Volume versus Gain - Is There A Difference?

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catnap

Major Label Whore
I know this is probably a n00b-ish question, but I was wondering what the difference between adding more volume versus adding more gain.

in my opinion, Gain is like "loudness" - it adds an immediate boost to the overall track. But, could the same thing be acheived by just upping the volume?

the reason for this question is because i'm thinking about whether or not it's neccessary to have a Gain control on a rotary mixer.

on a fader mixer, typically I mix with the volume faders all the way to the top when a track is at "full volume". I use the Gains to make sure that no matter the differences in pressing or carts, having the volume fader all the way up yields the same output levels on every channel.

But on a rotary, there's no strictly defined top - I guess you could go to 10 but it's more natural to keep things around 7 or 8 o'clock.

So, on a rotary mixer, is Gain then something that can be done away with completely? what do you guys think?
 
Hello Mate.

The gain control is for reducing
the gain before the fader. So, if
you are mixing two songs, and, one
song is louder than the other, you
use the gain to compensate the levels
among the two.

This is also good if you are using
high output cartridges, and, you
are overloading the phono pre amp.

If you are planning to buy an old
rotary mixer, the gain feature is
important. The preamp section distorts
rather quickly, if the phono cartridge
is too loud.

Cheers.
 
No, it is not necessary at all. In my opinion, it is just something that gets in the way of sound quality. I much prefer the Bozak and Urei sound structure to my Rane. One less pot for the signal to go through...

However, if you look at the 2016, which I believe you own too, you will notice that the cue meters are set up to show volume based on the gain pot, and not the volube pot. Because of this, I adjust gains, and then max out my volume pots all at the same level to be even. I usually fun them at 8 or 9 depending on how I feel at home, and how the system runs when playing on others.
 
the reason for this post is that in my Version 2 re-design of that "ultimate rotary" i'm working on, i was thinking of removing the gain knobs altogether, in favor of pan knobs. i was just wondering if they could be eliminated without taking away from the mixer's flexibility.
 
Catnap, without gain control a "Cue-mix" "Cue-pan" (or whatever you call it) knob makes no sense: as we all know this fader/knob is to preview your mix in your headphone; you can´t do that if your channels don´t gave about the same level, so you need the gain knob to use a cue-mix function

hope that helps
 
Jensx said:
Catnap, without gain control a "Cue-mix" "Cue-pan" (or whatever you call it) knob makes no sense: as we all know this fader/knob is to preview your mix in your headphone; you can´t do that if your channels don´t gave about the same level, so you need the gain knob to use a cue-mix function

hope that helps
Click to expand...

excellent point!

i guess the gain knobs must stay.
 
Jensx, i'm confused about what you are talking about when you say "cue-pan" or "cue-mix". what i understood catnap saying is that he wanted individual balance controls for each channel like the 1620. i took what you said to have something to do with the cue circuit. i would prefer to have gain controls simply to set each channel gain so that all levels are the same on the fader scale. - jeff h
 
I think Catnap understood what I was trying to say - on his fantasy-rane-mixer there was a cue-mix-knob like on the new mp 2016a; you can fade between the pfl and the master; if the knob is in the middle the balance between pfl and master should be 50/50 - this can´t be archived without gains per channel

indeed the mix-knob is not useless without individual gains, but leaving the gains away would degrade the use of the mix-pot

maybe it´s clearer now
 
But an adjustable knob means that you can just move it to achieve a 50/50 balance, so again, gains are not neccessary.
 
of course, Peasant, I just wanted to add a point which hadn´t been mentioned;

50/50 don´t have to be in the middle necessarily, but perhaps to some users, it would be nice to have it in the middle
 
Perfectly fair point. I am not a supporter of gains on rotary mixers in case it is difficult to tell. ;)
 
I am not a supporter of gains on rotary mixers in case it is difficult to tell.
Click to expand...
i hear ya, but i just prefer either a level playing field with the main faders or an indication of each channel i am cueing. my ears work pretty well, but setting the gain or a visual backup helps me equalize things. a pan is a nice thing to have imho though. it's almost never used, but when you need it, it's invaluable to have. - jeff h
 
so, it seems that i can leave out the gains... if the only possibly downside is that the headphone cue/mix knob isn't 50/50 when at 12 o'clock, that's a very small issue in my opinion.

okay... goodbye, gains! ;)
 
I think the gains are still a remainder from studio mixers.
In studio's there is something as the gain structure you have to respect, which means you need to work each stage at it's optimum operating level.

If the incoming signal is too low, you won't have an optimum S/N range (in simple words, you risk drowning the smallest signals in noise quicker). Which means that later on, you might need to boost the level, and take up the noise too. You understand then that the preamp needs to be of very good quality not to add too much noise of its own.

If the level comes in too hot, you risk distorting.

As all sources don't output at the same level, that's what the gain is for. It adjusts the INPUT level. You set it so the signal either averages around 0 (if using VU's) or peaks at 0 (using peak meters), which ensures the optimum level.

The fader adjusts the OUTPUT of the channel... After all "processing" has been done.

Now, in dj'ing you could go on with this way of thinking.

But, two considerations here.
First, the PA systems used even in very good clubs/events are mostly a limiting factor. You could easily say the quality is hundreds times less than in the studio. Having to care about optimum gain structure here is only for crazy people like me :D

Secondly, indeed the main use for gains in dj'ing isn't really the same as in studio. The gains are mainly used to level out differences in loudness. As most dj mix with output faders at maximum, it's easy to set gains so the channels "level out". Even more when you perform cutting tricks with the upfaders. What if fader A is at max, while fader B is at "7". When you perform a fast cut on fader B, and you bring it back up, you need to bring it back up at "7" to find the same volume again. It's much easier if the faders are at their max position, because they can't go any further. You slam the fader back up and find the same level again no problemo.

Which brings us to your question.
As it's a rotary mixer, it's not as common as with linear faders to do fast cuts with them. Usually rotaries are for long smooth mixes, so that's one less thing you really need gains for.
So, if you're not the type of guy using his faders at max position when playing the tune live, the gain is not really needed for leveling out. You just find the right spot on your rotary, set and forget...

Well, for the rest it's up to you if you want to respect gain structure or not. There are both views to that. Like Peasant said, there are people that say each extra component adds more to the deterioration of the signal. And then there are those (that come from the studio world) that say that operating each stage of the equipment at it's optimum level, even if it requires some gain, is better. In my opinion it's a combination of both...
 
noise is one part of it.

Mixers work by having an amplification stage (adds voltage) which you adjust the amount of with the gain... its the first thing that gets done to the signal after it goes in the RCAs. all the faders do is add resistance to this which decreases the voltage.

The gain doesn't adjust the input level, thats fixed- by the cartridge and the record. the point of the gain nob is to adjust the amount of amplification thats applied to the input... the issue here is whether you have a set level of amplification which you can only adjust down by adding resistance with the fader or whether you can tailor the initial amount of amplification thats applied to the signal.

Every amplification stage adds distortion to the signal.. the more amplification you add the more distortion you add. if you add distortion at the first gain stage (in the mixer) this is going to be amplified by the second stage (the power amp) and because the first stage amplifies only a little bit any distortion present in the output is amplified a lot by the second stage.

If you remove the gain control you have to set the amount of amplification applied to the output of the cartridge to a single (maximum)value (or you risk not being able to apply enough gain to small signals {quiet records}), regardless of whether the signal needs this much or not. so you'll always be getting the maximum amount of distortion regardless of whether its really nessecary or not.

by having an adjustable gain you can add less distortion to records that are recorded loudly whilst still being able to play records which are recorded quietly (albeit with more distortion)... call this a hangover from studios or not, the people who design mixers still know what they are doing. I for one would be pissed if i bought a mixer that didn't have an adjustable gain stage... quality of the audio signal is what differentiates hi end mixers from the mid range.
 
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This might not be relevant to the discussion, but I use the gains because they are the only thing that registers on the output level meters on my mixer (Smac 30). I find that with them I can adjust the volumes to keep my levels consistent while always keeping my levels at the same level, level level level level. Also, the volume faders don't register in the headphones either.

Some people may ask "why not just have the volume faders do that then?". I find that since the volume faders are used for mixing, that it would be more difficult to keep your levels consistent without gains (maybe it's just me). I find that if I was to mix 2 tracks together without the gains, using the volume faders that I would have to think about "okay, now I have to bring this track in at 9, then the next one is at 7" etc. because I would be pushing the volume faders up, and they wouldn't necessarily match with the outgoing track. I'm not experienced to do all my levelling by ear and like the fact that I have the gains there as a 'backup'. Now if I were using an xone 62 let's say, where the gains are on the back (I think), I guess my entire theory would go to the sh!tter. So just disregard this post entirely.
 
The 62's gains are on the front. I do not know exactly why, but I feel differently about the issue with fader and rotary mixers. I like fader mixers to have gains and meters, I do not care so much about rotary. Ideal to me would be a Bozak or something with some extra outputs going to external meters for cue and program.

I understand what you are saying about the meters though. My 2016 works that way, so the gains are needed to even things up visually.
 
damn... i am getting SCHOOLED!!! thank you guys sooo much, i am learning a lot from this thread.

after what i've read so far, i think i'm going to put the gains back on every channel.

the biggest thing i've learned so far is how to structure the front panel - how many knobs & functions and how they are laid out. i wish i could include the pans on every line but i don't think it's neccessary, especially in light of the advantage that having gains on every channel would give you.
 
i personally hate the LEDs.....

much rather use my ears......

of course when i go deaf
 
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