Mics upside down

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mrsmith23

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What is the significance of having your microphone on a stand that is upside down?
 
The reason microphones were initially mounted upside down, was to prevent the hot tubes from affecting the capsule's performance. Hot air rises
 
I was taught in a recording techniquez class that engineerz only mounted mics upside down to make room for musicians (drummers, guitarist) to use their instruments without hittin the mics.... This is also handy incase the singers wave their arms around wildly (like mariah carey)... Other than that, theres no need to mount it upside down...

My professor (a professional engineer) says the theory about heat rising is not true because no major damage could be done to the microphone... And will not cause any major change to a microphonez function...

He also advises against that technique due to "this new lil thing called gravity... Trying to set up your mic in a cool hip way iz just not worth the risk of dropping a thousand or multi-thousand dollar piece of equipment... That might not even be yours to begin with"
 
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i was taught at college and residencey placement that the reason you put a mic upside down is to open up the singers airway passages.

some singers sing with the wrong posture to get a good clear take or some sing too quite so you have too boost the input level which in turn introduces white noise so you get more hiss which causes lots of headaches in the mixing room so the best solution was too suspend the mic from the ceiling and ed line it up slightly higher than the singers mouth so when they sang they had to raise there heads up which in turn gave us a loud/clear more emotional take.

think about it logically if you sing wit yuor head down your chin is constricting your airway passages so your vocals sound different and for prolonged sessions it can cause pain or cause the voice too crack but if your heads raised up the vocals escape much quicker,arnt constricted in anyway and you can sing for longer and give better takes as your vocal cords are more relaxed.

the thing about capsules is a bit of a myth and with modern mics problems such a heat isnt a problem as mics are better designed these days too dispuse any heat more effciently.
 
Also if you clip the cable to the mic stand , with the mic upside down , if the suspension mount gives up the ghost , the cable will catch the mic and prevent it hitting floor .
 
we used to use carpet mats and cushions one reason was just in case the mic fell off (which it never did) and also some singers refused too take there shoes off and as the main vocal booth had real wood floors if the singer had high heels on itd make clomping sounds like a load of horses were in the booth with her so too stop this we had thick carpet samples which you can buy or get freefrom any carpet store we got a lot free and bought extra ones the cost about 10 p each there really handy things too have around to create dead spaces in areas of bad reflections and if someone famous came in too record we had special cushions made that would cover around about a 2 meter square it was basically a duvet cover filled with foam you cant use polystyrene as it make lots of russtling sounds the cushion was brilliant and when it wasnt being used wed use it as a big beanbag type chair so people could crash on it in the chillout room were artists could goto too chillout and watch movies or play videogames ..
 
waxxy said:
i was taught at college and residencey placement that the reason you put a mic upside down is to open up the singers airway passages.

some singers sing with the wrong posture to get a good clear take or some sing too quite so you have too boost the input level which in turn introduces white noise so you get more hiss which causes lots of headaches in the mixing room so the best solution was too suspend the mic from the ceiling and ed line it up slightly higher than the singers mouth so when they sang they had to raise there heads up which in turn gave us a loud/clear more emotional take.

think about it logically if you sing wit yuor head down your chin is constricting your airway passages so your vocals sound different and for prolonged sessions it can cause pain or cause the voice too crack but if your heads raised up the vocals escape much quicker,arnt constricted in anyway and you can sing for longer and give better takes as your vocal cords are more relaxed.

the thing about capsules is a bit of a myth and with modern mics problems such a heat isnt a problem as mics are better designed these days too dispuse any heat more effciently.
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That is absolutely NOT the reason.

If you even think about it for a second you would quickly see that you could just as easily place the mic/capsule in the exact same position as if it were "upside down" if you had the mic "right side up" or even "sideways"...
 
I hang mine upside-down, and run the cord along my ceiling...but that's just so I don't trip over it when I get in creativity overload and start grabbing for guitars, basses, keys and mics in a passionate fury. Also makes vacuuming easier...but who does that? The dirt helps insulate the sound. :)
 
dvyce said:
That is absolutely NOT the reason.

If you even think about it for a second you would quickly see that you could just as easily place the mic/capsule in the exact same position as if it were "upside down" if you had the mic "right side up" or even "sideways"...
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im sorry but your wrong the mic wouldnt pick up enough of the vocals as the singer would be singing into the mic body instead of the capsule.

we didnt suspend the mic from the ceiling for every recording it was only used if we felt it would benifit the singer and give a better performance in lots of cases we just used mic stands same as most people use but if you raised the mic stand it doesnt give a good recording as your capsule isnt picking up the take properly but if its suspended from the ceiling the capsule can be lowered to the desired height and give the singer something to aim there performance at.

each singer had there own preferances but the big soul divas loved it suspended from the ceiling with the capsule hung about eye level so they could tilt there heads back and really belt the songs out .

if they wanted a more intimate recording wed sit them on a bar stool with the mic on a stand and a pop sheild in front of them with dimmed lighting wed even turn out the lights in the control room and just watch them in darkness its amazing just how much passion a singer can give if they think there all alone in the studio ..brilliant memorys :)
 
waxxy said:
im sorry but your wrong the mic wouldnt pick up enough of the vocals as the singer would be singing into the mic body instead of the capsule.
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No...

I'm sorry...

you're wrong...

:confused:


I do not know why this is such a difficult concept for some people to understand...

Here, I just made a picture for you in order to illustrate the principle and attached it to this post.

The same would hold true if the mic was sideways or if you turned your head upside down...

you can position yourself in front of the capsule at the exact same position...

Your voice comes out of your mouth and and hits the mic the same exact way regardless of which way the mic is positioned...

The singer would NOT be singing into the body of the mic unless he/she is blind or stupid... just point at the capsule and say "sing at this part of the mic"... If a singer is going to somehow sing "into the body of the mic", he/she could just as easily do that if the mic was upside down... and in that case, you should also be worried about the singer missing the mic completely and singing into a table lamp, a slice of pizza or just into the air...

just think about it... it is simple logic.
 
its not a difficult thing to understand and i respect you took time too get photos but the thing i was talking about was the reason we did the mic hanging from the ceiling i was taught too do it this way ,the guy who taught me in my resindency was a former member and enginner of 10cc and also enginnered many classic albums from the 70/80/90s and is now working for lucasfilms and disney so too say that he was wrong in what he taught me then thats a bit arrogant too say the least.

every engineer places mics a little bit differently to the next all use different mics and waystoo record and its the same for every singer some have great studio instincts and can position themselfs perfectlly to give the best takes everytime so need to have the best atmosphere to record and for people who cant sing as long or as loudly we hung mics to open there vocal cords up the pic you produced is just a standard placement and as you say and your correct a mic at that hight can be postioned how you want but only if the singer can give a good take or is happy to sing at that level also each mic has pros and cons so some cant be postioned how you like they have to be fixed in a certain way to have them record perfectlly.

each to there own ..in my studio i dont record vocals that much and when i do its mainly rap/mc vocals so in mine theres no need to hang it up .

we also used to record guitars in a old warehouse next door and to get ambience theyd put the guitar amps into the derilict warehouse dangle the mics above the amps to record the reverb and atmosphere theyd also have mics i weird things like tin baths and tin buckets also recording at the same time to record the weird reverbs coming into them from the amps .
all this would be fed into the desk on seperate channels then fed into its own stereo bus which was then compressed wed record this to analogue tape then bounced to dat for storage.
effects like this would be used in movies/games or intros for rock bands wanting something weird.

hanging mics up has lots of uses and is safe to do but if your ever unsure remember to place some kind of cushioning underneath it .
 
...or imagine you point a spray bottle at the mic and spray water on it pointing directly at it...

Do this with the mic positioned upright, sideways and upside-down...

...then turn the spray bottle sideways and then upside-down while spraying...

All the sprays will hit the mic the same ways...

...just like a voice would!
 
dvyce said:
...or imagine you point a spray bottle at the mic and spray water on it pointing directly at it...

Do this with the mic positioned upright, sideways and upside-down...

...then turn the spray bottle sideways and then upside-down while spraying...

All the sprays will hit the mic the same ways...

...just like a voice would!
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Sounds True.
 
this is getting pointless a water spray and the way your vocals leave your mouth are totally different .the dispersall off water vapor is greater than soundwaves ..soundwaves in general travel in straight lines water vapour coming from a bottle covers a greater range as it leaves the bottle in a cone shape so it will cover the mic at some point.

youve not read anything ive wrote properly what your explaining has got nothing too do with what i was trying to explain your just placing a mic at one height and twisting it in different directions and as i explained if the mouth is at the same height as the capsule then it doesnt matter if its up/down/sideways the soundwaves travel to the capsule the same way but doesnt offer any improvement or changes to a take.
but the way i explained is used to maximise air intake /relaxation of the vocal cords/volume with the head postitioned slightly up the voice can travel much clearly than someone singing with there chin down as this causes the vocal cords to be constricted.
i dont know what studios you learned at or uni you learned at but in manchester england thats the way i was taught,i was taught for over 10 years and im gonna believe what some guy whos been in the music buisness for over 30 years teachs me than someone on a forum ..
sorry mate
 
waxxy said:
its not a difficult thing to understand and i respect you took time too get photos but the thing i was talking about was the reason we did the mic hanging from the ceiling i was taught too do it this way ,the guy who taught me in my resindency was a former member and enginner of 10cc and also enginnered many classic albums from the 70/80/90s and is now working for lucasfilms and disney so too say that he was wrong in what he taught me then thats a bit arrogant too say the least.
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1. I never said it is "wrong" to hang a mic from the ceiling or to position it upside down. I said that as long as the mic is in the location you want it, it makes absolutely no difference whether the mic is upside-down, rightside-up or sideways. I was talking about the idea of the "singing into the mic body instead of the capsule" making no sense... I was talking about the idea of it somehow sounding different or picking up a voice differently.

2. just because somebody has some credits to their name does not mean they know everything (or that they know anything for that matter.) Lots of "engineers" pick up bad habbits or bad information that they carry with them through the years.

3. It is not "arrogant" to question what people say to you. It is "foolish" NOT to if you have actual knowledge or reason to believe that the person is wrong.

4. ...and you think it is "arrogant" of me to question this guy, but what about you presuming that I am just "someone on a forum"? You do not know what my credits are or what I have worked on or who I have worked with or for how long.





waxxy said:
every engineer places mics a little bit differently to the next all use different mics and waystoo record and its the same for every singer some have great studio instincts and can position themselfs perfectlly to give the best takes everytime so need to have the best atmosphere to record and for people who cant sing as long or as loudly we hung mics to open there vocal cords up the pic you produced is just a standard placement and as you say and your correct a mic at that hight can be postioned how you want but only if the singer can give a good take or is happy to sing at that level also each mic has pros and cons so some cant be postioned how you like they have to be fixed in a certain way to have them record perfectlly.

each to there own ..in my studio i dont record vocals that much and when i do its mainly rap/mc vocals so in mine theres no need to hang it up .
Click to expand...

Like I said, I never said anything about what would be a proper mic position.

I never said there is a "right" or a "wrong" way to position a mic...

...in fact, I said the OPPOSITE of that: I said that not only is there no right or wrong position, but there is not even a sonic "better" or "worse" since it makes no sonic difference either way.

I was only talking about the fact that there is no sonic difference between upside-down, rightside-up and sideways...

...and that the reason people turn mics upside-down is to accommodate space or to reach somewhere, etc... not because it "sounds different" or because "you'd be singing into the body of the mic if the capsule were in the same position and the only difference being the orientation of the mic body as up or down"...


AND...

my picture applies regardless of what the mic position is.

I even made a new one for you showing the mic higher with the singers head pointed up to allow him to "open his vocal chords"...

No matter what "upside down"mic position you show me, there is a "rightside up" version of it that will sound exactly the same.




waxxy said:
we also used to record guitars in a old warehouse next door and to get ambience theyd put the guitar amps into the derilict warehouse dangle the mics above the amps to record the reverb and atmosphere theyd also have mics i weird things like tin baths and tin buckets also recording at the same time to record the weird reverbs coming into them from the amps .
all this would be fed into the desk on seperate channels then fed into its own stereo bus which was then compressed wed record this to analogue tape then bounced to dat for storage.
effects like this would be used in movies/games or intros for rock bands wanting something weird.

hanging mics up has lots of uses and is safe to do but if your ever unsure remember to place some kind of cushioning underneath it .
Click to expand...

None of that stuff above is related in any way to this discussion.

There are many reasons to put mics in all sorts of positions...

BUT...

none of this relates to "the reason for positioning a mic upside down vs rightside up when you will be performing directly into the capsule"
 
waxxy said:
this is getting pointless a water spray and the way your vocals leave your mouth are totally different .the dispersall off water vapor is greater than soundwaves ..soundwaves in general travel in straight lines water vapour coming from a bottle covers a greater range as it leaves the bottle in a cone shape so it will cover the mic at some point.
Click to expand...

Actually, sound waves do not travel in straight lines.

If they did travel in straight lines, you would only be able to hear when somebody was speaking directly at you... you wouldn't be able to hear when someone is yelling in the opposite direction... you wouldn't be able to hear a car driving down the street... you wouldn't be able to hear birds chirping in the trees... you wouldn't be able to hear the TV from the next room.. etc, etc

Just think about it.


waxxy said:
youve not read anything ive wrote properly what your explaining has got nothing too do with what i was trying to explain
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You are right... I had not read anything you wrote when I made the spray bottle analogy...

BECAUSE...

I made my post the same time you made yours.

I was not responding to you.

I wan adding another thought to my previous post to help illustrate my point.

I hadn't seen your post until a day later.





waxxy said:
your just placing a mic at one height and twisting it in different directions and as i explained if the mouth is at the same height as the capsule then it doesnt matter if its up/down/sideways the soundwaves travel to the capsule the same way but doesnt offer any improvement or changes to a take.
but the way i explained is used to maximise air intake /relaxation of the vocal cords/volume with the head postitioned slightly up the voice can travel much clearly than someone singing with there chin down as this causes the vocal cords to be constricted.
Click to expand...

1. I never said anything about the idea of positioning a mic above the singers head... i never said that was "improper"... I only said there is no reason to turn the mic upside down to do that.

2. I attached another pic to my last post (but i'll attach it here, too) showing how it applies to any mic position. The same exact thing holds true regardless of whether the mic is mouth height, raised above the vocalists head or down at the ground.




waxxy said:
i dont know what studios you learned at or uni you learned at but in manchester england thats the way i was taught,i was taught for over 10 years and im gonna believe what some guy whos been in the music buisness for over 30 years teachs me than someone on a forum ..
sorry mate
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Like I said, you do not know what I have done in this business, so you shouldn't necessarily assume I have done any less than the guy who was teaching you... but you can look at anything I have said on FP and see that I have an excellent track record and that I only speak of what I know. (I am not looking for business here or anything like that nor am I looking to brag about my projects, so I don't see the reason to discuss them)
 
dyce obviusly you know best you know more than anyone else and in fact your so wrong on things its doing my head in its like talking to a politician..

soundwaves do travel in straight lines the reason you can hear sound from different directions is the fact it bounces of objects before it hits you if it doesnt you can pinpoint the direction a sound comes from much easier if someones behind you you hear the sound from behind not from the front ..so you think about it !!

if sound didnt travel in straight lines technology such as 5.1 wouldnt work as youd just have a mash off sound sound travels to you from the direction its coming from so if a right speaker is too the right of your head you know its coming from the right if sound doesnt travel in straight lines as you state then 5.1 encoding wouldnt work would it?think about that one einstein.

you obvioulsly think you know more than anyone else because you cant understand or even comprehend that i may be right and you may be wrong.same wit you you dont know what tracks ive worked on how long ive been doing this or anything else ive done i too could brag and brag about things but a forum like this doesnt need that crap

if you want proof read this ..
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Sound/interference.htm

the part too read is the (Sound Traveling Between Materials)section.
now if after reading that you still dont believe sound travels in straight lines then join steven hawkins for dinner.

anothe thing before i go get my dinner if sound doesnt travel in straight lines then bats wouldnt be able to fly or hunt..sonar wouldnt work...etc ..sound has to travel in a straight line for it too be bounced back too the bat or sonar if it didnt a bat couldnt hunt or detect were its prey is..
 
Useless fact to derail thread: I've had it explained to me once that a soundwave is better represented as a spiral/tube, as it takes into account the third dimension. I don't really know how this helps or hinders the conversation, but as I was reading all this in-fighting, it crossed my mind.
 
another thing if your a enginner or producer or whatever and youve been to uni/college one of the first lessons i got taught was how the ear percieves sound and altough sound travels in lines the ear doesnt listen in straight lines if it did youd never hear what was at the front or at the back off you.

the ear acts as a funnell gathering all soundwaves, it then channels that information down the ear canal were your mind then process the information into a kind of 3d spacial diagram of the outside world .
its a trait all sucessful predators have ,to survive our bodys had to adapt to think spacially if we didnt there wouldnt be humans here now we needed spacial awarness to hunt sucessfully we needed to hear were our prey was not just see were it was and also we needed to hear were other preadators were thats why our ears dont hear in straight lines..

and also the workd soundwave means the actual sound is a wave but how it gets projected is via straight lines..lesson over :)
 
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