Have I been harmonizing the Minor Key wrong? The appeal of the V chord.

[crimsonhawk47]

I just realized that the V chord sounds really good over a minor melody, even though it's out of the natural minor key. I realized I have been making harmonies using the natural minor and not the harmonic minor key. So my question is...

1) Is it better to harmonize with the harmonic minor key? (which is probably a dumb question)
2) Why does the harmonic minor key sound good as a harmony when it's technically out of key of the natural minor? Is it because it resolves dissonance?

Oh, and why does the augmented third sound so dreadful compared to the major v

 

[crimsonhawk47]

One more question: can the natural and harmonic minor be interchangeable in a harmony?

I made a harmony before I posted any of this that went i-III-VI-Then interrupts for a P5-VI-V With flattened 3rd-V

So, as you can see, I use a major V here (which, at first, I did cause it sounded splendid, and I later read that it often does with the natural minor because it's the harmonic minor). But I did not use the diminshed 7th. Rather, I used the major 7th without the with G flat instead of G. So, the harmony was actually in natural minor until the last chord.

Why did this work out? Is there a specific rule or did I get lucky? Here is the tune.

View attachment Piano.mp3

 

[thunderkyss]

The harmonic minor, melodic minor, & natrual minor are often used interchangeably. Usually when ascending the scale the harmonic minor is used to strengthen the leading character of the raised 7th degree. When descending, moving away from the root, the b7 of the natural minor is often used.

 

[crimsonhawk47]

Now by ascending, I have to ask, how are you sure if it's ascending when the chords are inverted? Is it from the bass note or does it not matter, V to vi inverted is still ascending?

 

[bandcoach]

I just realized that the V chord sounds really good over a minor melody, even though it's out of the natural minor key. I realized I have been making harmonies using the natural minor and not the harmonic minor key. So my question is...

1) Is it better to harmonize with the harmonic minor key? (which is probably a dumb question)

No such thing as a dumb question just an unasked one

The harmonic minor is used to provide the certainty of a perfect cadence; V-i

However, the use of the harmonic minor is neither prescribed nor proscribed for a melody in the minor; use what feels right or you know is right

2) Why does the harmonic minor key sound good as a harmony when it's technically out of key of the natural minor? Is it because it resolves dissonance?

Here is the thing: it is not out of key; it is the scale used to harmonise in the minor

Oh, and why does the augmented third sound so dreadful compared to the major v

The use of bIII(#5) needs careful preparation and delicate execution - it is always more preferable to omit the 5th (the sharp 7 of the harmonic minor scale) if you cannot get it to work or to use the natural minor version of the

One more question: can the natural and harmonic minor be interchangeable in a harmony?

I made a harmony before I posted any of this that went i-III-VI-Then interrupts for a P5-VI-V With flattened 3rd-V

I think you may mean i-bIII-bVI-P5-bVI-v-V (i.e. in A minor this would render as Am-C(#5)-F-P5-F-Em-E

If it were i-III-VI-P5-VI-v-V, it would render as Am-C#-F#-P5-F#-Em-E

what do you mean by P5, by the way (never seen it in this context in 37+ years of reading/writing/studying/teaching)?

So, as you can see, I use a major V here (which, at first, I did cause it sounded splendid, and I later read that it often does with the natural minor because it's the harmonic minor). But I did not use the diminshed 7th. Rather, I used the major 7th without the with G flat instead of G. So, the harmony was actually in natural minor until the last chord.

ah, now you kind of make it clearer

do you mean it was i-bIII-bVI-bVII-bVI-v-V (e.g. Am-C-F-G-F-Em-E) ?

Why did this work out? Is there a specific rule or did I get lucky? Here is the tune.

View attachment 41035

you have simply mixed and matched the various parallel minors to create direction and conclusion

The harmonic minor, melodic minor, & natrual minor are often used interchangeably. Usually when ascending the scale the harmonic minor is used to strengthen the leading character of the raised 7th degree. When descending, moving away from the root, the b7 of the natural minor is often used.

this is melodically speaking rather than harmonically speaking

there are 2 rules for creating melodies in the minor telling you when to raise the 6th and 7th and when to keep the natural minor versions of those tones

1) if the note after is above then the 6th or 7th must be raised
2) if the note after is below then the 6th or 7th should remain as it is found in the natural minor

 

[crimsonhawk47]

The use of bIII(#5) needs careful preparation and delicate execution -

What needs to be done?

I think you may mean i-bIII-bVI-P5-bVI-v-V (i.e. in A minor this would render as Am-C(#5)-F-P5-F-Em-E

I have never actually seen it written like that before. I thought the intervals already implied a scale. As in III, you would count down the scale (in a minor, A, B, C) Then take the major of that.

what do you mean by P5, by the way (never seen it in this context in 37+ years of reading/writing/studying/teaching)?

P5 was taught to be as perfect fifth. I wasn't sure what to put there because I don't actually have a chord their. Just two octaves of a perfect fifth between F# and C#

ah, now you kind of make it clearer

do you mean it was i-bIII-bVI-bVII-bVI-v-V (e.g. Am-C-F-G-F-Em-E) ?

G# Minor-BbMajor-E Major-Perfect fifth F# to C#-E Major-Eb Major with raised 3rd-Eb Major

this is melodically speaking rather than harmonically speaking

there are 2 rules for creating melodies in the minor telling you when to raise the 6th and 7th and when to keep the natural minor versions of those tones

1) if the note after is above then the 6th or 7th must be raised
2) if the note after is below then the 6th or 7th should remain as it is found in the natural minor

If this is melodically speaking, then harmonically speaking, is it as simple as the V wants to resolve to a I in the minor? More so than the v?

 

[bandcoach]

The use of bIII(#5) needs careful preparation and delicate execution -

What needs to be done?

I'll have to spend some time writing a decent response for this - have already spent an hour on another answer (another thread) that was much less complicated so maybe tomorrow

I think you may mean i-bIII-bVI-P5-bVI-v-V (i.e. in A minor this would render as Am-C(#5)-F-P5-F-Em-E

I have never actually seen it written like that before. I thought the intervals already implied a scale. As in III, you would count down the scale (in a minor, A, B, C) Then take the major of that.

When we use the numbers and Roman numerals to identify scale tones it is common practice (derived from the wide field of jazz analysis amongst others) to use b's or #'s in front of them to show how the scale tones and chord roots are altered from their position in the major scale; this is in contrast to older texts, such as those written by Piston, where all scale tones were presented as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 and the reader was left to fathom out what the actual tone was in the currently active scale - many a student has fallen victim to thinking they were in the major when they were, in fact, in the minor and made disastrous errors of completion in exercises as a result

what do you mean by P5, by the way (never seen it in this context in 37+ years of reading/writing/studying/teaching)?

P5 was taught to be as perfect fifth. I wasn't sure what to put there because I don't actually have a chord their. Just two octaves of a perfect fifth between F# and C#

Ok, so you would render that as F[sup]#5[/sup] or F[sup]#No3rd[/sup] - the absence of the root in your notation above made it difficult to understand what you intended - I'll give you the Roman numerals in the next bit

ah, now you kind of make it clearer

do you mean it was i-bIII-bVI-bVII-bVI-v-V (e.g. Am-C-F-G-F-Em-E) ?

G# Minor-BbMajor-E Major-Perfect fifth F# to C#-E Major-Eb Major with raised 3rd-Eb Major

this is inconsistent - you are either in G# minor or Ab minor but not both 9technically you are but the way you name successive notes and chords needs to be consistent with either 4#'s or 7 b's

so either render as
G#m-A#-E-F#5-E-D#mr-D#

(what you have written above is confusing me slightly and suggesting that you might mean
G#m-A#-E-F#5-E-D#sus4-D# - the sus4 is the major 3rd raised to the 4th, but you orignally wrote with a flatted 3rd)

Abm-Bb-Fb-Gb5-Fb-Ebm-Eb

As Roman numerals this renders as

i-bIII-bVI-bVII5-bVI-v-V

regardless of key signature

which is exactly what I was able to piece together from you wrote before

this is melodically speaking rather than harmonically speaking

there are 2 rules for creating melodies in the minor telling you when to raise the 6th and 7th and when to keep the natural minor versions of those tones

1) if the note after is above then the 6th or 7th must be raised
2) if the note after is below then the 6th or 7th should remain as it is found in the natural minor

If this is melodically speaking, then harmonically speaking, is it as simple as the V wants to resolve to a I in the minor? More so than the v?

V-i is far more powerful than v-i as the push tone, G# is present in V but not v

V	i		v	i
D	E		D	E
B	C		B	C
G#	A		G	A
E	A		E	A

 

[Pumpthrust]

I had this same issue two years ago (I think) and BC sorted me out. Good question, crimsonhawk.

 

[bandcoach]

here are a few more posts/threads that may shed more or less light on the subject

https://www.futureproducers.com/for...there-minor-progressions-447381/#post49649268

https://www.futureproducers.com/for...ionale-behind-using-v7-chord-mnor-key-390252/ - the thread that pumpthrust mentions (Jan 2 2012)

on the use of the augmented chord I have a few things to do and some more sleeping to do (my body clock is so out of whack at the moment) - so it may be this evening my time before I get to produce the material

 

[Teksaur]

Huh? U lost me on v chord. Sry i'm dumb

 

[crimsonhawk47]

Ehh, I'm probably not going to use the augmented third anyway.

More importantly, I was looking at Elton Johns "Sorry seems to be the hardest word." A tutorial on it that is

So the progression is supposed to be in G minor, going Gm--Cm7--F--Bb-Am5-7--D7

Now the thing that throws me off is yes, that's a major fifth resolving to the tonic chord, but he's not actually playing it like it's written. In all honesty I don't know what Am5-7 is supposed to mean, but he's playing the two chords like this.

Am5-7 A+C+Eb
Passing note to D
D7 -C+D+G
Passing note to Gb

Now, I guess Am5-7 maybe another way of saying diminished Am, but the D7 makes no sense. Wouldn't it be D+Gb+A?

 

[bandcoach]

Ehh, I'm probably not going to use the augmented third anyway.

More importantly, I was looking at Elton Johns "Sorry seems to be the hardest word." A tutorial on it that is

So the progression is supposed to be in G minor, going Gm--Cm7--F--Bb-Am5-7--D7

some corrections were in order(I found the score for this and have fixed errors of interpretation, not transcription) - the use of the - indicates a quaver (8th note) duration

Gm-------Cm[sup]7[/sup]--------F--------B[sup]b[/sup]---Am[sup]7b5[/sup]--D[sup]7[/sup] ~ functional harmonic equivalent is ~ i-------iv[sup]7[/sup]-------[sup]b[/sup]VII------[sup]b[/sup]III---ii[sup]7b5[/sup]--V[sup]7[/sup]

Gm ~ G-B[sup]b[/sup]-D
Cm[sup]7[/sup] ~ C-E[sup]b[/sup]-G-B[sup]b[/sup]
F ~ F-A-C
B[sup]b[/sup] ~ B[sup]b[/sup]-D-F
Am[sup]7b5[/sup] ~ A-C-E[sup]b[/sup]-G
D7~ D-F[sup]#[/sup]-A-C

Now the thing that throws me off is yes, that's a major fifth resolving to the tonic chord, but he's not actually playing it like it's written. In all honesty I don't know what Am5-7 is supposed to mean, but he's playing the two chords like this.

Am5-7 A+C+Eb
Passing note to D
D7 -C+D+G
Passing note to Gb

Now, I guess Am5-7 maybe another way of saying diminished Am, but the D7 makes no sense. Wouldn't it be D+Gb+A?

Am[sup]7b5[/sup] is also called the half-diminished 7th (a full diminished 7th on A would be A-C-E[sup]b[/sup]-G[sup]b[/sup])

So what you describe for the D[sup]7[/sup] is actually D[sup]7sus4[/sup] - D-G-C and it would be F[sup]#[/sup] never G[sup]b[/sup] when the sus4 resolves to the 3rd - in larger chords omitting the 5th of the chord is normal - it is the least noticed note from the quality of the chord as it can be heard reinforced in the overtones/harmonics of the root quite readily (it is the 3d harmonic of the root)

What is played from the Am7b5 to the end as a top line is E[sup]b[/sup]-D-G-F[sup]#[/sup]
internal line is C---C---
bottom line in the right hand is G---A---
bass plays A---E[sup]b[/sup]-D-

i.e. the last 3 quavers the Am[sup]7b5[/sup] chord of which the last quaver is in 2nd inversion with the G on top and followed by the D[sup]7[/sup] with all 4 notes present D-A-C-F[sup]#[/sup]

you might want to read this tutorial on identifying and naming chords

Band Coach ~ Keys, Scales, Chords: Name that chord

and this one on building chords independent of the key signature in play

Bandcoach ~ Keys, Scales, Chords: A Key Independent Approach to Chord Building

 

[bandcoach]

Using the Augmented triad
The augmented triad only occurs naturally in the harmonic minor, built on scale tone [sup]b[/sup]3 as [sup]b[/sup]3-5-7, in A minor this would be C-E-G[sup]#[/sup]

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-01.mp3[/mp3]

This chord is rarely used as the mediant but, rather, as a substitute dominant chord, which is why in most instances it is used in 1st inversion, i.e. with scale tone 5 in the bass; in this usage the notes would be E-G[sup]#[/sup]-B[sup]#[/sup],

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-02.mp3[/mp3]

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-03.mp3[/mp3]

We can also use it in 2nd inversion where it becomes VII(#5), i.e. with scale tone 7 in the bass; in this usage the notes would be G[sup]#[/sup]-B[sup]#[/sup]-D[sup]x[/sup]

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-04.mp3[/mp3]

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-05.mp3[/mp3]

Sometimes it is also seen as the chord formed by moving down a semitone in the bass from the tonic minor chord to the bVII chord like so:

i	-	i[sub]/7[/sub]	-	[sup]b[/sup]VII
Am	-	Am[sub]/G[sup]#[/sup][/sub]	-	G

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-06.mp3[/mp3]

or even as

i	-	i[sub]/7[/sub]	-	i[sub]/b7[/sub]	-	i[sub]/6[/sub]	-	i[sub]/b6[/sub]
Am	-	Am[sub]/G[sup]#[/sup][/sub]	-	Am[sup]7[/sup][sub]/G[/sub]	-	Am[sub]/F[sup]#[/sup][/sub]	-	Am[sub]/F[/sub]

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-07.mp3[/mp3]

(think "Stairway to heaven" or "This Masquerade" or "Something")

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-10.mp3[/mp3]

if we remove the tonic A from the right hand in this progression (the top note) we get the following new functional and actual naming structures:

i	-	V[sup](#5)[/sup]	-	[sup]b[/sup]VII
Am	-	E[sup](#5)[/sup]	-	G

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-08.mp3[/mp3]

or even as

i	-	V[sup](#5)[/sup]	-	[sup]b[/sup]III[sub]/b7[/sub]	-	vi[su]7b5[/sup]	-	[sup]b[/sup]VI[sup]maj7[/sup]
Am	-	E[sup](#5)[/sup]	-	C[sub]/G[/sub]	-	F[sup]#[/sup]m[sup]7b5[/sup]	-	F[sup]maj7[/sup]

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/augTriadHarmMinor-09.mp3[/mp3]

notes on note names
B[sup]#[/sup] = C
D[sup]x[/sup] = E

 

[Pumpthrust]

Thank you, Bandcoach.