Urei vs. Bozak vs. Rane

  • Thread starter Thread starter Johnpuga1982
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I don't use EQ, FX or filters. If I could afford it, I'd have belt-driven Linn turntables with Koetsu cartridges as well, hooked up to Class A amps and Klipschorn speakers.
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Mattu; cool, I respect your quest for audiophile perfection... I like great sound too, but you've got to admit, you're in the minority amongst a board full of DJ's (unless of course you were being ironic ;)).

John Puga; thanks for the history lesson ;). I've read the Wave board for a year or two now and am fully aware of who FK is and of NYC's fine nightclubbing/soundsystem heritage. I agree with you, it's not all about taking out the bass or turning the 'flang', I hate overuse of effects/gimmicks as much as the next guy, and respect for good sound is far from just being 'a NYC' thing (by the way the Wave boys hate the Rane and remain unconvinced by the V6, even though they haven't heard it yet!..)

The point I'm making is that there are some very fine and technically adept DJ's today (not NYC garage DJ's, admittedly), who would feel extremely limited by a rotary mixer with no channel EQ's and no effects, and to dismiss them out of hand in this debate is ridiculous (have you seen James Zabiela scratching on a Pioneer CDJ with one hand on the EFX-500 for example?? :bigeyes: ).

(Oh... and for the record, this is coming from a 'rotary' guy who also hates digital mixers such as the DJM-3000! ;))
 
hey guys, I wrote an honors thesis that covered this issue in depth. I'll work on getting it into a pdf for you all.
 
Unbroken1 said:
Mattu; cool, I respect your quest for audiophile perfection...
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To be honest, mate, it's more a combination of laziness and wanting to let the records do the talking. I have a couple of FX units and a Vestax isolator, but they're a hassle to hook up and to control, so most of the time I just leave them out.

you're in the minority amongst a board full of DJ's (unless of course you were being ironic ;)).
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I'm very aware of this, but diversity is key! :) Plus, a couple of years ago, I was probably more into it, but I'm a few years older than most people on this forum. I guess more will go my way in a few years... once they too get bored and lazy ;)
 
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but I'm a few years older than most people on this forum.
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Mattu; me too. Hence my more recent changeover to a simpler and better quality set-up.
 
Hello, my name is Scott Fitlin, so I think I am qualified to say what Scott Fitlin would tell ya about the mixers in question!

Yes, The Bozak has the warmest sound with the heaviest bottom, and silky highs! Its the king of em all!

The Urei has a good, but not as good sound as the Bozak with better flexibility and more inputs, and booth/House outs! Sharper midrange than the Bozak, but can also get harsh if careful attention to system setup isnt paid!

The Rane 2016!Yeah, its clean in the sense that it doesnt sound distorted, but it has that signature brittle electronic sound that characterizes most of Ranes gear! It also lacks output drive, put it up against either a Bozak or urei side by side and the Bozak or Urei have stronger outputs! AND, YES, YOU can hear the difference, either in a club, or in home use, unless you really poor speakers you will always hear differencves between electronics!

Now, what each individual likes is a matter of preference, and is in fact up to the individual. When Im asked for my opinion I give it, for better or worse!

I have been doing audio since the middle `70,s and have used almost everything under the sun. If I come across something I like thats the way it is! Unfortunately, the Rane isnt as good as the Urei sonically, and definitely isnt a Bozak!

Most people seem to like the items I recommend to them, so I have to go with what the majority says.
 
I own both the Rane 2016 combo and a few Bozak unitsand I must agree with Scott that the difference between the units IS noticable. My home set up is 3 Tech TT, 2 pioneer CDJ 500s, and mixer (Boxzak or Rane); sound reinforcement is Altec Lansing Model 19s run with altec amps -- I 'A/B'ed the Rane and Bozak units -- Bozak WAY BETTER -- and i am not a pro, just one who has hung out behind the tables for the last 8 years...
 
kind of ironic that the "sound" of a mixer is given big points by guys who propose a minimalism in the audio chain-

if the mixer has a "sound" then it is introducing distortion of some kind- really the true definition of a good signal path is one that introduces a minimum amount of distortion into the signal- that bozac and urei sound is probably a function of those failing capacitors and old school op-amps; your rane might sound the same way in 20 years.
 
Bozak, and Urei sound!

Um, to be blunt, thats B*&%S&$$.

The Bozak or Urei sound the way they do because they were in fact designed to do so!

Back in the 60,s and through the early and mid seventies, they voiced audio gear to a different response than they do today! The same thing applies to speakers! Years ago, certain companies, such as Altec and JBL voiced their speakers to sound like real music, or to produce punchy bottom. BUT, Flat, many of these speakers WERE NOT, but they sounded great!

Since I have 5 Urei 1620,s and 4 Bozaks, and the Urei Im using right now was made in 1993, with the mon/yr stamp on the tranformers in side the unit, how badly do you really feel my caps and op amps are? Op amps dont go bad, BTW!

Simply put, some things sound good. And will stand the test of time. Is the Bozak 100% accurate? No, but it sounds good. How about what people do with EQ,s to get their woofers to sound similar to a clubs? Is that accurate? Isnt that a distortion of some kind? After all, you are in fact altering the signal from its original state and thats considered to be distortion!

Or how about when one is mixing a track in the studio, and one decides to use Tube Compression to fatten up the bottom?

I have been working with Audio, in all forms since I got bitten by the audio bug in 1974. Over the years I have seen many things change, some for the better, and some not! Years ago electronics and speakers were built to a specification, today, many manufacturers build to fit a price point! Its not always the same thing, quality wise!

In 1993, which is pretty much the last year of the manufacture of the Urei 1620, they decided to ****can the unit because they couldnt make enough money on it! The mixer could be purchased NEW for $1100! And people were buying inexpensive Numarks, and Ranes! So, away went the Urei! If they ever decided to reintroduce that mixer to the market again, with circuit updates, etc, it would cost $2500 today, maybe more!

The mixers from the past were built and designed to sound good, and what sounds great for club use is NOT always ruler flat, or technically perfect!

Just so you understand a little bit of what Im trying to tell you, a truly flat response on a sound system is bright sounding! Yes its accurate, but very bright! It might not be quite what you thought you were going to get!
 
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one i know exactly what i am talking about- my EE PhD thesis is on signal processing among other scary things

two caps go bad (never said op amps do, just said they were old school, with general poorer slew rates, etc. than modern ones)- op amps can go bad though all the same

three the point was that guys are worrying about what **** is in the signal path etc, but then they are colouring the sound at the source- if you like the sound that's fine, but to criticise rane for what is essential a better signal path it silly. and i can bet you those guys designed those mixers to get the flattest freq response and best phase response they could at the time

introducing colouring with an eq or comp or something is an explicit effort- i would rather have a clean signal and then colour it how i want to than start with something already altered.

actually, i think if you could somehow get a brand new Urei, Rane, Bozak and A&H and line them all up, you would probably not hear much difference- look at the schematics for all of them, they are really simple and basic gain stages- you could build the Rane or the Urei on a breadboard- that is the genius of all of them-i just think that age is a factor in the sound differences.
 
I think this is an unwinnable argument on both sides, because both of you have different conceptions of what good sound is....
 
LOL

That is true, I shouldn't get into these debates...

LOL
 
engineroom said:
LOL

That is true, I shouldn't get into these debates...

LOL
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on a lighter note - if you're seriously interested in these changing perceptions of "good" sound, you may be interested in my honors thesis.

It's on the history of the development of DJ mixer features, and part of it talks about the shift from high quality rotaries to a more commercially available (yet lower-quality) type of mixer.

http://www.704b.com/thesis.html
 
engineroom said:
LOL

That is true, I shouldn't get into these debates...

LOL
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oh hell no!!

i love to read this kinda stuff

don't stop please!!

drc24's thesis is great BTW
very interesting read
 
looks like an interesting read, i will check it out

i have always kind of held that the DJ mixer was a funny thing- very expensive considering what the same amount of money will get you both flexibility and quality wise in a small studio/live board

heck, you could buy a used A&H GL2200 for less than 2 grand if you get a good deal, look at that board and compare it to any DJ mixer in terms of both sound and features

i know they are kind of apples and oranges, but both styles of mixers do the same thing (route signals) and use the same components, circuit types, etc.

that crossfade must be really expensive!!!
 
Yes, they ALL do the same thing, and yet they all do the same thing very differently!

I do mean to state that each mixer is voiced to sound a certain way, according to the application its mainly intended for, as well as the designers own idea of what the mixer should sound like! An engineer can design a board that uses identical components to another brand of board, but they sound completely different from each other! In the end, its up to the purchaser to decide what they like, then buy what they like!

I will say something on high quality IC,s and what does happen when you go this route. I decided at one time that I wanted to upgrade my Urei 1620, with cleaner, and far more accurate IC,s! Since my Urei,s have IC sockets its easy to do. With the help of a very good technician, I substituted Burr Brown IC,s that were a match pin for pin, and was totally compatible with the existing circuit, and its component values! Upon listening, the bass had firmed up, I could hear more little sounds in the bacground, and the midrange was more solid, and forward sounding. It sounded very exact. But the highs were bothering me, kind of dry and gated sounding! Another thing that I found out, was that although the bass was firmer and cleaner sounding, it didnt seem to have the depth and roar on the deep bottom, as It does with the TLO84,s in the circuit! But I listened for a few days with the Burr Brown IC,s in the mixer! The resolving powerof the BB IC was indeed better than the TLO82, but the sound is sweeter and warmer with the TLO84!

After 4 days of really listening I got bored with the very exact sound of the chips, and I re-installed the TLO84, old ones at that! Well, the highs had that sweet,smooth, and easy going sound! The midrange had that slightly recessed sound that gives you the illusion of depth in the recording, and the bass sounded deep, and had that GROWL I love! Although the TLO84 isnt the HIGHEST resolving chip, its pleasant to listen to, especially on a big system, with 22 tweeters, and six big mid horns! After a bit, the mid was too forward sounding with the BB ic,s and I got tired of it. Now for the BIG statement! The TLO84 has that warm, and yet smooth, but very dynamic sound, BUT, the warmth in the bass is definitely a distortion component! YES, a DISTORTION component! I have known this for a long time, and could definitely hear the lack of distortion with the BB IC, but I really missed that VROOOOMMMMM in the bottom you get with the TLO82! As for the highs and mids, well, take into account the recordings we play ( Dance Music ) that are less than stellar recordings, and maybe the " Absolute Level of Accuracy " isnt quite the answer.

Just sharing an experience I had!
 
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and i never said that I was judging things based upon a technical sound curve -- but again, IMHO i absolutely love the sound emanating from my altec 19s with 1200 mk2s and a Bozak mixer....


my .02
 
Louped dont apologize, I happen to love Altec speakers. Unsurpassed vocal presence, and very high efficiency!

Engineroom, I auditioned the A&H V6, I had the Rane 2016 in here for a week. You CAN hear the differences big time!

As to what one likes? Well, its up to the individual. But you have to admit, many people seem to fall in love with the Bozak and Urei sound!

Yes, caps do dry out or become leaky over time! However, if you have a mixer that has a bad cap or two, it can be fixed, no problem! So, the mixer can be kept in great spec!

Engine, IF the specs and measurements really told the whole story, then every speaker made sounds amazing! Why are there such broad differences in sound and tonality if all the speakers have terrific measurements? Just like you can hear the differences between speakers, and sometimes your ears dont agree with what the specs say, the same is true of electronics! Some sound better than others, and sometimes you like a piece that doesnt measure as well as something else! cartridge/needle combinations also enter this realm! They all measure quite well, yet a guy likes a particular cartridge for the way it sounds! If most carts these days have fairly flat response why do they all sound different from each other? And would you care to tell us which cartridge is the only cartridge to use and why we shouldnt use our own judgement as to what we hear?

I make no apologies for what I say or recommend, and I dont care for the Rane sound! AND I CAN hear the difference!

Alot of people seem to agree, once they hear the difference too!

Ever read amplifier specs? You have a PHD in EE, so you would most definitely be able to understand the meanings of these specs! Do you think its fair of companies to advertise power ratings @ 1KHZ with amps that are used primarily for driving subwoofer loads? But they all do it these days! Have you never purchased a product that didnt work out as you thought it would, but its all there on paper?

I use my ears, and I teach others to use their ears! I have a vast amount of experience, and I know exactly what Im talking about, and you can come and here my system. My system speaks for me! Trust your ears, they will never lie to you, but a salesman always will!

As I said, you are welcome to hear my system! I know what it does!
 
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