Can't get my track louder, even after using a limiter?

[Bobcat]

Hey people,

I can't get my track as loud as I would like to, even with a limiter. What else will make it louder? I left a lot of headroom (all tracks ranging from -10 to -40 dB, most of them at -20 however). Can I go even lower, like at -100? Will that allow me to make it even louder later?

Without the limiter, the song sounds completely different. Now it's like if it reached its limits. If I use the limiter even more it will sound bad, it will make like "jumps" between frequencies and really push everything to the top.

Should we maybe think about how much we will compress the track before we even master it, while we're still at mixing? And make the track already "flatter" in the production stages so that later it gives the wanted sound?

Or how else can I make it even louder?

All help appreciated of course

Bobcat

 

[Mersikil]

This is why mastering engineers get paid good money for what they do. Is there a commercial song in particular that you are referencing for loudness?

Definitely you should be looking at reducing the dynamic range somewhat during mixing rather than just slamming a really dynamic mix through a limiter if your aim is loudness.

Personally i think people doing bedroom mastering should forget about trying to compete with commercial music in terms of loudness and just focus on making their music sound good.

 

[WeissSound]

This is why mastering engineers get paid good money for what they do. Is there a commercial song in particular that you are referencing for loudness?

Definitely you should be looking at reducing the dynamic range somewhat during mixing rather than just slamming a really dynamic mix through a limiter if your aim is loudness.

Personally i think people doing bedroom mastering should forget about trying to compete with commercial music in terms of loudness and just focus on making their music sound good.

This has nothing to do with mastering and everything to do with mixing. Controlling the dynamics during the mix is definitely part of that equation. And the last point here is a very good one - if it sounds good at a quieter level - leave it!

 

[~X~]

I left a lot of headroom (all tracks ranging from -10 to -40 dB, most of them at -20 however). Can I go even lower, like at -100? Will that allow me to make it even louder later?

once you have headroom, your mix is your mix. cut up the volume on your speakers; if it sounds like the mix still isnt loud then its an element in your mix thats killing the loudness after you limit it. lower frequencies eat up headroom more than higher; thats why with mixes with sub bass you dont crank those tracks up... you'd compress them and level them, after that if you want it to be heard right you play with the harmonics. do it right and you can have your sub bass be heard(not felt of course) on 3" mid-woofers. you need to find BALANCE in your mix. maybe your overcompressing your mix. squash it too much and it loses punch. you can mix and keep dynamics with your mix and get loudness from that PUNCH, or you can overcompress and overlimit and just have loud noise. just gotta mix it right. if you post a sample we can help you better.

 

[sleepy]

How much gain reduction are you getting?

 

[laurend]

Didn't you found the gain fader on each track ?

 

[Bobcat]

Well I decided to upload the track, it's easier to work that way: Sand King by Manoel M on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Maybe now my problem is more clear Plus it's full of soundcloud artifacts now... lol...

 

[laurend]

It's loud already. You can't be much louder. The only thing which can be improved is the mix which seems to be done at 50% by your final limiter.

 

[Bobcat]

I know it's loud but still not as loud as other tracks I hear. Is it the equipment I use or is it the way it is mixed/produced? Or both perhaps?

What exactly do you mean? Sorry if my english is not always so good - unfortunately I don't always understand everything. You mean I should put other limiters before the final stage?

 

[moses]

It's already very dense. Your track is just slightly missbalanced regarding the "equal loudness curve". Turn the limiter down by a dB or two and try to EQ the track instead.

Add a boost around the 4-7kHz region and maybe another above 10kHz. Also, increase the frequency region below 120Hz. You could do this is the mix as well. The snare for example needs more "snap" and crispiness, the bass could have more impact.

Also, try to play around with contrasts. Let the drums kick MORE and make the synths less loud and compressed (turn them down). This will make everything more open, yet still loud. And the 2.15 point would kick much more.

 

[laurend]

First you have to improve your mix without using a limiter on the master section. Use EQ at first place, then insert some compressors if needed.
Once you're entirely satisfied with your mix, you can use a limiter to grab few more dBs on the average level. Most tracks in that music genre are clearly distorted. That's a very dangerous game.
You should never forget that music is an art focused on sense, not a sport competition about loudness. Do not expect reaching the results people spent years to reach, in weeks or months.

Good luck

 

[Off_The_Ledge]

I know it's loud but still not as loud as other tracks I hear. Is it the equipment I use or is it the way it is mixed/produced? Or both perhaps?

What exactly do you mean? Sorry if my english is not always so good - unfortunately I don't always understand everything. You mean I should put other limiters before the final stage?

Firstly, I like the track. Good mix of bass melody and synth pads...the groove is infectious.

There are a lot of good points from the other posts. The magic is in the mix. Mastering is such a tricky area but even the best (guys like Bobby Owsinski; Drew Lavyne etc..) can only work their magic with good mixes. Mastering can't rescue a bad mix. (I don't think this is a bad mix at all! Just making the point)

I did a quick master of your song (I am no expert)...the link is below.

The chain for this process was: an expander to push up the lower bits (while trying to maintain the dynamic range); I then put on an EQ and to roll off a little from 150; then added another EQ to push up 2db at around 10K; a buss compressor to glue it together and then finaly a multiband limiter. As far as I can tell it adds a little more to it...you decide

(www51.zippyshare.com/v/53563731/file.html) --Copy and paste into url...

 

[Bobcat]

It's already very dense. Your track is just slightly missbalanced regarding the "equal loudness curve". Turn the limiter down by a dB or two and try to EQ the track instead.

Add a boost around the 4-7kHz region and maybe another above 10kHz. Also, increase the frequency region below 120Hz. You could do this is the mix as well. The snare for example needs more "snap" and crispiness, the bass could have more impact.

Also, try to play around with contrasts. Let the drums kick MORE and make the synths less loud and compressed (turn them down). This will make everything more open, yet still loud. And the 2.15 point would kick much more.

I see what you mean! I added some very very slight distortion on the snare, sounds better now. About the bass and the kick - well... I think the kick is already pretty hard when I compare it to other tracks. I like to hear professional tracks at home and then hear those same tracks on a dancefloor, it allows me to compare what works in a club and what doesn't. I think this kick is already pretty much the limit, I don't want to go in the Hardstyle direction!
The bass, yeah it could be a little bit stronger.

First you have to improve your mix without using a limiter on the master section. Use EQ at first place, then insert some compressors if needed.
Once you're entirely satisfied with your mix, you can use a limiter to grab few more dBs on the average level. Most tracks in that music genre are clearly distorted. That's a very dangerous game.
You should never forget that music is an art focused on sense, not a sport competition about loudness. Do not expect reaching the results people spent years to reach, in weeks or months.

Good luck

Yeah I remember we already talked about that. That's what I had done, I had removed the limiter and suddenly the kick sounded way too punchy and it all had a completely different effect. That clearly shows that a limiter can make a track either bouncy, groovy or stale or whatever! It's crazy.
But I like the effect the limiter gives. It's in that direction I want the track to sound! I know it's not a competition, I just want my music to sound professional and not cheap, so I can share it. Unfortunately these days you have to go with the flow, only once you've established yourself, you can go your own way and do whatever you want. That's what I'm trying!


Edit:

Firstly, I like the track. Good mix of bass melody and synth pads...the groove is infectious.

There are a lot of good points from the other posts. The magic is in the mix. Mastering is such a tricky area but even the best (guys like Bobby Owsinski; Drew Lavyne etc..) can only work their magic with good mixes. Mastering can't rescue a bad mix. (I don't think this is a bad mix at all! Just making the point)

I did a quick master of your song (I am no expert)...the link is below.

The chain for this process was: an expander to push up the lower bits (while trying to maintain the dynamic range); I then put on an EQ and to roll off a little from 150; then added another EQ to push up 2db at around 10K; a buss compressor to glue it together and then finaly a multiband limiter. As far as I can tell it adds a little more to it...you decide

(www51.zippyshare.com/v/53563731/file.html) --Copy and paste into url...

Thanks man really glad you like it! Glad it's infectious hehe!

I see your guys point. I definitely need to work on my mixing and mastering skills then. I also understand the professionals now, why they never master their tracks themselves but always someone to do it haha. But I don't want to be like that - I want to be able to finish a track and master it straight away and go on with the next project. That way I don't loose time and that way I can make tracks for myself which I don't want to share and which I can master myself then

I'm just hearing what you've done and I've gotta say I'm impressed. I'm still listening thru the crappy Zippy player but I already hear the differences. Downloading it now, can't wait! I should have made it downloadable, the soundcloud player just wastes quality...

Edit 2:

Yeah! The track is definitely "breathing" more and I also feel much more bass and it also seems louder. Where did you use the buss compressor? What did you sidechain?

 

[Khan88]

What's the main way you control volume levels? Master Fader, or the volume control on each track's channel?

 

[Off_The_Ledge]

"...I want to be able to finish a track and master it straight away and go on with the next project"

Yeah I was like that but I've been working with a producer/mix engineer/mastering engineer who has fantastic skills - so I get to learn from him (and everyone else whos good advice I read on forums). So he ends up mixing and mastering various things we do...

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

What's the main way you control volume levels? Master Fader, or the volume control on each track's channel?

I generally leave the Master Fader at unity (0) and use faders on the tracks and busses to control the overall volume (when mixing). I aim for somewhere in the region of -3db to -6db on the Master to leave headroom for the Mastering process

 

[Bobcat]

What's the main way you control volume levels? Master Fader, or the volume control on each track's channel?

With the levels on each channel, the master is at 0 db! All of these channels are between -10 and -40 db.

"...I want to be able to finish a track and master it straight away and go on with the next project"

Yeah I was like that but I've been working with a producer/mix engineer/mastering engineer who has fantastic skills - so I get to learn from him (and everyone else whos good advice I read on forums). So he ends up mixing and mastering various things we do...

Of course if I would work with someone who's better than me at it, I would let him do! But like you said, it doesn't stop you from learning aswell And maybe when he's not there once, it's not that bad to have your own skills

The thing is - and I know this may sound very stupid - that I want to learn this whole mastering and mixing thing as fast as possible. I know I was never good at it but that's what I want to change, I don't want to be dependent and ask others for help or need to wait or whatever... I also don't have much time for music production so that's one more reason why I want it finished fast... still waiting for the moment when it makes "click" and I finally get everything hehe...

 

[Off_The_Ledge]

Sorry, just noticed the edit on the previous post...

"I'm just hearing what you've done and I've gotta say I'm impressed. I'm still listening thru the crappy Zippy player but I already hear the differences. Downloading it now, can't wait! I should have made it downloadable, the soundcloud player just wastes quality...

Edit 2:

Yeah! The track is definitely "breathing" more and I also feel much more bass and it also seems louder. Where did you use the buss compressor? What did you sidechain? Last edited by Bobcat; 12 Minutes Ago at 10:07 PM. "


I used the Buss compressor second from last in the chain. It's not sidechained. It has 1.5:1 ratio; Fast attack; medium release; soft knee; and a little bit of gain at the end to compensate for the drop in volume. The main thing to say here is that the gain reduction is never more than (-1) db. I don't want to smack the compressor...more like massage it... this adds the "glue"

The volume increase is the Multiband Limiter (last in the chain). This gives you the ability to lower the threshhold (which then increases the overall volume) but I can then get into each band and adjust the threshold to my taste. An example is that if the bass is not big enough, I can adjust just that area to taste. If the high end needs different amounts I can then apply it to that band etc...

"The thing is - and I know this may sound very stupid - that I want to learn this whole mastering and mixing thing as fast as possible. I know I was never good at it but that's what I want to change, I don't want to be dependent and ask others for help or need to wait or whatever... I also don't have much time for music production so that's one more reason why I want it finished fast... still waiting for the moment when it makes "click" and I finally get everything hehe..."

This comment made me smile...It's exactly what I wanted...but to be honest...I have found in my case...it takes time. There is no quick fix. The longer I do it, the better I get (I am certainly not saying I'm good...but I am better every year than I was the previous year). I think That's obvious and it's a comment I've seen echoed on many forums.

 

[Bobcat]

Oh okay I thought it means you route a bus to an aux channel and sidechain with a compressor. That's the only way I've always been using compressors, like here for example, everytime the beat kicks in, it squeezes the bass. If used without bus, I never really understood what compressors were there for, what squeezed the sound? Nothing? Is it always squeezed? That's my guess. So confusing. But I've done a mistake between buss and bus here I guess. But the thing with the sidechain is what I always understood as "glueing" since it affects at least 2 channels/tracks, otherwise it sounded like it would be putting glue on something but nothing there to stick on that glue hehe.

Yeah I once used a Multiband compressor and saw you can choose different frequencies and where you want to boost. Never really got more into it. It always distorted because I was overdoing it haha, but now that I'm using a limiter I shall try again

That's what I was thinking! I hope time passes by fast then hehe. But it's ok - I'm young, I have time!

One thing I didn't mention by the way: I put the limiter in the same project I was working on the track. I heard this isn't good, and that you should first export the project in best quality and then restart a new one for the mastering session. I've done it that way because I never intended to go into it so deep, but of course now I could remove everything from my master, export the track and once I have done a good mixdown I can master the song using only one "sample" (reducing the whole song to only one track)

 

[Off_The_Ledge]

Oh okay I thought it means you route a bus to an aux channel and sidechain with a compressor. That's the only way I've always been using compressors, like here for example, everytime the beat kicks in, it squeezes the bass. If used without bus, I never really understood what compressors were there for, what squeezed the sound? Nothing? Is it always squeezed? That's my guess. So confusing. But I've done a mistake between buss and bus here I guess. But the thing with the sidechain is what I always understood as "glueing" since it affects at least 2 channels/tracks, otherwise it sounded like it would be putting glue on something but nothing there to stick on that glue hehe.Yeah I once used a Multiband compressor and saw you can choose different frequencies and where you want to boost. Never really got more into it. It always distorted because I was overdoing it haha, but now that I'm using a limiter I shall try again That's what I was thinking! I hope time passes by fast then hehe. But it's ok - I'm young, I have time! One thing I didn't mention by the way: I put the limiter in the same project I was working on the track. I heard this isn't good, and that you should first export the project in best quality and then restart a new one for the mastering session. I've done it that way because I never intended to go into it so deep, but of course now I could remove everything from my master, export the track and once I have done a good mixdown I can master the song using only one "sample" (reducing the whole song to only one track)

Compression: The original need for this type of processor (other forum members please jump in and correct me if I'm talking nonsense at any point here) was to control the extremes of the waveform. This is the extreme loud and quiet parts. So basically raise the quiet bits and soften the loud bits. An example is when you track a live bass (should be done with no plugins in my opinion...causes latency...I do sometimes use hardware during tracking but whatever you do in that case will be on the clip permanently) often the performance will have variations in volume consistency that you can control with compressors at the mix stage. In the analogue days the engineers noticed that the compressors all had their own sound. Even when no compression was applied, just running the signal through the device imparted a sonic quality to the sound. This created some excellent "warmth" that a lot of plugins try to copy these days. So what I mean is that compressors are also used to add "personality" to audio. It's not just for fixing.side-chaining is an excellent technique... definitely has some good uses!The other Compression technique I love is "Parallel Compression"...look it up...fantastic. It's often used on drums but I use it on vocals; guitars...whatever...Not everything needs it but it is effective.The last point: Adding a limiter to your mix is not a good idea in my opinion. (When doing the mix) I would always try to get the best mix possible and then bounce/export the stereo track out. I then do my attempt at the mastering process on it's own. So I separate the two. Mixing is one skill. Mastering is another. Also, I would not try to master straight after I have been mixing the track. Your ears need a rest because the more you hear the same thing, the more you accept the little issues. Your brain just compensates and presents it better than it is. I would always leave it a couple of days before coming back to that song for mastering. For me, it is always better to keep the areas of music production separate. It may be different for you, but give it a try. I hope this helps. There are loads of good engineers on this forum and most are very helpful. They've made me better, for sure.Laters...

 

[vexxxed]

I really need to read up on compression and limiting... never thought i needed it, i mixed down well.. what can they offer with a good mixdown?