It is funny when people here say about mastering...

[dvyce]

...
that being said, getting a $100 mastering job on your demo if you have been making the right noises etc is much less frivilous than you may make out.

sure the label guys are listing for artistic content and should have the ability to see beyond the lack of production skills but we should be honest and admit that the industry is both fickle, cut-throat and less than perfect and often the only skills A&R have is that they were friends of someone who works there and are into music. i know plenty A&R and thats how they all got their jobs.
a shody demo with the best artistic content is just going to get turfed before it gets a chance to show them how good the artistic conribution within it is. this is a sad fact but true across the board it seems.

I never said that the label guys look beyond someones lack of production skills. when you send out a demo, it should have your absolute best performances and the best sounds and the best mix possible. The production should be top notch. This does not mean you need the absolute best gear but you should know how to use what you have perfectly. If you make a great production on a less than perfect quality system, it can still sound just as good "production wise" but just with a little lessof the frequency robustness. For instance, i can do a mix on an Mbox and a ProTools HD system and use the same types of plugins in the same way and the mixes will sound similar... they will both be top notch productions/mixes, but the Mbox version will just be a bit duller (but not in a way where the mix or production itself will sound bad... like i said earlier, if you take a great song from a CD and make an MP3 and record it onto a cassette, it will still sound like a great song with great production only a little duller.)

If your production skills suck, nobody will take your music seriously... and getting your track with sucky production mastered will not help anything.

I am by no means saying that if you send a demo that is produced badly, a record guy will "see the artistic merit" in that. I am sure that demo will go right in the garbage.

What I am saying is that if a demo exists that a label guy likes, that label guy would like it regardless of whether it is mastered or not.

without some earlier dialogue and interest from within the label and previous exposure they arent going to take the time to plough through a low quality CD just incase theres great stuff hidden away in there. something you already mentioned and although mastering a demo isnt going to have labels charging to your door it will atleast help it to shine as well as it can and if played in amongst a load of other stuff of similar artistic value but less quality might just be enough to get you a call back.

Once again, I am not talking about finding a "needle in a haystack". I am saying that your demo should be all incredible songs with all incredible production. If any of your songs are not killer tracks, you should not be sending that demo out.

Having your tracks mastered will not be the difference between laughing at it and loving it.

If you think you need to master your tracks to "fix" them, then you have bigger problems with your tracks than mastering that need to be addressed.

...and "without some earlier dialogue and interest from within the label and previous exposure" they not only "arent going to take the time to plough through a low quality CD just incase theres great stuff hidden away in there" but I can almost 100% guarantee you that they won't even listen to your demo to hear how good it is in the first place... that is a whol different topic

i do quite a bit of demos from bands properly on the verge and they all reiterate this fact...or their manager does.

Well, hey, I'm not just talking out of my ass, here... I am speaking from experience.

a friends band has just signed to a major and they wouldnt let them hear anything without recording it in a studio and getting it mastered quickly first, all at their own expense. they had exposure from live performances, summer festivals etc but felt that anything they were giving them that might be of dubious quality would only damage their prospects even though the labels were talking to them. their opinion was one bad track could end it before it had started and they were right. doing this atleast kept their heads above the load of other guitar bands being looked at. they got picked up, alot of bands on the same round with perhaps better material but less savvy were not.

Like I said, your production should be top notch. I would not show a crappy production to a label (or anyone else)

ive friends who run a couple of independent labels here in the uk and have been round when they have been playing demos. lets just say that comments were unkind, much laughing was made and the work was never given a chance. a large portion of these had been from artists who had alteast made contact before sending in. sure good quality stuff with poor content was joked about just as much but it did happen to work that sounded like it contained good ideas.
is this childish, you bet, its certainly unprofessional but it goes on right across the country. it was no different when i used to release electronica and no different from a friend who works as A&R for a major in london tells either.

I am sure the things people were laughing at could not have been saved by mastering. The music needs to sound good and this means good sounds and good performances and good mixes. We all know there is a lot of crappy music out there and it is not crappy because of the mastering or lack thereof.

I personally don't necessarily think it is either childish or unprofessional. When you get hundreds of demo's each day, it is quite understandable to roll your eyes at another bad demo that comes in and to speak honestly and candidly about it together. It would be unprofessional to laugh in a guys face who came into your office.

i was at a seminar last year in london and the last day was a Q&A session with industry A&Rs both from majors and indie labels regarding the future. it got on to new artists and they openly admitted that most demos go straight to the bin after less then 30 seconds, mainly based on quality, as they arent prepared to sift through dirge when there will be something as good but of a good standard in the pile.
they also admitted that they had little interest in demos anyways. they were aware of what and who was going about and unless you had atleast local exposure and following they werent prepared to invest time in you.
the moral seemed to be that if you arent prepared to invest in yourself then they arent either and that a press pack accompanying it was as crucial as the work.
it certainly gave some people a shock, especially that independents felt the same way however it really just served to emphasise what many already felt was the case. i guess the huge growth in home production has meant a huge rise in demos even to independents and that they have responded in the same way the big guys already were.

That is no secret... you can tell whether something is good or bad very quickly... and I don't think there is anyone who thought a label guy gives any more time to a song than that before he makes a judgment... I find it hard to believe that anybody was shocked by that.

I must maintain, though, that finding music of a "good standard" in that pile will not hinge on whether it was mastered or not.

Yes, it is very important to invest in yourself... but you need to know where to invest. There are certain things that are more and less important at different stages of the game, and at different points in the process of making a record.

it all paints a gloomy picture somewhat but it sadly seems to be the case. maybe things in the US are different than here in europe.

I have worked with labels and artists in Europe as well as the US and they are exactly the same... if it weren't for the accents, I wouldn't know the difference.

 

[neilwight]

dvyce,
thanks,

i didnt for one minute think you were just talking hot air and i very much respect your opinions on here when they are presented hence the reason i responded. i was interested in a dialogue to explore it a little further.

it actually looks like our thoughts were actually pretty convergent as regards the quality of what should get sent in etc. it was more a method of obtaining that that was being debated and im sure if we had been stood together it would have been an interesting conversation that lasted about 5 minutes at most. sometimes forums arent the most succesful places for discussions

i was just suggesting that for some atleast its a viable option to ensuring its there enough to present the best view of their artistic merit. many are putting out demos where they dont have this either from inexperience or a lack of desire to understand and yet the content is exceptional.
for as many its not necessary to be done though. i wouldnt get my demos done as i feel confident enough in my production skills that it will be good enough. im sure you are the same and to echo your sentiments i wouldnt care less if id used my lavry converters or my old echo laylas. the difference for this is not an issue in this situation.

mastering a crumby mix isnt going to make it gold as everyone knows but it might just make it passable for those that need it.
i guess being aware of ones limits is the key here. i wouldnt send a crap production to anyone, even my girlfriend, you wouldnt either but many do and as many do again as its the best they can achieve. for them some external input is required and its a role a quick spin over in mastering can sometimes fulfill. having it worked in a studio would achieve the same.

i guess thats all my point was trying to make. the initial comment further back was related to raising awareness in people that maximising quality wasnt just an issue for commercial releases.

 

[dvyce]

i didnt for one minute think you were just talking hot air and i very much respect your opinions on here when they are presented hence the reason i responded. i was interested in a dialogue to explore it a little further.

it actually looks like our thoughts were actually pretty convergent as regards the quality of what should get sent in etc. it was more a method of obtaining that that was being debated and im sure if we had been stood together it would have been an interesting conversation that lasted about 5 minutes at most. sometimes forums arent the most succesful places for discussions

I do agree that forums often aren't the best places for successful discussions.

...and please don't think I was trying to be confrontational or argumentative (well, maybe just a little... a guy's got to have some fun )... I realize my typing style is very "matter-of-fact" and formal... but that is really mostly my effort to be as clear as possible in the absence of the other things that usually assist in getting ones point across (hand gestures, facial expressions, tonality, emphasis, etc.)

(that is why I try to throw these smiles in once and a while)

 

[sleepy]

in the absence of the other things that usually assist in getting ones point across (hand gestures, facial expressions, tonality, emphasis, etc.)

Flicking people off, punches to the face...

 

[neilwight]

haha, that really made me laugh out loud sleepy. im still at it now typing.

dvyce, theres was nothing taken in any way at all. i often find myself using twice as many words as required in an attempt to keep away from this......still doesnt work

 

[El-One]

So if most of the stuff i am reading here is correct, I shouldn't worry about mixing and mastering anymore. And unless i am willing to practice those skills during few years, i'd better give my beats to a studio engineer and pay for professionality. Right?

 

[dvyce]

So if most of the stuff i am reading here is correct, I shouldn't worry about mixing and mastering anymore. And unless i am willing to practice those skills during few years, i'd better give my beats to a studio engineer and pay for professionality. Right?

No, that is not correct.

You should worry about mixing and mastering. You keep practicing your skills until you get good.

(the whole point of this thread is that EVERYTHING is equally important to your sound)

If you are not willing to practice those skills for a few years (and longer... it is really a never ending journey) then it would seem that music is just a hobby for you... and in that case, if it is just a hobby, then just do what you like and what makes you happy. If you are just making music just for fun (which is fine) then there is no reason to pay to have anything "professionally" done.

If you are just making music for yourself and you are not trying to sell it to anyone or put out CD's and do this for your life, then the only standards you must meet are your own... just have fun.

But if making music is your life's passion and you are serious about it, it takes time to do well. Just like it takes years to be a good musician and it takes years to be a good songwriter and it takes years to become a good producer... it takes years to become a good engineer.

It takes time to do anything well.

Just because music is a "fun" thing does not mean it it does not take a lot of hard work and practice to do well.

You should look at your music objectively and you should be able to hear where your music is lacking. If you honestly write great songs but your sounds suck... then maybe you should hook up with a producer and make tracks together. If you are a great producer and your mixing sucks, maybe you should hook up with a talented engineer and have him help you out with mixes.... but, honestly, to be a producer, you really need to be a pretty good mixer, too.

If you are trying to do this for your life then you need to take it seriously and you must be willing to put the time into it. But if you are just doing it for fun, then don't worry about it and just make music however you want.


and remember... just because somebody is a "professional" does not mean they are good. Listen to other things they have done to see if that person is right for you.

 

[El-One]

Thanx for the reply. I wasn't really serious about what i said but this topic put ùmy nose to the facts. It is true indeed that mixing and mastering involves a lot of practice and also important: a lot of expensive gear. While earlier i wanted to keep on believing, man could make good hip-hop music with a basic setup. I know have to acknowledge times have been changing and home recordings don't stand a chance against all those heavy and pro produced mainstream albumz. Off course i will continue and try to make the best mix possible with the software i have but in the end it always seems more quiet than professional recorded music.
Anyway, a friend of mine here in belgium works as an engineer in a little semi-pro studio so if a crewmember wants to record somethin with proper equipement we have a possibility.
It's just that till now i kept on tryin' at home but after reading few of the topics here i think i'm gonna start givin' in from time to time when things get more serious.

I will drop a beat here this weekend and than you'lle get what i mean probably.

Peazel

 

[dvyce]

Thanx for the reply. I wasn't really serious about what i said but this topic put ùmy nose to the facts. It is true indeed that mixing and mastering involves a lot of practice and also important: a lot of expensive gear. While earlier i wanted to keep on believing, man could make good hip-hop music with a basic setup. I know have to acknowledge times have been changing and home recordings don't stand a chance against all those heavy and pro produced mainstream albumz. Off course i will continue and try to make the best mix possible with the software i have but in the end it always seems more quiet than professional recorded music.
Anyway, a friend of mine here in belgium works as an engineer in a little semi-pro studio so if a crewmember wants to record somethin with proper equipement we have a possibility.
It's just that till now i kept on tryin' at home but after reading few of the topics here i think i'm gonna start givin' in from time to time when things get more serious.

I will drop a beat here this weekend and than you'lle get what i mean probably.

Peazel

I wouldn't say that "home recordings don't stand a chance against all those heavy and pro produced mainstream albums."

You can make great sounding music at home if you have the knowledge and practice... and that is knowledge that will help you forever as you move on to better and better gear.

Just try to realize that there are limitations with consumer gear and understand what those limitations are and how to work around them and to use them to your advantage.

It is like saying you don't have a good enough sampler to make pro tracks because all you have is an old 12bit sampler instead of a new 24bit sampler... but you use that 12bit samplers limitations as an advantage by making your music all about those grimey beats.... now everybody wants old 12bit samplers... see what I mean?

Or if your guitar has only one string so you make all your music with a "1 string guitar" and your sound becomes all about that sound.

Having limitations is what drives innovation.

...now theres a "clichés of wisdom" for ya' Cubbyhouse ("Having limitations is what drives innovation"... and I just wrote that myself) but it really is very true.



oh, and as far as the volume level of your music being lower that other music... that is something that mastering can help with.

 

[Pahzel]

(enthusiastic applause)

 

[Buddha]

I’m doing the best I can in my studio and the relevant info I need is direct mixing techniques, which I’ve never gotten in any forum or read in any books, by the way
---------------------------------------
Word, Im basically like that. Well, Ive read a TON about mixing in forums, but sometimes I feel that its just not the real deal from tru insiders.

I mean Ive read good BASIC info on the purpose of compression and eq, but Ive never read about the deep studio tricks that take a track from sounding merely "well mixed" to sounding "huge and commercial"...