R
rando
New member
I never knew or SEEN that in a studio.
Staggerlee
New member
Well since massive mastrering is the recording star, producer and engineer of the century all in one, i SAY WE SHOULD BLINDLY TRUST HIM and never ever express an opinion different than his.
To be honest with yoiu I checked out your website few days ago, and i wonder how after it reads that yur work volume is really high, you still find time to answer posts here every single day, and at least several times day too? Aren't you too busy earning money with your vast and unending knowledge to deal with a bunch of amateurs on an internet forum?
Can you please answer that? Thank you....
To be honest with yoiu I checked out your website few days ago, and i wonder how after it reads that yur work volume is really high, you still find time to answer posts here every single day, and at least several times day too? Aren't you too busy earning money with your vast and unending knowledge to deal with a bunch of amateurs on an internet forum?
Can you please answer that? Thank you....
M
MASSIVE Mastering
Guest
I rarely NOT see it in a studio. Dozens and dozens and dozens of them.rando said:
No doubt, I've recorded my fair share of vocals using condensers also (usually followed by a big fight trying to get them to sound like they would have if they were recorded through a dynamic in the first place). And certainly, *some* vocals, depending on the mix, might benefit from the use of a good condenser. I'm not trying to say that it's "not done" by any means.
But this freaky myth that dynamics are never used - Or even "rarely" used - That's just complete and utter garbage. *Especially* with aggressive vocals, where a dynamic would be the natural choice in the vast majority of cases...
Boys to Men - Whitney Houston - Mariah Carey - Condenser mics and *TONS* of headroom. No question.
Almost anything else - Rock, rap, metal, country, close-up blues - Stuff that is tailor made for the response of a dynamic mic. To that end, if someone ever said "You get ONE mic for vocals - That's it. Any price. What do you want?" I'd want the best sounding, most versatile vocal mic that I could find - And specifically, it'd probably be the EV RE-20.
I detect sarcasm here - But I'll explain anyway.Staggerlee said:
I've been recording since I was "a kid" - I first started experimenting with multi-track recording when I was around 12 years old. Long before "home recording" was part of the common lexicon. Long before "digital recording" in "home studios" was even a dream. I've worked in home studios, project studios, professional recording facilities, live and theatrical venues, etc., in modes from intern, to independent contractor, to full-time employee, to chief engineer, etc. I'd hope that *maybe* that would put a little gravitas into my opinions. That being said, I'm not trying to force-feed anyone. I'm just trying to arm them with a little knowledge (and try to dispell some misinformation at the same time). You can lead a horse to water and all that...
In the last 10 years or so, I've heard, first hand, the quality of "home brew" recordings go down considerably. A few years ago, an associate turned me on to a couple of internet forums. After reading some of the horrifically ignorant crap that's thrown around as "gospel" it was easy to see why the level of quality of projects coming in has gone down, while the quality of the gear and access to it has gone up.
Strolling around some of these forums and seeing the "first day" basics being totally ignored - and in some cases, actually fought against, it wasn't hard to see why...
At this point, it's almost a reflex - Surf the forums when the gear is warming up, during assessment passes, and perhaps load-in. I don't make critical decisions until the amp has been on for at least a half-hour. Same with almost anything else. If I decide a certain compressor is going to be used on a particular track, it's going to be at least a half hour before it's used. The gear needs to warm up and stabilize before it's going to be tweaked. That leaves a good amount of time to go "myth trashing" on some forums.
Essentially, if I feel that I can impart some sort of basic knowledge to an audience that can use it, it will make better recordings all around. Some day, I might have to work on some of those projects - Or with some of those forum members. And with some of the misinformation going around, I don't have nearly the time it would ever take to try to combat it at more than a very basic level.
But I have to argue your point - You're wrong. I don't tell people to not have an opinion. I *DO* however tell people where they're just plain out in left field... "Condensers are for studio use and dynamics are for live use" is just plain wrong. It's totally not the case. It's bad information. Untrue. Nonsense. Non-factual. Completely and utterly inaccurate.
Am I telling people that you *must* use a dynamic for vocals? Absolutely not. You use the mic that best serves the sound. But to discount the use of a dynamic mic on grounds as ignorant and inaccurate that "they're made for stage use" is a disservice to the type of mic that is probably responsible for more classic vocal takes than any other.
If someone's opinion is that a condenser sounds better on a particular vocalist's voice, that's fine with me. If they're going to use a condenser "because dynamics are used for live use" then they're making a decision based on ignorance with no basis in fact. I have a hard time sitting around watching that happen.
And yes, I've turned into somewhat of a "forum junkie" - It's great networking, it's great to get opinions on new gear and to keep up on the current trends. I hang out at several forums geared to everything from professionals, to home & hobby, to novice, to "budding amature" on down. I make an attempt to contribute to all of the forums I hang around at. It's good karma, it's good networking.
But as far as why I:
That's simple. If you want to help, you go where the help is needed. If you want to grow a forest, you need to plant the seeds in fertile ground.
I can hang out at the pro forums all day going back and forth about if the 5670 tube has a mellower sound than the 6386 in a variable-mu compressor. But that is about talking about tweaking at an almost microscopic level campared to "recording hot levels" or "only using condenser mics."
The "rookie" forums serve the people who need to have clear, solid information before they start to develop bad habits. They're the people who will be arguing about which tube sounds better several years from now - *IF* those bad habits don't keep them from their potential.
And to be quite frank with you, I take a certain amount of "heat" from some other professionals for hanging out on the rookie forums. And sometimes, it gets SO overwhelming (the amount of misinformation) that I feel like just giving up on it.
Then, I see a thread like this: https://www.futureproducers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161976 and it makes it all worthwhile. It sucks to a point, as this is one of those "first day" things that someone should have a solid handle on before they're ever allowed near the "RECORD" button - But this guy is stepping into a completely new world of quality right now - And leaving a lot of others behind in his dust.
If you want to call me names for that, go right ahead. I don't care. I've been called much worse. Knowing that I "got through" to someone at that most basic level is going to eclipse any of what you can throw at me anyway.
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Staggerlee
New member
Agreed, u got my respect/ My appologies, it is just that when someone talks like they know everything, it raises a red flag in my mind, i.e. its probably bull****.
My word was that from my experience condensers are more sensitive and have a wider range of frequencies. or at least that is what I hear from what I have experimented with. Of course a lot of pros use 58s, as handhelds in a studio because it gives them the feeling they are singing live. It just takes very good mic technique to pull that off.
Anyway.
The debate about how much home recording quality has gone down, I must disagree. I have experimented with multitrack recording for a long time too, long before i could even afford a 4track which by then was obsolete anyway. The thing is that in the hands of an amateur even a world class studio is going to sound bad. The thing is that digitial, although it has made it easy, has not solved all problems. Recording and engineering are as much an art as songwriting itself. Everyone now wants the exact preset and software to make everything sound like (put a name here of the next one hit wonder producer).
The problem is that people are lazy. Very very lazy and they are not willing to really learn, they expect to hear what they wanna hear.
That said, I have heard some really good home recordings, however they are usually done by people who have done their time in a pro studio, i.e. they ve done the analog domain, etc.
My word was that from my experience condensers are more sensitive and have a wider range of frequencies. or at least that is what I hear from what I have experimented with. Of course a lot of pros use 58s, as handhelds in a studio because it gives them the feeling they are singing live. It just takes very good mic technique to pull that off.
Anyway.
The debate about how much home recording quality has gone down, I must disagree. I have experimented with multitrack recording for a long time too, long before i could even afford a 4track which by then was obsolete anyway. The thing is that in the hands of an amateur even a world class studio is going to sound bad. The thing is that digitial, although it has made it easy, has not solved all problems. Recording and engineering are as much an art as songwriting itself. Everyone now wants the exact preset and software to make everything sound like (put a name here of the next one hit wonder producer).
The problem is that people are lazy. Very very lazy and they are not willing to really learn, they expect to hear what they wanna hear.
That said, I have heard some really good home recordings, however they are usually done by people who have done their time in a pro studio, i.e. they ve done the analog domain, etc.
D
dfoster004
New member
OK, now that thats cleared up, hey Massive, or anyone who can help, what do you think is the best preamp to use with the RE20 or the SM57? I think that dynamic mics dont need phantom power. So does this have any effect on the selection of my preamp? Are there any good preamps out there tailored for dynamics?
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Beatz Galore
New member
Massive is THAT dude, seriously
I was also led to believe that I absolutely NEEDED a Large Diaphfram (sp) Consdenser mic for recording vocals. Now that I know that's not 100% accurate, it makes me question if the mics I've used THUS far have truely complimented me.
I'm definintely gonna be looking into both the RE20 & the SM7
Oh and check out tweakheadz Mic page, all he talks about is condenser mics also.
So would u reccomend purchasing the SM-7? My team raps but not AGRESSIVE, hard, yelling type stuff LOL. Just basic rapping.
I'm definintely gonna try to demo a RE20 asap though.
I was also led to believe that I absolutely NEEDED a Large Diaphfram (sp) Consdenser mic for recording vocals. Now that I know that's not 100% accurate, it makes me question if the mics I've used THUS far have truely complimented me.
I'm definintely gonna be looking into both the RE20 & the SM7
Oh and check out tweakheadz Mic page, all he talks about is condenser mics also.
MASSIVE Mastering said:
So would u reccomend purchasing the SM-7? My team raps but not AGRESSIVE, hard, yelling type stuff LOL. Just basic rapping.
I'm definintely gonna try to demo a RE20 asap though.
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M
MASSIVE Mastering
Guest
Lemme try to hit these up -
1) Apologies not necessary - 1a) I'm really not trying to sound like a "know it all" - I don't feel as I'm an "expert" at much of anything in particular. I'm just a "know-some-stuff" for the most part. I know that I can sound... passionate (?) about certain subjects though. And on some of those subjects, I have very strong beliefs OR strong opinions *against* non-opinions.
For example - I'm anything but an expert on acoustic treatment. But I know a few basic theories on treatment and measurement. I also know (or feel very passionately and strongly about) that having a room that is properly treated is of the absolute and utmost importance in dealing with recording - Inaccurate space, inaccurate everything. It's just logic. But there are those who figure the room is least important. I'll argue them till they give up. It just doesn't hold water.
Anyway -
2) Generally, condensers *are* more sensitive and *do* have a wider frequency response than most dynamics - Which is *exactly* why they don't tend to flatter the human voice like a dynamic does. And again - *some* voices - mostly the breathy, mellow, female voices where you actually want to hear every detail down to what their teeth are hearing, a condenser might be just the ticket. Acoustic guitar, wind instruments - Those things that you want to reproduce as faithful as possible to the source -
But when you want "in your face" with a maximum of impact & proximity effect and a minimum of lip smacking, breathing, room sound, moving noise and that awful presence peak in most cheaper condensers, it's a rare occasion that a dynamic doesn't fit the bill perfectly. Not for the transparency, but for what it does to the voice.
You've been in a room with a drum set. Normally it'll sound WAY different than it does when it's recorded, right? Certainly. A lot of that has to do with the mics, placement and treatment of the signal.
When you hear a great guitar or a wind section in a room, you want the recording to sound *just* like it.
When you hear MosDef yelling in your ear, you don't. Mariah Crey, maybe. Barry White? Condenser. Toni Braxton? Two condensers and a bag of ice.
3) True - The "better" of the home recordings are WAY better. But the "worse" are WAAAAAAYYYY worse. Of course, there's no accounting for quantity - "Back in the day" a "home studio" was an investment of tens of thousands for the most basic digital rig. The number of users was huge, but far more limited than it is now.
Heck, my first DAW (Pentium Pro 200MHz was $5,000 with a $2,500 CD-R drive (2x), a $2,000 *16-bit* sound card, and around $2,000 in software just to get it to work. This was just a digital mastering rig - Nothing fancy, no UAD, just very basic editing and frame-accurate PQ logging capabilities, RedBook burning and error returns. And that was the *cheap* solution.
Now, you can have all that, with 20 times the processing power and speed in 24-bit with room to spare for under $1,000.
But in short, anyone who was investing in that kind of horsepower back then had to be "pretty serious" about it - Mostly experienced engineers making the jump to digital so they wouldn't be left behind by it. You quickly figured out that 0dBVU was around -18dBFS and that's all you needed to know to be proficient at it (besides learning the quirks of the software). Now, as it's *aimed at* the home & hobby market, there are literally *millions* of people doing this - for fun, to make a little extra cash, as a prt-time or full-time venture. All skill levels included. It's the skill level table that's turned - 10 years ago, most were semi-pro or pro users. Now, most just started in the last few years.
Preamps - The preamp can still make-or-break the best microphone.
On the SM7, that thing has almost ribbon-like gain requirements. Grace Design makes a special "Ribbon" version of the 101 that has a little hotter pregain stage. AEA makes on also. Is that much gain really necessary? Probably not, but it wouldn't hurt to have it. Even without it, I think the average preamp can handle it without much trouble.
Top runners in the "budget-friendly" preamp race (IMO/E). Grace Design's "101" - True's P*Solo - FMR's "RNP" (dual channel - Bonus). All in basically the same price range (around $500-ish). All cross that line into "professional" (for lack of a better term) quality sound.
@ Beatz Galore - I'd go with the RE20 first... The SM7 is a great mic, but not a "cornerstone" if you know what I mean. The RE20 you'll be reaching for every day whether you're recording vocals, bass, guitar cabinets, brass - you can throw it into a kick drum, or down the gullet of a tuba (or a blood-soaked death-metal vocalist). While the SM7 would come out for certain occasions, it's not quite as flexible in the grand scheme. DISCLAIMER: Back when I was a "rock star" in training (yes, I'm a former long-haired heavy-metal guitar-throwing but melodic signing freak) the SM7 was *the* mic for my voice. I was always run through RE20's, 414's, U87's, and the like. They were okay - The RE20 was great, but not quite what was on the menu. Then one day, we were recording at a fantastic place downtown (Chicago) and they put a SM7 in front of me -
"I normally use an EV RE20" I said.
"I heard your last album" the producer replied.
And he was right. The thing was the ess-ayech-eye-tea for my "bari-tenor" pipes in that space.
1) Apologies not necessary - 1a) I'm really not trying to sound like a "know it all" - I don't feel as I'm an "expert" at much of anything in particular. I'm just a "know-some-stuff" for the most part. I know that I can sound... passionate (?) about certain subjects though. And on some of those subjects, I have very strong beliefs OR strong opinions *against* non-opinions.
For example - I'm anything but an expert on acoustic treatment. But I know a few basic theories on treatment and measurement. I also know (or feel very passionately and strongly about) that having a room that is properly treated is of the absolute and utmost importance in dealing with recording - Inaccurate space, inaccurate everything. It's just logic. But there are those who figure the room is least important. I'll argue them till they give up. It just doesn't hold water.
Anyway -
2) Generally, condensers *are* more sensitive and *do* have a wider frequency response than most dynamics - Which is *exactly* why they don't tend to flatter the human voice like a dynamic does. And again - *some* voices - mostly the breathy, mellow, female voices where you actually want to hear every detail down to what their teeth are hearing, a condenser might be just the ticket. Acoustic guitar, wind instruments - Those things that you want to reproduce as faithful as possible to the source -
But when you want "in your face" with a maximum of impact & proximity effect and a minimum of lip smacking, breathing, room sound, moving noise and that awful presence peak in most cheaper condensers, it's a rare occasion that a dynamic doesn't fit the bill perfectly. Not for the transparency, but for what it does to the voice.
You've been in a room with a drum set. Normally it'll sound WAY different than it does when it's recorded, right? Certainly. A lot of that has to do with the mics, placement and treatment of the signal.
When you hear a great guitar or a wind section in a room, you want the recording to sound *just* like it.
When you hear MosDef yelling in your ear, you don't. Mariah Crey, maybe. Barry White? Condenser. Toni Braxton? Two condensers and a bag of ice.
3) True - The "better" of the home recordings are WAY better. But the "worse" are WAAAAAAYYYY worse. Of course, there's no accounting for quantity - "Back in the day" a "home studio" was an investment of tens of thousands for the most basic digital rig. The number of users was huge, but far more limited than it is now.
Heck, my first DAW (Pentium Pro 200MHz was $5,000 with a $2,500 CD-R drive (2x), a $2,000 *16-bit* sound card, and around $2,000 in software just to get it to work. This was just a digital mastering rig - Nothing fancy, no UAD, just very basic editing and frame-accurate PQ logging capabilities, RedBook burning and error returns. And that was the *cheap* solution.
Now, you can have all that, with 20 times the processing power and speed in 24-bit with room to spare for under $1,000.
But in short, anyone who was investing in that kind of horsepower back then had to be "pretty serious" about it - Mostly experienced engineers making the jump to digital so they wouldn't be left behind by it. You quickly figured out that 0dBVU was around -18dBFS and that's all you needed to know to be proficient at it (besides learning the quirks of the software). Now, as it's *aimed at* the home & hobby market, there are literally *millions* of people doing this - for fun, to make a little extra cash, as a prt-time or full-time venture. All skill levels included. It's the skill level table that's turned - 10 years ago, most were semi-pro or pro users. Now, most just started in the last few years.
Preamps - The preamp can still make-or-break the best microphone.
On the SM7, that thing has almost ribbon-like gain requirements. Grace Design makes a special "Ribbon" version of the 101 that has a little hotter pregain stage. AEA makes on also. Is that much gain really necessary? Probably not, but it wouldn't hurt to have it. Even without it, I think the average preamp can handle it without much trouble.
Top runners in the "budget-friendly" preamp race (IMO/E). Grace Design's "101" - True's P*Solo - FMR's "RNP" (dual channel - Bonus). All in basically the same price range (around $500-ish). All cross that line into "professional" (for lack of a better term) quality sound.
@ Beatz Galore - I'd go with the RE20 first... The SM7 is a great mic, but not a "cornerstone" if you know what I mean. The RE20 you'll be reaching for every day whether you're recording vocals, bass, guitar cabinets, brass - you can throw it into a kick drum, or down the gullet of a tuba (or a blood-soaked death-metal vocalist). While the SM7 would come out for certain occasions, it's not quite as flexible in the grand scheme. DISCLAIMER: Back when I was a "rock star" in training (yes, I'm a former long-haired heavy-metal guitar-throwing but melodic signing freak) the SM7 was *the* mic for my voice. I was always run through RE20's, 414's, U87's, and the like. They were okay - The RE20 was great, but not quite what was on the menu. Then one day, we were recording at a fantastic place downtown (Chicago) and they put a SM7 in front of me -
"I normally use an EV RE20" I said.
"I heard your last album" the producer replied.
And he was right. The thing was the ess-ayech-eye-tea for my "bari-tenor" pipes in that space.
B
Beatz Galore
New member
MASSIVE Mastering said:
Alright, now if it were YOU, which of these mic pre's would get? I can probably afford either but I definintely want the BEST bang for my buck.
Now, as far as the RE20. Are you saying you'd definintely recommend that over ANY condenser mic in my $500-$600 price range?
M
MASSIVE Mastering
Guest
If I needed two channels, the RNP - It's the only player in the game. If only one channel is needed, probably the True... Months ago, I would've said the Grace - Maybe next week I'll say Grace again (heh!). But that True unit is really something from the recordings I've heard it on...Beatz Galore said:
On the mic - If I were looking for a "workhorse" vocal mic, that is, a mic that "just sounds right" on almost anyone you put it in front of, I'd get the RE20.
If I needed *ONE* mic to do *EVERYTHING* I might change that... But (A) I hope to never get into that situation and (B) I really don't think such a mic exists... The more sensitive mics can't handle the dynamic stuff (drums, agressive vocals, bass transients) and the more robust mics don't do justice to more detailed sounds (accoustic guitar, woodwinds, piano, overheads).
Although, I've heard a decent recording or two done with aboslutely nothing but a few SM57's also... (Don't miss that link there...)
But seriously - If you have a RE20 and a True P-Solo and you can't get a good ("pro") vocal sound, you need a new vocalist.
Or something else is just plain wrong.
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Beatz Galore
New member
MASSIVE Mastering said:If I needed two channels, the RNP - It's the only player in the game. If only one channel is needed, probably the True... Months ago, I would've said the Grace - Maybe next week I'll say Grace again (heh!). But that True unit is really something from the recordings I've heard it on...
On the mic - If I were looking for a "workhorse" vocal mic, that is, a mic that "just sounds right" on almost anyone you put it in front of, I'd get the RE20.
If I needed *ONE* mic to do *EVERYTHING* I might change that... But (A) I hope to never get into that situation and (B) I really don't think such a mic exists... The more sensitive mics can't handle the dynamic stuff (drums, agressive vocals, bass transients) and the more robust mics don't do justice to more detailed sounds (accoustic guitar, woodwinds, piano, overheads).
Although, I've heard a decent recording or two done with aboslutely nothing but a few SM57's also... (Don't miss that link there...)
But seriously - If you have a RE20 and a True P-Solo and you can't get a good ("pro") vocal sound, you need a new vocalist.
The RE20, True P Solo & the Grace design are all atop my list right now.
Thanks man
L
lesunONE
New member
thanks a lot you guys have been agreat help. like in said i don't know ish bout anything vocal wise yet. thanks for the advice