drum machines

No do not get a Motif. It's a complicated machine and cumbersome to learn and work with. If you get this as your first tool to learn music production, you will become very frustrated and not want to learn. I know. I have a drummer friend going through this right now. The MMT8 is simple, and gets the job done, teaching you a LOT about the fundamentals a MIDI messages, and how they work very easily. An EXCELLENT learning tool. As for the Motif, I took one look at the manual and told him it would take ME over a month to get that thing nailed, and I've been using all kinds of products from Japanese, British, and American electronic music production equipment companies for the better part of two decades now. That thing is complex and convoluted. Lots of stuff, but you kids need to stop reading the advertisements and try one out. You'll see that they are NOT fun to try to use to get what you want out of them.


Ape
 
Ape, we are back to square one!!

Who in the world would want to sequence on a hardware machine? Needless to say to learn to make music now on a dedicated sequencer?

If u already know great, but dont start learning midi sequencing.

Electronic music has evolved lots in the last 20 years. Looping, sampling, vsti, fx etc. I hardly use midi, I record the keyboards parts live and them play with them in da sequencer.

Heck with programs like reason, FLstudio, CubaseSX, logic, acid you can get going in music without knowing about midi at all.

Anyways, I am a bass player, and I do hate computers for music but I was there before midi, midi, samplers, workstations, pcs, and post-pc-retro era. And I must say, pc's have made it very cheap to get a powerful music set up.

My guitarist friend got a G4 mac with logic about a year ago and he has done his whole record on it basically. He had NO idea about pc's nor about midi.

u cant beat that

I

the motif is good to playback your secuences/samples
 
I'm down with the two sequencers. We sequence with a Triton and Ensoniq EPS. EPS is getting repairs done. As for the mixer had a 1212 but gig abuse killed it. So I'm looking. I think our live setup is going to move away from the computer completely. Atsome point I will have a Quadraverb for each instrument. They are so cheap and they sound great. Noisy for studio use but good enough for live. I would love to bring the Drum trax out too.
 
Samie,
I am a bassist as well, and please, I tell you now as a cat who has been in both the music and the business end of things for a lot of years (mostly music), every skill you have helps you out. Saying that learning MIDI, ESPECIALLY in music production is not a necessity is like saying you don't have to learn to tie a knot because there's velcro, or you can just hold your laces tight with your hands. Yes you are correct in your statement, but not very practical in it. The MMT8 is a supreme teacher of fundamentals which is what most producers these days have a total lack of. You get a couple programs, and a couple boxes and you think you're the next big thing. The cats that learn all they can, especially the stuff from square one, then work their way up are the cats that will endure while those who say "I don't need to learn ____" come and go with the wind, or go nowhere at all.

Tell you Samie, you want the education and the REAL wisdom, I'll let a REAL master lay it down, cuz I'm still a novice next to this guy. If you've been doi this a while then you can clearly see how things have changed. If you want to stay in, you GOTTA keep up. It sucks but we're all making it it that way. S*** I'd just like to find a couple bars where the cats hang when they're not doin sessions and just have jams with them, throwing scores back and forth, and seeing what happens, but that ain't tody for most of us. Could be, but it's not.

Anyhoos, dig this:

http://www.mikevisceglia.com/int012003a.htm

That THE DUDE, or at least on the top five.

Enjoy the read.

Bizarre, I hope your EPS works again soon. Good box. Toured with one for years.

Ape
 
Sure Ape, I agree with u all the way, however reality is out there.

Midi came about to solve certain limits in musical interfaces which have definately been overcomed with time. Its still a great thing to know but it is no longer necesary

Isabel is a great personal friend of mine, she knows 0 about music theory, 0 about audio equip, 0 about midi. She is a graphics designer!

however she is now working on her second album, reviews in the underground scene have been great on the first album. Theys were signed up by an independent label.

She uses a tracker (fast-tracker I think) to do all her music.

http://tripnotic.de/lostbalance/band.htm

That is what is out there, now!! times have changed.

Now u just need to like music, to make music.

Hey I dont have a record out and I know midi, audio etc etc etc.

sorry man
 
By your agrument somebody could pick up a bass, not know how to tune it, what the notes are, or even how to hold it correctly and score the gig with James Brown. Let me tell you, bro: it ain't necessarily so.

Now if your dig at the bottom refers to me...you're off on that one, cuz I have dozens of releases out and all have sold down to the last copy, on vinyl, CD, and even tape. Music ain't just about audiences, it's about the art and the craft too, and if you play bass, then you know you HAVE to study techniques and theory if you want to be able to play stuff. Otherwise...you're just doing what everybody else does that thinks they're breaking the rules by not learning them. You're friend sounds like a thin, low-budget demo of Portishead meets too much radio-smooth Jazz adult contemporary. She's cute, but it won't get her very far. She's gonna have to learn the stuff.

It seems to me like we're talking about two different levels of playing, composition and performance.


Ape
 
Sure Ape, you will not get a gig with james brown!!

But there are plenty of kids out there that just pick up their guitar and start screaming and hitting the strings. They call it playing music.

Its not about making money, its about making music. Its about keeping an open mind.

Today there is room for people that know music, yet there is room for music morons.

There is room for hi-tech music, there is room for acapellas.

Room for electronic, hip-hop, rock, pop, hardcore, rapcore, alternative etc each has there own value.

Cant judge them by my standars

I play and study jazz, but Isabel has as much merit because she makes the music she wants. We are all happy..

Including people like your self that love hardware sequencer. Go for it, if that is what u want.

My point is that it Today, it is a lot simpler to get you music from your head to a CD/tape. NO need to learn 15+ old tecnologies.

The pizza delivery guy has lots of fun with an AcidDJ that came with his burner... hey, he is making music. NO need to get an mtm8 midi seq to start making music.
 
Yeah, I know, and you're right...hence the level of garbage music flooding the market. Did you read that Lee Sklar interview? As a bassist, you really should.

Yeah, we've made room for a LOT of crap music. Sure folks are having fun, but music has been cheapened to simply entertainment. Yeah, great, everybody and their mother can go and make poop music, so that people care about msuic so little that all of the greats don't play here anymore. They play outside the country cuz everybody here thinks their a goddam producer but doesn't know jack s*** about music, and the audiences' awareness is reflected in it too.

If you're playing Jazz professionallly, it's either doin standards at functions, and hotels, or you're playing that smooth crap because of the same reason that you tout for not bothering the learn MIDI. Cuz all this wonderful access with people not learning and not caring in the interest "...but everybody deserves to be able to..." is wrong dude. Not everybody should. People that have the passion to learn to do it right, and the dedication to practice for hours every single day should.

Who's to say? Look around you. Listen to how much crap is being made. I'm not trying to bag on different styles, because yes I agree that each most certainly has its own merit WHEN DONE WELL, with passion and dedication. But six months of Fruity Pro, or Reason, FastTracker2 isn't that. It's a graphic designer half-stepping, or some thug on the end of the block who's jealous of the other thug who lives across the street and wears a thicker link. It's a junior-high nerd who just grabbed a crack of Live and some rips off sample CDs, and decides they're a Live Electronic Performer. It's the 19-year-old drunkard with tattoos on his neck, hands and face playing punk tunes that thinks he can sing cuz he screams and dips***s with bad dye jobs and too much hair product scream and think he's so crazy onstage. That crap is all lame, and you know it. It's all cool and liberal to be open-minded and giving it a chance, but after it's given a chance...crap is still crap, and it don't matter who or what kind of butt it jumped out of. The only way music in the States is gonna get back to being anywhere near the level of quality that a lot of the rest of the world has is for the folks playing instruments and singing to raise the bar back to what it was and even higher. Singers NEED to be able to hit the notes. It's part of the job description, not [look cute and use a pitch corrector/harmonizer]. Players need to be able to play, not just fast and accurately, but slowly, and taking time to play each note correctly, ESPECIALLY THE BASSISTS.

THAT's why tools like an MMT-8 that seem all old-school and clunky are not at all, are useful tools, both for live performance, and for teaching beginners.

Yeah...the pizza guy is making money delivering pizza, and making music. If he wants to make a career out of pizza...stick with AcidDJ. If he wants to make a career out of music...he needs to up the ante a bit.

And as for judging others by your standards...why not? Why can't you? Who else's standards are you going to judge them by? Some A&R marketing rep's? A magazine's? Of course you judge them by your standards, because they are no better or worse than you, and really...yours is the only one you can possibly have a firm grasp of. Nobody's THAT special, except in how much energy of their lives they decide to dedicate to one thing or another. If it's music, then you have every right to guage them against what you know to be true in your experiences, at least when it comes to seeing the amount of passion and dedication involved, regardless of whether you enjoy their aesthetic or not.

Dig?


Ape
 
Here is something I notice that Ape has picked up. Most don’t do the research and it so easy. It’s great to have the advice of Ape at your finger tips. There are publications like Keyboard, Bass, Drum and Guitar specific. There are computer music specific mags like Future Music and Computer Music. Then there is the internet use google to find what you are looking for. Jomox was making waves for a while now. It’s kinda like SoundFonts -dismissed but a perfectly viable sampling solution and a flexible one. Story time. When I bought my first synthesizer, I knew what I wanted. I wanted a Juno 106. In 85, everyone was buying the Yamaha DX7. Every store I went to pushed the DX7. The DX7 didn’t inspire me. I wanted a Juno. I couldn’t afford a DX anyway. The CZ1 Just came out and it was $400 cheaper. He had one in the store so I bought it. I trusted his advice but we had a different vision. I hated the synth. What I wanted was a Juno 106. I took it back and got a Juno. I’ve been in love ever since. The moral of this story was that I played with the keyboards. I knew what I wanted to do with it. I didn’t want to sound like everyone else. I wanted to make my own noise. If it sucked, it sucks but it was my vision. Do your research. Look up the synth you want and if you can, go play with it. Sometimes you are going to meet up with people who mean well but you don’t agree with. Their vision is different than yours. When I started, I was in a band of musicians. They could copy any sound or any song. They annoyed me. I saw the amazing gift that we could do something special with. I am not a technical musician. I do have a gift of melody and a good sense of chords. So I could write the music and the players could work there magic. We would be utilizing our strength while building our weakness. Learn from each other in the process. In most cases, they were stuck in the rut. I pulled my bass out of the closet because a couple of friends had a band. I didn’t play it much after I got the Juno (Actually at all). I only had the bass about 9 months. The only reason I was invited to join was because I was friends with them. I had a Goth/Punk rocker (1987)thing going at the time. I didn’t remember how to play bass. I join the group and we rehearsed and played out first gig in 5 days. I wrote two of the song for that show -one was 2 chord song. What made the song so good was that the guitarist and the drumer played up some areas and pulled back in others. For a keyboardist, this was educational. Many times the drummer would referee discussions. I could not articulate what I wanted from guitarist and it was frustrating. Many times he was just making sounds with his guitar and fx - which were a flange and a delay. I would hear it and then give him a chordal arrangement I had. We wrote beautiful music. I wish I had a recording of it. It was really a special sound and time. I’ve really only been in one band. I’ve had side project that were really just jam session to play live to get girls. In the past year we started writing and our sound has evolved again. We started out with a drum machine and analog synth recording to a 4-track tape. I am more software oriented and he is hardware. The center focus is to play the songs. I do go back and edit but some of the stuff is just recorded live and vocals added-done. This a great thread and it started out as a drum machine question. I will add that I love the Linn 9000 – to bring it full circle.
 
Sure Ape, but remember that electronic music was looked at as crap by classical snobs' and rocker. Some still look at the electric bass as being less than an acoustic bass.

So I dont call it crap music. Its the music people listen to now. I love hip-hop, R&B, house-music etc

I do not play the bass profesionally now. i did in the past. Just studying and playing with who I want.

NOw I am into recording, managing, producing although not as a full income source...

I am a sys admin now
 
Bizarre, that's a nice story, luckily one with no ending, happy or otherwise. MMMMMMMMM Linn 9000!!!! Tell me you've talked to Forat, please.

Samie,
I'm playing bass, pro, but very little of it is my material, which is ok, it goes with the territory. The only reason I might say acoustic is "more" than electric is the handstrength required, which I'm ok to say I lack. I can play an electric upright with good action, and if some want to snob on that...let them.

What most people are listening to is crap, as it isn't much in the way of music, and doesn't carry much feeling. It's just entertainment.

Half the kids on this site, in fact most of them are making hip-hop, and most of that stuff is about maybe two to four loops, a bassline, and maybe a couple comps, a mini-moog lead if you're lucky. And then it's all about some lyrics that maybe have some rythmic value, musically speaking, but rarely, mostly just talking about penis-size and other factors to make up for the lack of it and functionality. Thus, to me, most hip-hop is crap. When somebody busts out with some more Outkast of Dr. Octagon, I'll give it respect.

House music is another one...mostly crap that my friends and I can smoke with our eyes shut. I'm not saying that good house is easy, cuz it's not. It can be, but the best stuff in my opinion usually has a LOT of nice live playing in it.

But this all comes back to levels of acceptance, lowering standards in the interest thereof, because folks just think it's cool to not have to learn as long as they look good.

Well, you're doin what you're doin. I'm gonna keep on doin what I do, and folks will either dig it and understand the difference between high standards and mediority, or not, and either they'll care or they won't until the choice is gone.

Ape
 
Ape,

I am no kid, but I do realize that each generation must have its own music revolution. Its not crap music, its their music. You had your music when you were young! Your parents problably thought it was crap music. Dont do the same as they did!

Sure now music is about loops samples, retro songs, noise.. but that is a perfect image of the world today which is a lot diferent than 20 years ago. A lot.

People dont have to play an intrument to make music now. So what's the problem? People dont have to meet to communicate either. You are there, I am here but we are "talking" and exchanging ideas. Is not as good as the real thing but is better than nothing at all.

Of course, you will keep doing what u do.. its the least you can do.

I dont think we are that far off in our thinking.
 
samie, you seem to think I'm baggin on the tools and techniques. I'm not. I use them myself. tell ya what, let me give you a link to a cool conversation between two Master bassists. You may or may not dig it, but what Jeff Berlin has to say is spot on.

http://www.basslinks.nl/basstobass_2.html

It's not just "the music of today". It's an industry dumbing audiences down and feeding them garbage wrapped in nice packaging. As far as the tools and techniques go, I know PLENTY of people pushing music forward with just about any tool you can imagine. It's seriously the level of talent, dedication and skill in the industry pushed pop icons that has brought utter crap to the masses. OutKast might be an exception. Some of Missy Elliots might be as well, but for the most part it's so much more about production and less about talent. This is an example just using hip-hop, but pretty much any popular musical style has it's examples of good, and lame-that-sells.

I think it's a symptom of an industry that is fueled on selling the dream of "you too can be a rockstar overnight!!". That's what it's all about these days, and folks think they can do it here by buying an mpc2000 and an ASR10, not knowin a damn thing about a mixer or effect, or processing or sample truncation, aliasing, filtering, sample rate conversions, dithering, summing, seperation, isolation, pre-amping or anything besides maybe "oh...uh just slap a compressor on it!!". And it's gonna make them make crap, straight up crap. They'll try to do a half-ass demo, then get a crap contract that screws them royally without them realizing it, and everybody who learned how to really do the stuff will engineer their albums, produce it, etc.. They won't make the amount so the advance is all recoupable and they're in debt for life. The story of 95% of all signed rockstars in any genre. And that's giving the VERY big IF they make it even that far. THAT's the facts. Learn the stuff to do it yourself...and it puts you in a different place in that equation.


*shrugs

Ape
 
I will read the article.

However, I am conviced that the music industry is about business and NOT about music.

Somewhere along we lost the notion of what music is and were it came from.

A recent trip to africa, refreshed me on this concept. There was music every were. Kids, adults, elderly. Music was a language of universal understanding to the listener. Instantly you received the power and the vibration of the drums.

It was not about studing and reading books on how to transmit your soul through ur music. Just beat the drum and listen to what the drum next to you is "saying". Something most western people cant understand. Listen and play. That is were jazz started, all the scale bull**** came much much later. People used to play what they heard in there heads without knowing which mode, scale or tone they were in.

Everybody has the right to enjoy music, not just intelectuals that dare to judge "garbage or good music" based on performance skills.

We need to play more, listen more, and talk less.

Make music, with ur pen, folk, pc, guitar, bass, horn etc. Anything, just enjoy your self.

The only garbage music is ... wait a minute, there isnt any garbage music. Music is music, is music.

lol. never thought a conversation on drum machines would give so much to write about.
 
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