Newbie with a thirst for knowledge

[PitchBob]

Hi all.
I'm new to this site and relatively new to PA buying and set up.
my band are buying a PA to perform in small to medium sized venues, 50-250 people.
we have hired PA on previous occasions and never been really happy with our produced sound, out front.
i researched some gear and settled on a pair of Cerwin Vega PSX 153 cabs, which I've bought, and I've also bought a Yamaha graphic and a Peavey 2600 amp, both rack mounted.
the CV cabs have an internal crossover and I think I want to use them for the instruments. Would I still need to use a crossover before the amp powering them?
I'm also on the verge of buying a pair of 18 inch subs and another pair of full range cabs but I'm undecided on which.
the full range cabs would be purely for vocals, I feel the clarity is lost when the instruments and vocals are going through the same speakers.
i understand that I will have to buy another couple of amps and a crossover and a mixer.
The mixer will have to be a 16 channel because we are going to DI the guitars and put the drums through plus at least 3 mics possibly 4.
i don't know what crossover to buy and what amps I'm going to need and I'm quite confused as to what, in real terms, I'm going to need to run the PA.
i do think the I'm going to use the Peavey as a dedicated sub amp though.
sorry if any of this sounds a bit elementary to you guys with the knowledge but I just want a bit of clarity before I go out and buy some expensive gear.
i want to know how and why and what to do.
i feel like I'm floundering a bit and no one really wants to impart any knowledge.
thats why I'm here
thank you, in anticipation of your replies and please try to be nice, I'm a sensitive soul

 

[bandcoach]

Hi all.
I'm new to this site and relatively new to PA buying and set up.
my band are buying a PA to perform in small to medium sized venues, 50-250 people.
we have hired PA on previous occasions and never been really happy with our produced sound, out front.
i researched some gear and settled on a pair of Cerwin Vega PSX 153 cabs, which I've bought, and I've also bought a Yamaha graphic and a Peavey 2600 amp, both rack mounted.

Good start.

the CV cabs have an internal crossover and I think I want to use them for the instruments. Would I still need to use a crossover before the amp powering them?

Unless you can access the internals without using the crossover, there is no point in using a crossover here

I'm also on the verge of buying a pair of 18 inch subs and another pair of full range cabs but I'm undecided on which.

remember that your subs will be driven with the same mono signal below 150Hz (can't be more accurate than that without the full rig known); i.e. both sides of the amp will be driven by the same input signal.

the full range cabs would be purely for vocals, I feel the clarity is lost when the instruments and vocals are going through the same speakers.
i understand that I will have to buy another couple of amps and a crossover and a mixer.
The mixer will have to be a 16 channel because we are going to DI the guitars and put the drums through plus at least 3 mics possibly 4.

I'm not certain that this is a good idea - the whole point of PA systems (sound reinforcement systems) is to mix everything into a single (mono or stereo) source that reinforces the stage sound and amplifies the vocals. Getting the vocals to have a clarity is part of the art of mixing and managing stage dynamics - this is why it is important to have someone other than a band member mix for anything other than the rehearsal room

This kind of defeats the purpose of your system in some ways - I also don't think that you have thought through how to make your plans work using a 16:2 mixer. If you get a mixer with subgroups that would be fine, but I think you will be working harder for poorer results.

Use your amps for stage sound and mic your guitar cabinets - di for bass is fine and is considered standard practice

i don't know what crossover to buy and what amps I'm going to need and I'm quite confused as to what, in real terms, I'm going to need to run the PA.

You need to get equipment that will cope with driving your speaker cabinets.

As for a crossover, there is nothing that you will need beyond a simple stereo 2-way unit with a mono sub out and in fact you will only be using at as a sub splitter - i.e. no crossover function unless you are going to attempt to drive each of the drivers in your cabinets independently of their internal crossover systems

Mics: SM58 for vocals. SM57 for snare and hats and guitar cabs, maybe even your toms as well. AKG D112 for the kick (and your bass cab if you prefer to mic it up)

i do think the I'm going to use the Peavey as a dedicated sub amp though.
sorry if any of this sounds a bit elementary to you guys with the knowledge but I just want a bit of clarity before I go out and buy some expensive gear.
i want to know how and why and what to do.
i feel like I'm floundering a bit and no one really wants to impart any knowledge.
thats why I'm here
thank you, in anticipation of your replies and please try to be nice, I'm a sensitive soul

Right now I suggest that get a hold of the Yamaha Sound reinforcement handbook [amazon | book depository | abes books]and read it cover to cover several times before making any further decisions - it is old (more than 26 years) so the specific equipment may not exist but the concepts have not changed.

 

[PitchBob]

Thank you so much BandCoach.
That's clarified it a bit!!And saved me some money!
I will be getting the book this week, it's for sale on Amazon and I had already checked after reading some advice you had given another member.

As far as mics are concerned, I have 2 SM58's a Lewitt 540 and a Rode S1 plus a couple of £40 mics used for backing vocals.
I loved my S1 but after the condenser broke and it came back from repair, it's terrible almost as if it's been wired backwards, no bass, all top end. I'm currently using the Lewitt as it has a particularly wide pick up, over the more directional Shures, and it doesn't seem to sound any worse, possibly a little better than the SM58.
I will look towards getting some 57s for the instruments though.

When you said about the mixer, do you mean there are too many channels on the 16?
i have seen a fully automated digital Behringer DDX 32/16 mixer for sale for £500 and a couple of ADT1616's thrown in.
what say you?
thanks again.

 

[bandcoach]

Thank you so much BandCoach.
That's clarified it a bit!!And saved me some money!
I will be getting the book this week, it's for sale on Amazon and I had already checked after reading some advice you had given another member.

As far as mics are concerned, I have 2 SM58's a Lewitt 540 and a Rode S1 plus a couple of £40 mics used for backing vocals.
I loved my S1 but after the condenser broke and it came back from repair, it's terrible almost as if it's been wired backwards, no bass, all top end. I'm currently using the Lewitt as it has a particularly wide pick up, over the more directional Shures, and it doesn't seem to sound any worse, possibly a little better than the SM58.
I will look towards getting some 57s for the instruments though.

I still recommend the SM58 over the Lewitt or the rode for two reasons
1) on stage you want a less sensitive microphone to ensure that it only picks up your vocal rather than everything on the stage
- the more sensitive a mic, the more it picks up on and off-axis
- specifically it will pick up sounds that an SM58 will never pick up
- the SM58 was originally designed for in-vehicle Tank communications so had to have a high rejection of noise off axis and low sensitivity on-axis
2) the SM58 is a dynamic capsule, rather than a condenser
- you do not need to provide phantom power
- the general consensus is that dynamic mics are more rugged than condensers (they are not as sensitive to being dropped as a condenser is)

When you said about the mixer, do you mean there are too many channels on the 16?

Not at all - if you insist on having separate vocal and instrumental Front of House speakers then you will need to run sub-groups/sub mixes for each a regualr 16:2 mixer will not have this capability, so a mixer with sub-groups is a better option say 16:4:2

Assuming standard instrumentation, you will need something like the following channel assignment:
1-4 vocals (if all sing)
5-6 guitar 1 and 2
7 bass
8 keyboard sub mix
9 kick
10 snare
11 hats
12 tom 1
13 tom 2
14 floor tom
15-16 Overheads for drums

i have seen a fully automated digital Behringer DDX 32/16 mixer for sale for £500 and a couple of ADT1616's thrown in.
what say you?
thanks again.

As with most mixers these days those numbers are a cheat - it can accept up to 32 channels of digital i/o but in terms of microphone inputs it only has 12 channels, the other 4 inputs being 2 stereo line inputs

PS digital is not always the best way to go for live sound unless you want to spend really big bucks

A Behringer desk I can recommend would be

Behringer: EURODESK SX2442FX or Behringer: XENYX XL2400 whilst they are specd as 24 channel mixers they have either 20 or 16 mic channels with the rest being dedicate stereo line pairs

consider a mackie (the inspiration for most of behringers early mixer designs) or an allen and heath

 

[PitchBob]

Hey.

im toying with getting a Crown Microtech 2400 and I saw on a forum that I need a pre amp.

what and why?

thanks

 

[bandcoach]

your mixer is a preamp

A preamp takes the voltage levels of your microphones (usually measured in millivolts (mV)) and other sources and brings them up to the expected input level of 1-2V RMS for the power amplifier (i.e. a thousand-fold increase in voltage) Your power amplifier then takes that input voltage and converts it to 30-100V RMS (depends on the output power and current as well - divide power by current required to get voltage required)

 

[PitchBob]

Thank you.

I really appreciate your comments Bandcoach.

I do feel a bit dumb asking these questions but it's not going to stop me as long as you're willing to answer.

Bob

 

[bandcoach]

40 years ago I did not know this stuff - I read books, read magazines, learnt about electronics and music, asked questions when the opportunity presented itself, studied electronics and music at college level, and so, time to pay it forward