Question about 808s

N

n777l

New member
hi, got a question about mixing 808 kicks. I'm making a trapstep track and the 808 sounds fine without any kind of effects attached to it, I just dumped it into the track but I'm afraid im missing out on something. I've Heard that it's good to put a stereo enhancer on the 808 to widen it up for example? But shouldn't bass be mono? Why do people put stereo enhancers on kicks and sometimes even on bass.. I mean... bass should always be mono or am I wrong? Any other tip you would like to give me regarding mixing 808 kicks? Thanks alot.
 
Do you know why bass should be mono? or have you just accepted some piece of homebaked wisdom that says that bass should always be mono?

There are two reasons that bass has traditionally been mono
  1. frequencies under 80Hz are generally classified as omni-directional in nature
    • this is a misnomer as all sound waves are omni-directional in that they are broadcast with equal intensity in every direction (spherically) from the sound source
    • in a closed environment, with reflective walls, such that the sound approaches you, and is then reflected back at you with little loss of intensity, seeming to come form all directions
      • what is actually meant is that the wavelengths are too long for there to be significant information about which direction they are coming from when processed by the pair of ears on a human head
      • the distance between the two ear openings is shorter than the wavelengths and so there is no reliable way to say which direction such a sound comes from based on intra-aural differences, that is, differences in amplitudes arriving at each ear, the more directed the sound is
    • in an open environment, outdoors, with no large reflective surfaces folding the waves back around, you have the opportunity to identify general directions for low frequency sound - i.e. from in front, from behind, from the left, from the right from above, from below, as the sound approaches you and continues past you
  2. In the days of vinyl, to avoid large needle excursions (traveling side to side), a mix condition was imposed to have the bass panned in the center, effectively in mono. This avoided the needle being swung violently and possibly jumping out of the groove during playback.

The first reason is only true for sine waves - single frequency waveforms. Any complex sound has higher frequencies involved (2x, 3x, 4x, 5x etc of the fundamental frequency with individual amplitude envelopes and phase envelope relationships to the fundamental) that have wavelengths smaller than the inter-ear distance, so there is directional information in any non-sine/triangle low frequency sound

The second reason is not an issue unless you are mixing for vinyl for mastering
 
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bandcoach said:
Do you know why bass should be mono? or have you just accepted some piece of homebaked wisdom that says that bass should always be mono?

There are two reasons that bass has traditionally been mono
  1. frequencies under 80Hz are generally classified as omni-directional in nature
    • this is a misnomer as all sound waves are omni-directional in that they are broadcast with equal intensity in every direction (spherically) from the sound source
    • in a closed environment, with reflective walls, such that the sound approaches you, and is then reflected back at you with little loss of intensity, seeming to come form all directions
      • what is actually meant is that the wavelengths are too long for there to be significant information about which direction they are coming from when processed by the pair of ears on a human head
      • the distance between the two ear openings is shorter than the wavelengths and so there is no reliable way to say which direction such a sound comes from based on intra-aural differences, that is, differences in amplitudes arriving at each ear, the more directed the sound is
    • in an open environment, outdoors, with no large reflective surfaces folding the waves back around, you have the opportunity to identify general directions for low frequency sound - i.e. from in front, from behind, from the left, from the right from above, from below, as the sound approaches you and continues past you
  2. In the days of vinyl, to avoid large needle excursions (traveling side to side), a mix condition was imposed to have the bass panned in the center, effectively in mono. This avoided the needle being swung violently and possibly jumping out of the groove during playback.
The first reason is only true for sine waves - single frequency waveforms. Any complex sound has higher frequencies involved (2x, 3x, 4x, 5x etc of the fundamental frequency with individual amplitude envelopes and phase envelope relationships to the fundamental) that have wavelengths smaller than the inter-ear distance, so there is directional information in any non-sine/triangle low frequency sound

The second reason is not an issue unless you are mixing for vinyl for mastering
Click to expand...
Well then this was.... informative. Although it doesn't answer my question... why do some people put stereo enhancers on kick and bass? I mean... stereo enhancers widen stuff up...So ummm...Sometimes I can even hear on professional tracks that their bass is divided with a stereo enhancer... So im very confused... Can you or can you not do this?
 
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actually it does - it tells you that the statement bass should be in mono is myth or a practical accommodation of technical limitations in times past

if you can't infer from that that you can do whatever you want in terms of mixing, fx and panning then you still have some learning to do......
 
n777l said:
But shouldn't bass be mono? Why do people put stereo enhancers on kicks and sometimes even on bass.. I mean... bass should always be mono or am I wrong? Any other tip you would like to give me regarding mixing 808 kicks? Thanks alot.
Click to expand...
To make wideness/excitement. Listen to a lot of Timbalands production. He often uses a lot of widening on the kick. Many of his songs don´t have bass though (just pads which also is widened, panned or doubled.) Press the mono button while listening on a Timbaland beat (or import the track into your DAW and make it mono) and you can hear the beat literally dies right there. The wideness IS the beat so to speak.
AVICII for one uses some reverb on the bass a lot of times.
House intros even has bass with delays on them some times.

Just tossing a widener on a kick or bass will often take away some of the presence and attack of the sound. But there are smarter ways. One that is much used is to BUS or paralell-compress (send the track to a BUS), add effects like widener, compression, EQ etc, and then feed the signal back into the mix.


So, there are no rules, just what sounds good to your ears.
Having said that, if you have a lot of tracks, not everything can be widened, so do your picks. And use your ears. Those are your most important tools, above all plug-ins. :cool:
 
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I've Heard that stereo bass woun't translate to good in big club systems... True or false? Otherwise i'm also free to do whatever I wan't with the bass (no rules) ?
 
Basses are often layered. Not all bass tracks needs to be widened.
I have no experience from clubs but I guess the bass is more centered in club music. Also because so much other things are going on in the stereo spectrum of club/house tracks.

Yes sure you can do whatever. But what you do should sound better than before you twisted that knob or added that plug-in.
And it should sound good in all listening environments.
If it does not, get back to the mix and twist some parameters.
Rinse and repeat.
 
Make music, do mixes; trial and error, asking questions in forums like you do. It is bound to take some time but the more you read, ask and mix the faster it goes.

Everyone can tell you how to drive a car. But you won´t learn it until you do the practical part.
Just the same with mixing - work those mixes.
Theory helps ofc.

I remember it was a bit frustrating not to know what to do. Still is.

Helps a lot to work with someone better than you.
 
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club sound systems tend to be mostly mono as there is no one spot in the room that receives a true stereo image, so a mix that is targeted for club systems would be different to one targeted or home listening headphone listening

as for where you learn this stuff - read, experiment, read, experiment, think, experiment, research, experiment, analyse mixes, experiment, analyse your own mixes, experiment, .....

I started reading about audio and electronics in 1975 as a 12 year old (although I started working in audio the year before when 11) and have continued to do so until now and will continue to do so until I can longer see and hear. Along the way I investigated psycho-acoustics and the physics of sound as well the underpinnings of mastering pre and post the advent of cd's

being professional has a commitment to ongoing learning
 
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