ebisproductions
New member
Digital will catch up with Analogue...Someday
Analog outboard gear vs. high-end plugins
- Thread starter Departure
- Start date
it is not a matter of "catching up"... they are different from eachother...
it is like saying "sculpture will catch up with painting someday"...
or "blue will catch up with red someday"...
FACT: Emulations NEVER sound exactly like the original (regardless of whether it is analog or digital)...
A plugin copy of an analog synth will not sound exactly like the original synth. For example, the Pro-53 does not sound exactly like a Prophet 5.
AND!
A hardware ANALOG copy of an analog synth will not sound exactly like the original synth. For example, a Studio Electronics SE-1 does not sound like a MiniMoog...
AND!
A plugin copy of a hardware DIGITAL synth will not sound exactly like the original synth. For example, the FM7 plugin does not sound exactly like a DX7.
AND!
Even Moog's own Voyager does not sound like a MiniMoog... and Dave Smith's Prophet 08 does not sound like a Prophet 5...
BUT!
There are plugins that sound arguably better than analog gear... compressors that are faster, EQ's that are more precise with more bands and filter types, reverbs with more realistic room models, delays with crazier abilities, synths that are fatter, synths with more elaborate envelopes, synths with wider frequency ranges, synths with more modulatable parameters, synths with more voices, etc, etc than any piece of analog gear.
In my opinion, anybody who says analog is better than digital or digital is better than analog, does not have much experience with either of them.
krushing
Moderator
Well put. The problem in all these software vs hardware discussions is almost always excessive generalization - you can't attach very specific attributes to "analog hardware" or "plugins"...which only goes to show that a lot of the discussion is based on what people expect those things to be, not knowledge or experience.
moses
hardliner
Well, do not forget that it's quite hard to learn anything right between all the massive marketing brainwash in the audio field. I mean, just google for audio topics, all you'll see on the first 5 pages is more or less advertisement. Lol, I'm not even mentioning music "magazines".
It's hard to find any reliable source of information about music production. From my experience, there is no way around an IEEE or AES membership (or both) to get access to real scientific wisdom. It's shocking how few actually know how an AD/DA convertor works, how an EQ is built, how an amplifier is implemented or how audio data is stored digitaly.
Even seasoned engineers don't grasp the digital world. I'm not really sure why. I read an old interview with Rupert Neve a few days ago where he obviously totally misunderstood the Nyquist theorem. Yes, even he was wrong and told bullsh!t to the readers (well, it helped to argue in favor of his products, what a coincidence). You need to double-check every claim.
No field I know about has such low scientific standards as audio-"engineering" (for example electronics and informatics are much better "documented" from the scientific point of view). So, even if you're highly motivated, it takes years...
It's hard to find any reliable source of information about music production. From my experience, there is no way around an IEEE or AES membership (or both) to get access to real scientific wisdom. It's shocking how few actually know how an AD/DA convertor works, how an EQ is built, how an amplifier is implemented or how audio data is stored digitaly.
Even seasoned engineers don't grasp the digital world. I'm not really sure why. I read an old interview with Rupert Neve a few days ago where he obviously totally misunderstood the Nyquist theorem. Yes, even he was wrong and told bullsh!t to the readers (well, it helped to argue in favor of his products, what a coincidence). You need to double-check every claim.
No field I know about has such low scientific standards as audio-"engineering" (for example electronics and informatics are much better "documented" from the scientific point of view). So, even if you're highly motivated, it takes years...
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H
HIMbeats
Guest
^^^^^Great comments by both dvyce and moses.
As an audio engineer I would have to regretfully agree with Moses' observation. Few of us have more than a working understanding of audio from a scientific stand point. When I went to school very little of this was covered, so I can only imagine that almost 10 years later it is any better now. This is why continuous self study is so important in this field. I think everyone should do a build and learn more about how a lot of these things work. Building your own tube pre or a compressor is not as hard as you may think and you will have a better understanding how they work. Even grabbing a plugin builder like Synth Edit or something like that and start using it to begin to understand the inter workings of the audio effects you use everyday would be of great benefit.
The big push for folks wanting the analog sound is nothing more than manufacturers banking off buzzwords like "warm" and "smooth" and telling you that you need this for your productions. So we, much like blind audio zombies say,"yes, I do need that sound. Let me buy this new plugin from XWY company." The buzz for saturation plugins won't be stopping anytime soon, because they make the companies money.
As an audio engineer I would have to regretfully agree with Moses' observation. Few of us have more than a working understanding of audio from a scientific stand point. When I went to school very little of this was covered, so I can only imagine that almost 10 years later it is any better now. This is why continuous self study is so important in this field. I think everyone should do a build and learn more about how a lot of these things work. Building your own tube pre or a compressor is not as hard as you may think and you will have a better understanding how they work. Even grabbing a plugin builder like Synth Edit or something like that and start using it to begin to understand the inter workings of the audio effects you use everyday would be of great benefit.
The big push for folks wanting the analog sound is nothing more than manufacturers banking off buzzwords like "warm" and "smooth" and telling you that you need this for your productions. So we, much like blind audio zombies say,"yes, I do need that sound. Let me buy this new plugin from XWY company." The buzz for saturation plugins won't be stopping anytime soon, because they make the companies money.
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illacov
New member
I think digital has a way to go as far as reactivity goes when it comes to EQs, Compressors, Tape Simulations and the whole summing buss simulation buzz that we see going on at the moment.
I'll venture that its that last 10% of reactivity/action/mojo that's definitely missing from these plugins. Now while some people might say that only a professional should nitpick this concept, let's put that into perspective. You're missing that last 10% of mojo/goodness from the channel itself, the EQ, the compressor, the tape sim and the mix buss. That's a whole bunch of "lackness," going on there.
There are definitely engineers who do great things with digital and analog alike. However, I won't be general at all. They are still rather far apart at the end of the day. I keep a host of analog gear in my studio because I either can't get the results I want with the plugins I have (despite years of using them) or the gear I have is NOT modeled by a plugin at the moment. In either regard its alot easier to fire up the Distressor and get your results, all 100% of them than to fiddle and hope or try to rationalize.
I'd also venture there's quite a bit of cool stuff out there for under $600.
You can buy a used dbx 160x, a used 2 channel Valley People Dyna-mite, a Sebatron Tube preamp, a used DIY SSL Compressor, a used DIY 1176, a used Speck EQ, an old Lexicon reverb, an old Yamaha reverb. The list goes on.
Just keep your eyes peeled and you will find tons of AWESOME used gear.
Your biggest investment for vocals is going to be a good preamp, a great microphone and a hardware compressor. Converters come last IMHO. You can record a U87 into a Great River to dbx 160x to a $100 sound card and its going to sound good, dare I say great if you know what you're doing.
Your biggest investment for drums is going to be a stereo DI with a good transformer coupled preamp and a hardware compressor. You can't go wrong with a Whirlwind or a Radial DI, a modded GAP73 and a dbx 160x.
Peace
Illumination
I'll venture that its that last 10% of reactivity/action/mojo that's definitely missing from these plugins. Now while some people might say that only a professional should nitpick this concept, let's put that into perspective. You're missing that last 10% of mojo/goodness from the channel itself, the EQ, the compressor, the tape sim and the mix buss. That's a whole bunch of "lackness," going on there.
There are definitely engineers who do great things with digital and analog alike. However, I won't be general at all. They are still rather far apart at the end of the day. I keep a host of analog gear in my studio because I either can't get the results I want with the plugins I have (despite years of using them) or the gear I have is NOT modeled by a plugin at the moment. In either regard its alot easier to fire up the Distressor and get your results, all 100% of them than to fiddle and hope or try to rationalize.
I'd also venture there's quite a bit of cool stuff out there for under $600.
You can buy a used dbx 160x, a used 2 channel Valley People Dyna-mite, a Sebatron Tube preamp, a used DIY SSL Compressor, a used DIY 1176, a used Speck EQ, an old Lexicon reverb, an old Yamaha reverb. The list goes on.
Just keep your eyes peeled and you will find tons of AWESOME used gear.
Your biggest investment for vocals is going to be a good preamp, a great microphone and a hardware compressor. Converters come last IMHO. You can record a U87 into a Great River to dbx 160x to a $100 sound card and its going to sound good, dare I say great if you know what you're doing.
Your biggest investment for drums is going to be a stereo DI with a good transformer coupled preamp and a hardware compressor. You can't go wrong with a Whirlwind or a Radial DI, a modded GAP73 and a dbx 160x.
Peace
Illumination
"reactivity"?
"summing buss simulation"?
I would say the converters are the absolute most important thing in your chain... (then comes the pre, and after that the mic... although those two are pretty equal in importance.)
and that anything you record into your $100 sound card will most likely sound like crap...
how are you plugging a drum into a DI?
Bryst
New member
Respectfully disagree. They are different, but they are in place to do EXACTLY THE SAME JOB. So you can't really say they are completely different. Analogue/outboard was around first. Naturally people try to match the sound it makes with their digital/ITB processors.
Digital tech has limitless possibilities. If consumers want it to sound EXACTLY like analogue, and they are willing to pay for it, scientists and engineers will make it sound EXACTLY like analogue. Is it going to take time/new technology? Probably.
If there's not a strong demand for ITB processors that sound like high quality analogue (unlikely), then maybe it'll never happen.
It's not a matter of if it can or can't happen though.
But yeah, people shouldn't really worry about it I don't think. If you like the sound of your outboard stuff then sweet use it! Like ITB stuff better? Then use that! No worries. I bet 99% of listeners could never tell a difference... I'm sure I can't most of the time (some people may have more trained/experienced ears than I do of course
)
SafeandSound
Mastering Engineer
"reactivity" I think could be replaced with "ambiguity". Analogue has an ambiguity that digital does not
normally have.
normally have.
I don't know what that is supposed to mean, either.
Not only can I not figure out how "ambiguity" would relate to "reactivity"... But I can't imagine how "ambiguity" relates to this topic at all.
RighteousRob
Digging till its done.
I think you might be right. Personally, I think NOTHING can compare to the warm phat sound of a good analog synth. My buddy has a Juno-6 and I have been obsessing over buying one since I first got to play around on his.
Needless to say, they just don't make that sound anymore! It can't be replicated digitally, it just cannot. There's something to be said about being able to physically touch and manipulate your analog equipment.
fataltone
Holy Lamb Media & Ent.
MIDI controllers and MIDI learn are great tools
to tweak sounds to your hearts delight
-Coach Antonio