Hey guys, just a quick question on techniques to fatten my orchrestral stuff!

P

ProDeus

Guest
i've been playing with brass driven melodies for a while, and i notice that mine are alot thinner and nowhere near as full as the pro guys (lex luger, drumma boy etc), how do i fill these sounds out?
i use kontakt and put my horns on chord mode etc, but they still dont have that full feel
would people like that be sampling them or just filling them out with other orchestral elements eq'd down to emulate a real orchestra?
i have komplete 7 and miroslav philharmonik if that helps
sorry if my question sounds stupid!
 
Not a stupid question at all - it is the essence of composition, orchestration and arranging that you are asking about.

Voicing brass in pop music of any sort usually comes back to two techniques:
  1. fatback horns
    • trumpet 1 octave up
    • trumpet 2 at pitch
    • tenor sax at pitch
    • trombone at pitch
  2. chordal horns
    • Trumpet 1 2nd or 3rd above
    • Trumpet at pitch
    • Tenor sax 3rd or 4th below
    • Trombone 6th or 7th or octave below
Example
Initial Melody

fpHnEx-01.png


[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/audio/fpHnEx-01.mp3[/MP3]

Fatback horns example

fpHnEx-02.png


[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/audio/fpHnEx-02.mp3[/MP3]

Chordal horns example

fpHnEx-03.png


[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/audio/fpHnEx-03.mp3[/MP3]
 
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first of you dont want that brass that lex luger has(well that thousands have)...its a old cheap sounding brass soundfont that starts with a z...YOU DONT WANT THAT EVER...but drumma boy's brass..yea you want that..thats st8 off hardware
 
An additional thought, add some delay to each line in your horn section ~ about 30-50ms with very little feedback/repeat just to thicken each line up.

You might also consider some M/S processing (Mid/Side) to add some depth to the stereo placement of each horn.
 
Alotta experimenting

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

Alotta experimenting. Position n placement of instruments is so important. Work on mixing
 
Hey Bandcoach i'm having a little trouble understanding exactly how to do these techniques with my brass...

So for the fatback approach you pitch one trumpet an octave up and then have another trumpet, tenor sax, and trombone in the particular pitch you want?

Then for the chordal, i'm not sure what a 3rd below, or a 4th below is? is that three (four) steps down in the key? Im going to look it up but any ways thanks a lot. i have been having trouble getting my brass thick and realistic.

Thanks. Peace.

Just did a little research (i guess thats what you can call it) and are you talking about lowering your brass a fourth on the circle of fifths, (or fourths)?
 
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just get if you can the low notes to be around c1 or lower if possible and with eq make sure its heavy from the 30 htz range up to about 250
 
Dankgreentreez said:
Hey Bandcoach i'm having a little trouble understanding exactly how to do these techniques with my brass...

So for the fatback approach you pitch one trumpet an octave up and then have another trumpet, tenor sax, and trombone in the particular pitch you want?
Click to expand...
Exactly. This provides a fat sound that is hard to miss. Add a little delay to each instrument to provide that double-tracking effect - 30-50ms should be enough with no repeating - it is sidechain effect rather than an inline effect for each channel.

Then for the chordal, i'm not sure what a 3rd below, or a 4th below is? is that three (four) steps down in the key?
Click to expand...

2nd above means go up 1 or two keys on your keyboard depending on which note is in your current key.

3rd above/below means go up/down 3 or 4 keys on your keyboard depending on which note is in your current key.

4th below means go down 5 or 6 keys on your keyboard depending on which note is in your current key.

6th below means go down 8 or 9 keys on your keyboard depending on which note is in your current key.

7th below means go down 10 or 11 keys on your keyboard depending on which note is in your current key.

8ve below means go down 12 keys on your keyboard depending on which note is in your current key.

Im going to look it up but any ways thanks a lot. i have been having trouble getting my brass thick and realistic.

Thanks. Peace.
Click to expand...
Just did a little research (i guess thats what you can call it) and are you talking about lowering your brass a fourth on the circle of fifths, (or fourths)?
Click to expand...

No, see above.

To put it into the context of the original examples I gave, consider the following note sequences for each instruments:


T1: C-C B-A-B A-B-C | D-D C-B-C B-C-D | C-B G G-B | C-E ||
T2: A-A G-F-G F-G-A | B-B A-G-A G-A-B | A-G E E-G | A-C ||
TS: E-E D-C-D C-D-E | F-F E-D-E D-E-F | E-D B B-D | E-G ||
Tb: A-A G-F-G F-G-A | B-B A-G-A G-A-B | A-G E E-G | A-C ||


T2 is a 3rd below T1 the whole way through
TS is a 6th below T1 the whole way through
Tb is an 8ve below T2 the whole way through

Check out the tutorials in my sig to understand more about intervals and notes in general: specifically KSC: Intervals and BT: Notes
 
Um those guys eq the top to sizzle and and usually cut the lows unless the horns are the leads and melodies if ,your track is all horns you'll still wanna cut the bottom around 200-250 to allow space for the style of oils n subs used .do an RME frequency analysys on three to five beats from these guys. You'll see all the energy in the track centered in the 20-200 range and steep rolloffs in the top an while u at it look at the beats waveforms and notice the loudest single thing n the tracks is the kik .the bass doesn't look loud snuff to even be heard but ur ur ears and a freq anal will show u the bass is boomin.
 
This is all true, however the question originally asked and answered was one of orchestrational skill, not mixing skill.

It would be pointless to master the mixing side of things if the orchestrational stuff is not happening.

Once the the instruments a producing the musical sounds required then getting the sound design right with eq and and such becomes a whole lot easier.

So if we were to eq - we are probably looking at boosting 4kHz about 3db and applying a shelfing cut at about 110Hz (a bass trombone can go down to 60Hz), but we shouldn't lose too much definition on those notes. Try to keep the rest of the eq flat if at all possible.
 
Wow some of you really complicate things. If you have to eq to get the sound you want it's too late. The first couple of guys were right, you have to layer to get the sound you're looking for. I'll usually use a horn patch playing high then bring in another one playing an octave lower then throw some bass under that. If I need it a little thicker I'll tuck some strings underneath.
 
njm255 said:
Wow some of you really complicate things. If you have to eq to get the sound you want it's too late.
Click to expand...

Agreed - as I said just before your post this is about orchestration aka layering. I then addressed the issues of eqing to highlight where you would attack to put some air into the sound as well as provide definition over an already full bottom end.

The first couple of guys were right, you have to layer to get the sound you're looking for. I'll usually use a horn patch playing high then bring in another one playing an octave lower then throw some bass under that. If I need it a little thicker I'll tuck some strings underneath.
Click to expand...

Adding strings underneath will thicken but it will also deaden the attack of the brass. This can be compensated for by using a short duration note for the strings to emphasise the attack of the brass (play the attack but no sustain) or vice versa (the brass play the attack but do not sustain).
 
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ProDeus said:
i've been playing with brass driven melodies for a while, and i notice that mine are alot thinner and nowhere near as full as the pro guys (lex luger, drumma boy etc), how do i fill these sounds out?
i use kontakt and put my horns on chord mode etc, but they still dont have that full feel
would people like that be sampling them or just filling them out with other orchestral elements eq'd down to emulate a real orchestra?
i have komplete 7 and miroslav philharmonik if that helps
sorry if my question sounds stupid!
Click to expand...

sorry mate, completely off topic, im watching Native Instruments Komplete 7 Elements Software Bundle on ebay. is this the same as you have? is it good and worth 60 squid? anyone else have input? cheers
 
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