808 snare/clap technique

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WeissSound

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I just had an interview for TheProAudioFiles.com with Dave Pensado where I've referred to this technique - I won't have room for this detailed explanation in the actual writeup of the interview. So here's something to mull over:


So, all of these threads have come up with 808s. I'm currently mixing an
album that has a lot of 808 snares and claps. 808s are super simplistic
sounds, so what could possibly make one 808 snare any better than
another. I listened to a bunch of samples and I figured something out.

An 808 snare is basically a compound noise generator going through a
serious of envelope based frequency filters. Ok - so you get shaped sound
at multiple pitches - that's it. Big deal right? Well, it's true, but you
get something else as well. Analog filters, in addition to their primary
effect generate something called ring. It's when the phase shifting
elements in the filter continue resonating as they let go of their
voltage.

What does that mean. Well, if you listen very closely to an 808 snare -
you'll hear a "shadow" of that snare at the tail of it. A broad band
shadow of a sound is basically the equivalent of a trashy plate reverb (sonically, mechanically it's totally different).
It's like every real 808 snare has the tiniest drop of weird plate mixed in
with it.

So my first technique, which worked, was to use compression to bring it
out - low threshold, super long attack, super fast release. Only RComp
seemed to get it right - though I'm sure there are other compressors that
can do it. The really precise attack and release times are kind of
necessary to get it to work.

My second experiment which is almost comically complex, but worked out
really really well used Spl De-Verb (not to be confused with the digi
reverb). I purchased this plug-in because I got film work and
occasionally home studio tracking that had too much room. It's basically
an intelligent gate. Now I'm putting it to use in a more creative way:

I copy the 808 snare onto a duplicate track. I put De-Verb on the
duplicate 808 snare and flip the result out of phase. This leaves behind
what De-Verb removes. I adjust the De-Verb parameters so that I hear the
maximum amount of "reverb" with the least amount of dry sound, and the
least amount of phase distortion (though a bit is inevitable). I take a
third copy of the 808 snare, and blend the result of the two other copies
back in. This allows me to not only control the amount of filter
resonance in the 808, but can allow me to add predelay, body and/or
brightness. No compression artifacts, no phase distortion from eq'ing the
dry signal. With this album I'm working on, I think I have the best 808
snare sound out right now.
 
Honestly, this sounds like a mad professor who forgot how easy life can be. This is over-engineering at it's best (or: "I'm paid by hour, I need something complex to waste some time in front of the client").

A 808 snare is a basic synth patch. Even the most simple drum synths plugins offer an 808 preset, most of them sound good (some of them sound better than the original in practice). One can easily shape the sound to taste at the source - without any post-processing.

Now what the hell is all that strange ringing/shadow talk about?! I mean, what about simple and absolutely sufficient ADSR tweaking on the drum synth or sampler before throwing the nukes? What about simple filtering to add brightness and/or weight? These two functions actually do nothing else than the guy asked for - without any specialized plugins and routing:

"This allows me to not only control the amount of filter
resonance in the 808, but can allow me to add predelay, body and/or
brightness. No compression artifacts, no phase distortion from eq'ing the
dry signal"

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but all this currently doesn't make much sense to me. It's just a very strange way to fix very easy problems.
 
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moses said:
Honestly, this sounds like a mad professor who forgot how easy life can be. This is over-engineering at it's best (or: "I'm paid by hour, I need something complex to waste some time in front of the client").

A 808 snare is a basic synth patch. Even the most simple drum synths plugins offer an 808 preset, most of them sound good (some of them sound better than the original in practice). One can easily shape the sound to taste at the source - without any post-processing.

Now what the hell is all that strange ringing/shadow talk about?! I mean, what about simple and absolutely sufficient ADSR tweaking on the drum synth or sampler before throwing the nukes? What about simple filtering to add brightness and/or weight? These two functions actually do nothing else than the guy asked for - without any specialized plugins and routing:

"This allows me to not only control the amount of filter
resonance in the 808, but can allow me to add predelay, body and/or
brightness. No compression artifacts, no phase distortion from eq'ing the
dry signal"

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but all this currently doesn't make much sense to me. It's just a very strange way to fix very easy problems.
Click to expand...

Well (A) I generally don't charge by hour. (B) I look for the most effective solution first - simple or complex. I came up with a solution both simple, and one somewhat more complex that allows for the versatility of having unique control to the ring in the tail of the drum. (C) I mix - loading drum sounds into a sampler, when I have an entire track of drums would take way longer - maybe on the front end of production this would be better - but it would still be different from the second approach.

I believe you have missed the point. I'm describing a way to get at a core piece of what could possibly make an 808 snare drum unique, different, or better - as they are very simple sounds. This is not about fixing a problem - this is a way to enhance an already good 808.

The "ringing" is an effect of passing the sound through a series of filters. This happens in a different way when you eq something. The ring is in fact separate from the envelope decay of the noise generation. If you don't have it in your 808 software plugins then this technique is obviously not meaningful. If you happen to be using good 808 samples on the other hand..
 
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Some may say...whats the big deal, it's just an 808, but I think we should all continuously be looking for new sounds that inspire us to new sonic territories. They say there is nothing new under the sun, but it is exactly this kind of out of the box way of looking at something that we have all heard thousands of times (like an 808 snare) that inspires experimentation and who knows what new sounds folks can come up with. Thats my two cents.
 
I just used this technique again today. It allowed me to put a delay on the "wind" signal, which is what I'm calling it now - worked very well. To my knowledge I can't think of any other way to accomplish a similar effect. It's a little mad scientist but it's pretty cool.
 
I'm with Moses on this one. You'd really have to be looking for this exact sound that only this can give you. Other than that, there's only so much you can do to an analog clap/snare and everything after that it's a creative effect rather than getting optimal sound quality from it.

Rcomp is perhaps my most widely-used processor and it won't do much of anything with a long release. Even if you have the threshold set all the way down and the ratio set to max. Any tail you catch is insignificant with something like a clap, or snare. I like that rcomp is not as quirky like the Waves SSL compressor. SSL compressor is a little different in that just running audio through it seems to do something, different ratios=different sound and different autogain for same GR and you have to fight with it a little more to get it right. Even the C1 compressor might have more effect since it can be more aggressive with a little push.

Not to discredit you, OP. Just two very different schools of thought.
 
I dig it. I would agree this is an "effect", it's not going to fix anything - it's kind of more like adding reverb.

Dave talked about a technique where he would copy a track and pitch shift that track up an octave - then send that pitch shifted mult to a reverb. He does to add excitement to a sound - particularly vocals. This is a weird quirky technique, but it does enhance the sound. The technique that I am talking about here is in a similar vein. It's not gonna fix a broken sound, but it will add some depth and excitement.

The thing that sucks/is awesome about 808 sounds and a lot of old drum machine sounds is that they are very simple. On the one hand, this can make a regular old 808 sound really boring. On the other hand, because they're so simple you can really abuse the hell out of them and do all sorts of crazy shit and it usually produces interesting results (if not exiciting results).
 
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