroom
New member
atf104
i agree and understand what your staying- but i still think the gold standard should be flat, with the option to then dial in the desired "sound" at some place at the end of the chain- remember we don't all play house music, nor do we all play inside all the time.
i agree and understand what your staying- but i still think the gold standard should be flat, with the option to then dial in the desired "sound" at some place at the end of the chain- remember we don't all play house music, nor do we all play inside all the time.
J
Johnpuga1982
Guest
catnap said:
Preach on brother.