Ortofon's w/ Strait-Arm Tables

[GuyStyles]

I am using ortofon DJS concorde needles with my gemini SA-2400 tables. I believe the SA stands for Strait Arm, because my tables have strait tonearms. My tables also came with headshells that were kinda crooked at about a 60 degree angle so I could mount shure needles and etc. The DJS needles are strait, so it hits the record at an odd angle.
I've been playing like this for a long time without problems, but last weekend when I was playing at a party one of the DJs told me that the position of the needle on the record wasn't good for the record at all. I don't really know this guy, and I had a feeling he was talking out of his a** because I've seen Vestax' w/ DJS carts, but the vestax' strait tonearm is a lot shorter than my gemini's tonearm.
Could someone clear this up for me?

 

[Peasant Nikon]

I personally think that any straight-arm puts the cart in a bad position for your vinyl, but that will just start an argument, so ignor that I said it. I believe the gemini SA series has LONG straight arms, that put the cart in the same position as a curved arm with a normal headshell. Therefore, having a concorde on a SA series puts it in a position different from both the technics and vestax tables.
-Peasant Nikon

 

[punosion]

I personally think that any straight-arm puts the cart in a bad position for your vinyl, but that will just start an argument, so ignor that I said it. ...

No argument, here...that's a known issue. On "audiophile" turntables wtih straight tonearms.

Refer to this post in the archives:
https://www.futureproducers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22551

Check out this article from KAB USA:
http://www.kabusa.com/str8_doc.htm

You will see "audiophile" turntables with straight tonearms, but they actually do it right, as in they have proper overhang and offset angle accounted for in the design of the headshell. This is also like you see in the Gemini's. As that article refers to, straight tonearms for DJ applications are underhung. This creates more stability, but more distortion and record wear.

EDIT: Another thing, about the spherical versus elliptical...there is no argument either that when you use underhung straight tonearms for DJ's, you must use spherical needles. I'll just rip a quote from that KAB article...

The straight arm has found a new home with Scratch DJ's, because, the needle is more stable in the groove when the platter is being spun back and forth as that artform requires. The trade off is excessive groove wear and distortion.

Because of the excessive tracking error of 17 degrees, you must never use elliptical styli in a straight arm. The fine edges of the elliptical profile depend on near perfect tangental alignment. with an error of 17 degrees, these fine edges become sharp cutting tools and will shave the surface of the vinyl groove. Stick with conical or spherical shaped styli when using a straight Scratch DJ tonearm.

This presents a dilemma for the home enthusiast because many of these Scratch DJ turntables are coming equipped with 78 speed which makes them appealing to record collectors. Our advice is to choose a conventional offset tonearm style instead. Leave the straight tonearm for the Scratch DJ's. If you have read this and understand it, tell a friend and pass the word. It will make life alot easier for the collector or audio enthusiast about to make a turntable purchase.

So, regardless of the argument whether or not spherical or elliptical create more or less record wear, etc. ellipticals will be a nightmare to your vinyls when used with straight tonearms. And we're talking straight...not S-shaped a'la Technics, or straight tonearm with a kink in it a'la Gemini 2400, but straight as in straight line from stylus down through the tonearm to the pivot point. If you have one of these...for the love of your vinyl records, you must use spherical!



EDIT 2:

... I believe the gemini SA series has LONG straight arms, that put the cart in the same position as a curved arm with a normal headshell. Therefore, having a concorde on a SA series puts it in a position different from both the technics and vestax tables. ...

Nikon, I'm not sure about how the SA series differs from where the tonearm puts the axis of the needle at in relation to the record, but I'm sure that it's pretty similar. Maybe their deisgn is a variation on the Technics, where the angle the S would put the headshell at is incorporated into the headshell itself? Therefore, it would place the needle at the same axis as a Technics tonearm would? If that's the case, it would seem that you would need to use the Gemini headshell to be sure the correct adjustment is incorporated. Otherwise, it would perform just like a straight tonearm, and then you wouldn't be able to use ellipticals. This is all just a guess, don't know for sure...

I'd take caution, and peruse the archives. Although sometimes this can raise more questions than it can provide answers

 

[dj /-/2o]

The "Straight" Tonearm on Gemini's is longer than an actual straight tone-arm. So they give you that wack curved headshell. The tonearm in it's all entirety isn't really a "straight" tone arm, the way it is set up kinda defeats the purpose.

I'm not sure if Punosion said that or not..but oh well.

But to answer your question, no, i don't think Ortofons will work, because they cannot go onto the headshell and create the correct angle.

 

[bilen]

I think most things have been said here, but i just thought i'd sum it up

This gemini deck has a long straight arm with angled headshell just like most hifi-turntables today. It is designed to have overhang exactly like an s-shaped arm. The difference between overhung straight and s-shaped arms have been debated and i think that the main difference was just rigidity and mass. Anyway, a cart mounted on the headshell with correct overhang will work just like on an s-shaped arm. Concerning ortofon carts, OM models will work just fine. Concordes however that must be mounted directly to the tonearm will give a very strange angle in this case which i really don't know how it will behave. With this setup spherical stylus are highly recommended, but i wouldn't recommend this setup at all......

 

[dj /-/2o]

To sum up the summing up, they won't work, it will not form the correct angle. You will see this by putting a regular headshell on the Geminis.


Ps...GuyStyles..hope everythings good..
Last time I heard from you we didn't get offf to a good start, and you haven't been around. So, welcome back!

 

[punosion]

H2o and bilen summed up what I should have said directly

bilen, actually the biggest concern with straight tonearms is huge increase in distortion and record wear, even when using sphericals. Ellipticals shouldn't even be considered. The benefit for that cost, however, is added stability in the groove.

Basically, from what I can tell, the Gemini does have a normal straight tonearm. The Gemini headshell mimics the Technics S-shaped Technics-style tonearm, so an elliptical cart can be mounted on the Gemini headshell just fine. But, when you want to use an Ortofon with its own P-shaped mount headshell, you can't use the Gemini headshell...you need to remove the Gemini headshell to mount the Ortofon P-mount headshell. This obviously eliminates the Gemini headshell's curve, as the headshell isn't there at all!

However, if you are using the Gemini headhsell and mounting OM-style carts, it will still act like an S-shaped tonearm, as you are still utilizing the Gemini headshell with the added curve.

Get it? Got it? Good!