rutiger45
New member
LOL maybe he should get some monitors? He should run the sound comming from his computer into his mixer like his MPC is. Problem solved. THere all the same damn thing. Alot of the "GRIT" is the result of a good engineer. it dont matter if you use an MPC, Reason, Fruity Loops, Cheerios, Cocoa Puffs its all the same shyt.
Trusty,
You make a lot of good points.Yeah,it's a fine line between maintaining tradition and doing our own thing and evolve from that.
Marley Marl said something very interesting about new technology that he could choose to hide behind his "vintage gear" but he has to check out the possibilities(software in particular) could bring to his music.Organized Noise said the same thing as well...
I'll add to what you said eloquently,a budding producer should not care about emulating so or so pioneer,but respect what they've accomplished...
You make a lot of good points.Yeah,it's a fine line between maintaining tradition and doing our own thing and evolve from that.
Marley Marl said something very interesting about new technology that he could choose to hide behind his "vintage gear" but he has to check out the possibilities(software in particular) could bring to his music.Organized Noise said the same thing as well...
I'll add to what you said eloquently,a budding producer should not care about emulating so or so pioneer,but respect what they've accomplished...
Mattman04
Kit Ramsey's brother
Personaly I did favor the mpc beat by at leat 20 mole holes, lol.
That's because he mixed it differantly though, and sampled drums that hit harder for that track.
A sencond view of the video reveals he does apear to believe it's tougher to make "heat" on software than his mpc.
These are his quotes:
"There is a differance...there's a differance with the warmth that's just a warm sound.... camera man can you hear that.......there is a differance in the sound that comes out of here(mpc) than there(software)....for that sound(points at mpc) to come out of there(points at reason) your going to have to do twice as much work""".
That's misinformation IMO.
That's because he mixed it differantly though, and sampled drums that hit harder for that track.
A sencond view of the video reveals he does apear to believe it's tougher to make "heat" on software than his mpc.
These are his quotes:
"There is a differance...there's a differance with the warmth that's just a warm sound.... camera man can you hear that.......there is a differance in the sound that comes out of here(mpc) than there(software)....for that sound(points at mpc) to come out of there(points at reason) your going to have to do twice as much work""".
That's misinformation IMO.
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Trusty said:
#2 are you serious? Have you ever owned an ASR 10...if you say that a sampler doesn't add color or warmth you don't know gear man. You can't tell me that those EPS's and SP1200s don't give a grimy sound that IMO can never be replicated by a program completly.
#4 I prefer those sampled beats man. Like what 9th wonder is doing the Kaze record, the MuRS records...man Madvilliany was one of the top underground records couple years back? Black Milk, Dilla, Madlib....to me they are way hotter than some of these pop producers. Timbaland sampling still man...he does got that techno sh!t but listen to those drums in the back....those are stock drums my friend. Just wait for Detox and youll see sampling is still in man....(note:im aware dre doesn't exactly sample, but he replays samples and uses records to give him ideas which is still pretty much sampling)
Trusty
I use reason and logic.
BenL said:
Uh, the ASR-10 came out around 93...OVER TEN YEARS AGO. DO the math. SP1200's came around 87-88. Where's them 4.0 skills you were bragging about. Re-read and try again.
Oh, and go here and read what I wrote just YESTERDAY about the ASR-10.
https://www.futureproducers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202231
BenL said:
I wasn't ever dissing sampling. Go to my myspace, I have a sampled beat on there (and not some overused soul sample either). You have ZERO reading and comprehension skills. None whatsoever. I was talking about how if rap music had never evolved (all music evolves...even bluegrass is different these days...to keep it fresh), it would have died off by now. Get it?
Oh, and I am glad you like underground rap music. Doesn't up cred though. It is EXACTLY like mainstream rap music in one aspect. 85% of it is GARBAGE.
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Yo Matt,
Yeah,that's right,the MPC doesn't give any warmth to the samples,I originally thought that he was only talking about vinyl,so he's off-based on that one...
And Trusty,I strongly disagree with you on the state of hiphop,95% of both underground and mainstream sucks!! Gotcha!!
hahahaha
Yeah,that's right,the MPC doesn't give any warmth to the samples,I originally thought that he was only talking about vinyl,so he's off-based on that one...
And Trusty,I strongly disagree with you on the state of hiphop,95% of both underground and mainstream sucks!! Gotcha!!
hahahaha
Uh, the ASR-10 came out around 93...OVER TEN YEARS AGO. DO the math. SP1200's came around 87-88. Where's them 4.0 skills you were bragging about. Re-read and try again.
^Trusty, what does that matter, you can still get ne of that stuff on ebay. What does the date have to do with whether or not you ever owned one and listened to the sound...I'm just wondering.
My point, which you averted by not answering the question...is that you can't deny that some pieces of hardware can give a warmth and dirty grind to em.
^Trusty, what does that matter, you can still get ne of that stuff on ebay. What does the date have to do with whether or not you ever owned one and listened to the sound...I'm just wondering.
My point, which you averted by not answering the question...is that you can't deny that some pieces of hardware can give a warmth and dirty grind to em.
A
ALIASTrP
Guest
It is a difference between hardware and software in they way sound is outputted. Now most of todays workstations are digital and all sound is digital so its basically a small computer with a processor(yes your keyboards do have processors in them) and sounds are played and heard through the output.
Now with older products older less clean converters are used which is translated into warmth and color. Saying that there is now difference between hardware and software is crazy, u can take a MiniMoog and put it beside the mini moog vst plugin (arturia), even though the plugin will sound good it will never be as warm or thick as the hardware version
Now with older products older less clean converters are used which is translated into warmth and color. Saying that there is now difference between hardware and software is crazy, u can take a MiniMoog and put it beside the mini moog vst plugin (arturia), even though the plugin will sound good it will never be as warm or thick as the hardware version
Trusty
I use reason and logic.
Try your best to keep up. I said:
And that is correct. Then you said:
Now, I do say that...for everything built within the last ten years...still with me. Your example of the ASR-1 EPSs and SP-1200's don't disqualify my point because:
Then you come back still not understanding...are you really that unable to read and comprehend?
It matters because you are failing, but still trying to disprove something I said. It isn't working for you though. The date was my point about gear. You get any of those samplers the came outin the last ten years and they are transparent as any computer soundcard. Wonder no more. There it is.
You whole point was actually unneccessary because I never denied that some pieces of hardware can give a warmth and dirty grind to them. Just not any sampler made in the last ten years or so. Learn to read pleas, and then try again later.
Get it now?
My friend had one of those. I think you might be mistaking warmth for very poor quality, people say that kind of thing about their Electribe samplers too because of the bit rates and on the bigger Electribes they have that gimmicky tube that has a back light (like the Triton Extreme)...
Trusty said:
And that is correct. Then you said:
BenL said:
Now, I do say that...for everything built within the last ten years...still with me. Your example of the ASR-1 EPSs and SP-1200's don't disqualify my point because:
Trusty said:
Then you come back still not understanding...are you really that unable to read and comprehend?
BenL said:
It matters because you are failing, but still trying to disprove something I said. It isn't working for you though. The date was my point about gear. You get any of those samplers the came outin the last ten years and they are transparent as any computer soundcard. Wonder no more. There it is.
You whole point was actually unneccessary because I never denied that some pieces of hardware can give a warmth and dirty grind to them. Just not any sampler made in the last ten years or so. Learn to read pleas, and then try again later.
Get it now?
Mattman04 said:
My friend had one of those. I think you might be mistaking warmth for very poor quality, people say that kind of thing about their Electribe samplers too because of the bit rates and on the bigger Electribes they have that gimmicky tube that has a back light (like the Triton Extreme)...
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ummmm... he did not say even one thing that relates to "software vs. hardware"...
The only point he is making is:
1. "good" sounds are better than "bad" sounds
2. "good" programming is better than "bad" programming
...and I do not there is anybody who would say that is any sort of revelation.
The only point he is making is:
1. "good" sounds are better than "bad" sounds
2. "good" programming is better than "bad" programming
...and I do not there is anybody who would say that is any sort of revelation.
Mattman04
Kit Ramsey's brother
Trusty said:My friend had one of those. I think you might be mistaking warmth for very poor quality, people say that kind of thing about their Electribe samplers too because of the bit rates and on the bigger Electribes they have that gimmicky tube that has a back light (like the Triton Extreme)...
Well then that could also be said of any old sampler with poor convertors then.
sp1200, s950, eps, etc.
I just did a quick a/b test.
at 32khz stereo sampling the sampletrak ALMOST perfectly replicated what I sampled into my echo mia.
I noticed a very slightly better frequency range in the echo version.
So most likely at 32khz the sampletrak is actually more cold than warm.
There was a very slight loss in high frequency range. wich could lead to the idea of warmth. It was more accurate than I expected though.
At 16khz the sampletrak very noticable colors the sound bringing out the mud in the sample. This is the sampling rate that's good for making gritty drums.
That's probably the case for any sampler that samples at lower bitrates.
So now I wonder what is warm?
Is there some slight eq going on with the asr samplers input?
Edit: Did another a/b test this time sampling to the zoom directly from the turntable instead of resampling the echo version into the zoom.
The Echo deffinantly captures more low frequencies.
The Zoom is boosted in the mid range.
Warmth by my deffinition is low end frequencies more so than mid range ones.
So yep your right Trusty.
There is some coloration going on with the zoom, but aparently not by capturing more low frequencies wich by the limitations of a lower bitrate/samplerate is not even possible now that I think about it.
Perhaps there are no warm old samplers? Just old samplers who's convertors color the sound?
Newer soundcards, and samplers obviously are capable of capturing a wider frequency spectrum.
I bet if you roll off some high end on a sample the perception of warmth will be there.
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I admit I have not read all the posts in this thread, but i did watch that video and a red a good handfull of the posts...
BUT...
Why are people even comparing SP-1200's to NI Battery?
Why are people comparing vintage Minimoogs to VST's?
Of course there is a difference between some hardware and some software... as well as various pieces of hardware being different from eachother, and different pieces of software being different from eachother.
B ut the video had absolutely nothing to do with that. He was comparing reason to a current model MPC...
and nothing he said related to the units themselves. He only talked about stock sounds and vinyl and sounds appropriate to a particular genre and good programming techniques.
None of that has any relation to hardware vs software.
(and, by the way, there is a difference between "low quality converters" and "converters that are good but are now older technology")
BUT...
Why are people even comparing SP-1200's to NI Battery?
Why are people comparing vintage Minimoogs to VST's?
Of course there is a difference between some hardware and some software... as well as various pieces of hardware being different from eachother, and different pieces of software being different from eachother.
B ut the video had absolutely nothing to do with that. He was comparing reason to a current model MPC...
and nothing he said related to the units themselves. He only talked about stock sounds and vinyl and sounds appropriate to a particular genre and good programming techniques.
None of that has any relation to hardware vs software.
(and, by the way, there is a difference between "low quality converters" and "converters that are good but are now older technology")
PROTator
Scientist
dvyce said:
thanks!
If someone would sample vinyl into a computer with a good AD converter and then there should be no loss. If you want the low bit crunch you might have to buy a processor. I think companies should look into making a channel strip that lets you filter vinyl or other media through old e-mu or ensoniq or akai processor... why havent they done this?
If you dont go for software you're taking one step forward but two steps back. There's a reason why the large majority of producers have computers in their studios.
PROT
well let me put my two cents in this shyt...now i got into this with that prolyfic dude..I am a FL and reason rewire dude...and now I am perfecting my MPC skills..I actually am primarily using the MPC for now to master as I already understand software...
and i am going to say it here...no one can really tell the difference...with the warmth shyt...like he said all you have to do is try harder to recreate that sound...now when he says that i will admit to the MPC gives you a fuller kick...but once you touch up a kick whether stock or sampled..it sounds the same..and when i say touch it up i mean go into a wave editor like adobe and eq it and you should also do this when you bring a kick into MPC...i remember when RZA did an episode of cribs way back and he revealed that secret to run your sample through a tube first and then sample it...now you dont have to do that anymore..you can just sample into adobe and send to the software or firewire the drums into your MPC...so problem solved....
and that whole drums arent perfect is correct...go listen to old hip and even present day versions of that sound (kanye common or 9th) that shyt is off by a little bit each time...like the first 2 or 4 bars are on point and perfect and then there are variations thereafter
and for the vinyl statement he is correct...that vinyl sound sounds better and more authentic than some cd or mp3...even when i filter out the clicks and pops its the feeling of the vinyl that sounds better...plus its much cheaper lol...vinly cost like 25 cents a pop...except for the classics what go for 20 dollars or so or even 8 dollars...
but yeah my bottomline is that full integration of software and hardware is the future...like some beats sound better on FL (i tried) than a MPC in my opinion...and vice versa...but the only thing i can say is that you have way more tools on a computer...but then all those tools can stagnate your progress whereas with an MPC you locked into that machine to complete the beat or turn it off...with my computer i can drift to lala whether its the internet or just tweaking all things in the software...
but yeah his reason beat did sound much more melodic and better...his MPC sounded like that somewhat dated sound...
and more on that vinyl topic...is that youre not going to find jewels on cd or mp3 necessarily...because for a something old to be converted to both formats it has to be known or there has to t a demand...and sometimes those old groups were one hit wonder album types and no one knows them or even cares enough to rerelease it in cd or mp3 form.....so go dig its fun for one and you can find some good shyt out there in those hole in the wall record stores
and more on that vinyl topic...is that youre not going to find jewels on cd or mp3 necessarily...because for a something old to be converted to both formats it has to be known or there has to t a demand...and sometimes those old groups were one hit wonder album types and no one knows them or even cares enough to rerelease it in cd or mp3 form.....so go dig its fun for one and you can find some good shyt out there in those hole in the wall record stores
and i am going to say it here...no one can really tell the difference...with the warmth shyt...like he said all you have to do is try harder to recreate that sound...now when he says that i will admit to the MPC gives you a fuller kick...but once you touch up a kick whether stock or sampled..it sounds the same..and when i say touch it up i mean go into a wave editor like adobe and eq it and you should also do this when you bring a kick into MPC...i remember when RZA did an episode of cribs way back and he revealed that secret to run your sample through a tube first and then sample it...now you dont have to do that anymore..you can just sample into adobe and send to the software or firewire the drums into your MPC...so problem solved....
and that whole drums arent perfect is correct...go listen to old hip and even present day versions of that sound (kanye common or 9th) that shyt is off by a little bit each time...like the first 2 or 4 bars are on point and perfect and then there are variations thereafter
and for the vinyl statement he is correct...that vinyl sound sounds better and more authentic than some cd or mp3...even when i filter out the clicks and pops its the feeling of the vinyl that sounds better...plus its much cheaper lol...vinly cost like 25 cents a pop...except for the classics what go for 20 dollars or so or even 8 dollars...
but yeah my bottomline is that full integration of software and hardware is the future...like some beats sound better on FL (i tried) than a MPC in my opinion...and vice versa...but the only thing i can say is that you have way more tools on a computer...but then all those tools can stagnate your progress whereas with an MPC you locked into that machine to complete the beat or turn it off...with my computer i can drift to lala whether its the internet or just tweaking all things in the software...
but yeah his reason beat did sound much more melodic and better...his MPC sounded like that somewhat dated sound...
and more on that vinyl topic...is that youre not going to find jewels on cd or mp3 necessarily...because for a something old to be converted to both formats it has to be known or there has to t a demand...and sometimes those old groups were one hit wonder album types and no one knows them or even cares enough to rerelease it in cd or mp3 form.....so go dig its fun for one and you can find some good shyt out there in those hole in the wall record stores
and more on that vinyl topic...is that youre not going to find jewels on cd or mp3 necessarily...because for a something old to be converted to both formats it has to be known or there has to t a demand...and sometimes those old groups were one hit wonder album types and no one knows them or even cares enough to rerelease it in cd or mp3 form.....so go dig its fun for one and you can find some good shyt out there in those hole in the wall record stores
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