Questions about Counterpoint

[Mr.Orange]

Hi everyone,

in order for this to be focused I'd like to begin with asking questions about the ending of the melodies. More questions with follow later.

Johann Fux gives specific rules for the clausula (ending) of counterpoints.

For example in the first species (note against note): he says the penultimate note of the counterpoint should be a minor 3rd away from the cantus firmus if the cantus firmus is the upper part and it should be a major 6th away from the cantus firmus if the cantus firmus is the lower part.

Since he always uses a 2nd as the penultimate note of the cantus firmus: is the only reason of the above rule (either minor 3rd or major 6th...) to archieve a counterpoint-clausula of a leading tone going to the tonic?

Or would there be any other sense in having a penultimate note that is a min 3rd or maj 6th away from the cantus firmus?

Why didn't he just write: "always use the leading tone as the penultimate note of the counterpoint"?


I am interested in any idea concerning this. If nobody really knows an answer I'd also be very grateful about links to other forums that might be helpful.

 

[Mr.Orange]

For those who might wonder:
I guess the answer can be read here: sites.google.com/site/speciescptintro/Home/learning/our-gears/clausula-vera

To sum it up: by having the rules of the final note having to be approached by a step and also the rule the melodies to approach it from a different side ( one up, the other down), it only allowed for the min 3rd and maj 6th to be used as harmonic intervals and thus he could sum it up in simply saying: just use those intervals. But I wonder if Fux explains this anywhere in his book (have read only the parts I suspected to explain it), because I don't think it's good to learn things without knowing why.

 

[HolisticSongwriting]

Hey Mr.Orange,

Your reasoning is correct. But be aware that there are different schools of counterpoint.
May I ask what kind of music you're writing? Are you interested in classical counterpoint
or are you looking for ways in which to use it in a modern setting?

The most famous one says the last note - which has to be a perfect consonance (1 or 5) -
has to be approached in contrary motion and stepwise.

As for the penultimate note, this one has to lead nicely to the last note. What do you need
for that direction? Well, you need a third (leading tone) somewhere. And what else? Either
a 1 or 5 of that chord. If you're playing both melodies over an harmonic instrument you're
free to choose which one you want (the harmonic instrument takes care of the root note).

If there's no accompaniment, you have to go for the 1, otherwise your chord will change.
For example, if we're in Cmajor and we want to end on a V-I (G-C):

Cantus Firmus: b - c (leading tone, root)
Counterpoint: g - c (V-I)

If we changed the counterpoint to d - c the chord implied would be a Bdim
(b - d - f) which is not what we want.

Make sense? Let me know if you have any questions
Friedemann

PS: Btw, I'm releasing a program on hook & melody writing soon that has a chapter
on Counterpoint as it is used in modern Pop music. If you're interested in that you can
sign up to my newsletter here.

 

[Mr.Orange]

Thank you for your interesting reply - I will try to answer soon!

 

[Mr.Orange]

Hey Mr.Orange,

Your reasoning is correct. But be aware that there are different schools of counterpoint.
May I ask what kind of music you're writing? Are you interested in classical counterpoint
or are you looking for ways in which to use it in a modern setting?

Hey Friedemann,
I know there are. I started with a simplified version of the teachings of Fux.
I wanted to first understand him in his context and then see for myself what I can use in my context.

I want to use it in a modern setting - I want to produce electronica and alternative house.

The most famous one says the last note - which has to be a perfect consonance (1 or 5) -
has to be approached in contrary motion and stepwise.

As for the penultimate note, this one has to lead nicely to the last note. What do you need
for that direction? Well, you need a third (leading tone) somewhere. And what else? Either
a 1 or 5 of that chord. If you're playing both melodies over an harmonic instrument you're
free to choose which one you want (the harmonic instrument takes care of the root note).

Do you mean the "seventh (leading tone)"?

If there's no accompaniment, you have to go for the 1, otherwise your chord will change.
For example, if we're in Cmajor and we want to end on a V-I (G-C):

Cantus Firmus: b - c (leading tone, root)
Counterpoint: g - c (V-I)

If we changed the counterpoint to d - c the chord implied would be a Bdim
(b - d - f) which is not what we want.

Make sense? Let me know if you have any questions
Friedemann

Yes, makes sense! What if one tries to imply the G Major Chord together with the note preceding the d?

Anyway, thanks for bringing in the aspect of the cadence of the whole song, I didn't really think about it, because I thought that chords are based on all the notes in a bar or something like that and won't be implied based on just the notes that are played at exactly the same time...

PS: Btw, I'm releasing a program on hook & melody writing soon that has a chapter
on Counterpoint as it is used in modern Pop music. If you're interested in that you can
sign up to my newsletter here.

Looks really helpful - I'll look into it more deeply when I have the time - thanks for that too!

 

[HolisticSongwriting]

Hello again Mr. Orange,

Yes, I mean the 7th, which is the 3rd of the dominant
(for example, the 7th in Cmajor is a b which is the third of Gmajor).

Yes, makes sense! What if one tries to imply the G Major Chord together with the note preceding the d?

Excellent question! For example, if you wrote:

Cantus Firmus: d - d - c
Counterpoint: g - b - c

Unfortunately, this doesn't sound very good to me
Or did you have another suggestion?

Anyway, thanks for bringing in the aspect of the cadence of the whole song, I didn't really think about it, because I thought that chords are based on all the notes in a bar or something like that and won't be implied based on just the notes that are played at exactly the same time...

Yeah, implying harmony comes later. This gets really interesting especially if you work
with secondary dominants.

Looks really helpful - I'll look into it more deeply when I have the time - thanks for that too!

Great Did you sign up to the mailing list? Then I'll let you know when it releases

Best,
Friedemann