Cassette 4-Track Drum Effects?

[spaddict]

i have a tascam portastudio 414 mkII thats been sitting and collecting dust. i want to sprinkle some of that dust onto my drums and get them to sound dirtier but without taking away from the "knock."

what i've been doing so far is playing my drum sequence from my mpc 2000xl at max output and recording it into the 4 track onto track 1 input set to line/mic. I'm thinking Id probably set the gain with all the drums sounds playing to get the levels, and then "solo" all the sounds and record them individually all at that same level I set with all the sounds playing. then, record them into my DAW.

the problem im having is i dont know what levels to set to get the drums sounding dirtier with more "tape saturation" and a little more "knock." i dont want to lose too much from the low end from the kick or the snap from the snare. what levels should i set volume wise when im recording into the 4 track and then recording out of that into my DAW?? Both setting levels on track 1 as well as the master fader.

Also, does it make a difference to track out with the RCA line out vs. the headphone output?

On my interface should I set the input to "instrument" to get more of the "tone" or leave it set to "line"?

ive been experimenting with it for days, but im curious if anyone else has experience they can share. i really want to be able to use it to its full potential. (and yes, i have read the manual, lol)

all suggestions are much appreciated!

 

[D'amazin]

Here's a little tip of they did in the 90's or what i do when i record using the Roland VS 1680 multitrack recorder. Record your drums RED hot into your cassete deck, 4-track or whatever. Then the recorded drums back into the DAW with lower levels and eq-ed if you prefer. You can even put a compressor in between so the analog sound is kept before it hits the digital circuitry. It will sound even louder and thicker with a compressor.

 

[rhythmgj]

Hi spaddict,

Assuming that you want stereo drums, you'll need to use two tracks, such as input to channels 1 _and_ 2, rather than just 2. Pan 1 all the way left, and 2 all the way right. But, you could also go mono, or, better yet in my opinion, combine the tracks in mono on channel 1 (as you were doing), then bring that track back into the computer and mix it in with your original stereo drum tracks (a bit of "parallel processing"). As far as volume levels, it depends on so many factors, all we can say is that you have to experiment until you get the sound that you are looking for. I would avoid over-driving or giving the drums too much distortion.

You're definitely going to want to output from the 4-track using the RCA outputs rather than the headphone out, and you want to input with "line" selected. As D'amazin mentioned, experimenting with compression would be a good idea (although you will get some by default, just from using the 4-track). Don't overdo it though...

Cool idea. Interestingly, Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones used to use the same trick (cassette deck processing) to get fatter guitar and drum sounds. One thing to be aware of; when you bring the cassette tracks back into your DAW, you may experience some timing issues that you'll have to deal with... Analog recording gear by its very nature does not have the consistency of digital, so you'll probably have to slip things around to line them up and make the digital and analog tracks work together, or do some editing of the newly digitized analog tracks (make sense?)...

Hope that helps.

GJ

 

[laurend]

Also, does it make a difference to track out with the RCA line out vs. the headphone output?

This may add dirt

On my interface should I set the input to "instrument" to get more of the "tone" or leave it set to "line"?

The line input has a correct impedance. Using the instrument input (Hi Z) may only change the gain.

ive been experimenting with it for days, but im curious if anyone else has experience they can share. i really want to be able to use it to its full potential. (and yes, i have read the manual,

all suggestions are much appreciated!

Using a "bit cruncher" is a much more effective solution to add dirt.

 

[chris carter]

I grew up with a 'high end' cassette four-track. I honestly don't think there is any dirt in those that is worth having. If you really want it, go get the Tonebooster Reelbus plugin. It will give you that same sound, but you can tweak it to make it usable. And it will give you a thousand other tape sounds as well. All without the nightmare of actually running everything through the 4-track.

You will not get any extra "knock" from a cassette. Also, assuming you are doing entire tracks, you are going to have major sync problems. Those machines never play at exactly the same speed twice.

 

[krushing]

I'd still go for it, for the sake of experimentation if nothing else. You can always blend it with the original signal later (although that sync may indeed be an issue).

Btw, the Keith Richards thing is most famously heard on the intro of Street Fighting Man. It's bright, thin and warbly - works great for that situation, but I wouldn't call it "fat"

 

[rhythmgj]

>>>>Btw, the Keith Richards thing is most famously heard on the intro of Street Fighting Man. It's bright, thin and warbly - works great for that situation, but I wouldn't call it "fat" <<<<


Neither would I, but Keith apparently thought so. In general though, analog electronics and tape saturation do create what most folks consider a "fatter" sound. But that usually involves tape with a much wider width than cassette, and usually at speeds on or exceeding 15 ips (> 30 ips); most cassette machines run at 1 & 7/8 ips, and the tape is only 1/8", so there's your "thin and warbly." But he loved it...

GJ

 

[krushing]

>>>>Btw, the Keith Richards thing is most famously heard on the intro of Street Fighting Man. It's bright, thin and warbly - works great for that situation, but I wouldn't call it "fat" <<<<


Neither would I, but Keith apparently thought so. In general though, analog electronics and tape saturation do create what most folks consider a "fatter" sound. But that usually involves tape with a much wider width than cassette, and usually at speeds on or exceeding 15 ips (> 30 ips); most cassette machines run at 1 & 7/8 ips, and the tape is only 1/8", so there's your "thin and warbly." But he loved it...

GJ

Yep, but that's exactly the point - generalizing the attributes of studio-grade tape machines to mean all kinds of "tape" is...not right The fact that it worked for this particular case & sound doesn't really change anything, even if someone called it "fat".

 

[rhythmgj]

Yup. But. Etc. ("Lather, Rinse, Repeat")...

A great sticky/FAQ topic for FP might be what we could call the " 'It Depends' Files."

GJ

 

[AudioPhorm]

yeah, do it up man. let us know how it turns out.

 

[Keep Movin]

bro record them to tape at the loudest level without distortion then bounce them back in without clipping, but send me some of those samples you cooked up already, keepmovin25@gmail.com this should sound good going through my tube amp, a.s.a.p bro send em

 

[spaddict]

getting the levels right is the tricky part.

when i a/b the unprocessed mpc sound vs the tape from the four track i definitely prefer the tape. it messes up the dynamics a bit and takes away from the punch of the drums. im not sure if thats an error on my part. gain staging is definitely the biggest factor i think when it comes to recording onto the cassette 4 track.

i downloaded the tb reelbus plug in, but havent a/b'd it yet with the raw 4 track recordings i tracked into my daw.

i know its all experimentation, but ive put in a lot of hours and just hoped that maybe someone could offer better insight or expertise by posting here. ill keep messing around with it.

does anyone have any other "tape" vsts, other than reelbus, that can mimick the tascam postastudio sound - kind of...? the processing to tape takes a long ass time and a lot of passes to make sure everything sounds as good as it can... i just think maybe i can just bypass that if i can get a "realistic" vst to just drop on the tracks or master bus to make it sounds like what it is im trying to achieve.

 

[rhythmgj]

There are a lot of simulations out there, but nothing will sound exactly like tape except-- tape.
Analog distortion and tape saturation have a pleasing "smoothing" effect, hence your "compressed dynamics and less-punchy but still better" drum sound. The time it takes to make things sound right is part of the process. Do you want home-made spaghetti sauce, or frozen microwave style?

One other thing you could try is passing the signal _through_ the tape machine electronics (without actually recording to tape). You might like that. You will get some of the benefits of adding analog electronics, but lose some of the benefits and detriments of adding tape.

Does your Tascam have VU meters or just LEDs? Your gain-staging issues might be exacerbated if you're not familiar with using VU meters. In short, if you don't hear audible, terrible distortion, it's ok if the meters "peak" a little, just don't let them "peg" (slam and stay all the way to the right). Tape recording deals with distortion, but not clipping; that's a digital thing.

GJ

 

[AudioPhorm]

The time it takes to make things sound right is part of the process. Do you want home-made spaghetti sauce, or frozen microwave style?
GJ

lol pretty much. if you like frozen microwave style, Slate Digital Virtual Tape Machines is worth a shot. (pretty fuckin expensive microwave spaghetti though) but I heard that it's "around"...