Kid Rock Vs Beyonce

[KelevraOne]

Do you feel that Beyonce has any timeless songs? The first Destiny's Child album came out 17 years ago which may warrant it having enough time to have at least one timeless song in your opinion.

I, personally, do not think she does YET. Does that mean she doesn't have hits? No. Does that mean she doesn't deserve to be world famous and have woman going crazy over her? No. But I, personally, can not disagree with anything Kid Rock said in the article.

I kinda disagree that Beyonce doesn't have a timeless hit. The reason why i say kinda though is because the two songs I would put in that category haven't had enough time past to try to place it there. Crazy in Love and Single Ladies. So far Both haven't been affected by passage in time and are instantly recognized and still are immensely popular. It's been 13 years since Crazy in Love and 7 years for single ladies. Crazy in love was just remade for the 50 shades of grey movie and even in 2015 if you hit a club and single ladies comes on the place still goes crazy.

 

[yokuzin]

We are made to sing this classic with pride.....would get in trouble and have our parents go the fuuck off over this song.......people get offended if you don't respect this song in the way you've been trained to respect it........but it's just a song like Single Ladies, right? Or like the many, many other songs with meaning just as this song had a "meaning". This song symbolizes something.


And Jimi made a classic moment out of it.

All of this shit is made psychology. Beyonce will never have a classic record until she releases something that touches the hearts of "AMERICA". My point.

This is a MFING HIT!!!!


We have our classics also.......and not what someone has CHOSEN with the correctness of scientific examination of WHY the song is appropriate for America to witness as it's own. Whoomp..There it is..yall. There is nothing you can do when them "patriots" have been told by "patriots" what to listen to and give special attention to in the "urban" department. Black girls twerking were viewed as future strippers (who can blame them when yall thirsty ass fools making it rain on wax and in real life, right)...........when the "patriots" as a whole got together, it's perfectly find as long as you follow rules......and don't be too black.

 

[mwandishi]

That's the point I'm making, I'll say again, JADED.

People who can't admit "Krank Dat" by Soulja Boy was a huge hip hop hit record(didn't say timeless)won't do so because of their jaded opinion. Someone "biased" would have no choice but to agree and have to throw in the fact they still hate the record.

In order for a song to be "timeless" it has one and only one criteria to follow. Be old as hell, and still have relevance today. You can't say Stevie wonders entire discog from 1970-84 is "timeless" and the song "Thriller" is not without being wrong. Lol. Your "opinion" is lost in the example of "what is vs. what isn't".

Again, "Thriller" get's more spins in 2014 than album fillers from Stevies say..."Hotter Than Summer(Edit: Hotter than July, I wasn't walking Yet, gimme a break)" album got the year the album was released!

Beyond separation by FACT, everything else is left to opinion. So, yeah, according to every BBQ, BDay party, Family reunion I've ever been to since it's release, "Cupid Shuffle" is timeless. I never said I believed it was personally. I even went on to say I don't know the words to or who sung "Sweet Home Alabama', yet I'm well aware "Cupid Shuffle" is not a "timeless classic" anywhere in the realm of that song.

So follow me here...IF MY OPINION WAS JADED....from my experience with no numbers to back my claim, I'd say "Cupid Shuffle"(or every Stevie Wonder Album) is a timeless classic, but I don't think "Sweet Home Alabama"(or MJ's Thriller song) is......

I even used "T.R.O.Y." as an example. I know every word to that song, myself and my friends can reference so much of our lives with hip hop from that era, but while it's a "timeless hood classic", I can't even call that a "known record" in pop culture.

Again, JADED opinions make you inable to realize whether you feel the song took any work to produce or not, "The Macarena" isn't going anywhere. It's still played today at parties, clubs, on the radio(usually with a satirical twist), "Krank Dat Soulja Boy" not so much, but same bracket. You still get hammer pant references. I don't think any of that stuff is classic, but I can understand someone else thinking otherwise.

So...while I can leave it to opinion where the cut off for a timeless record is and can respect everything mentioned in this post EXCEPT "Sweet home Alabama" or "Thriller" not being "timeless classics"...you cannot tell me anything else mentioned in this thread are "timeless classics" and those 2 records are not without having a...JADED OPINION.

How can anyone not agree with that?

And to clarify, IMO, any song is a timeless classic TO YOU if you keep playing it. But in reference to what Kid Rock was talking, nothing but "Thriller" and "Sweet Home Alabama" that i've discussed in this post.

At a certain point in discussion, I think my responses have been morphed into one. I know people have different opinions, but that does not mean one is jaded.

I asked for a criteria for timeless and for the most part that has been avoided. The first part of your definition makes sense, but the relevance part is still cloudy. It seems like your saying relevance has to do with contemporary spins or whether people recognize the tune years later? Is that correct.

Man I'm a jazz fan, I know plenty of "timeless" tunes that if it was played on the radio people wouldn't recognize it. Does that make round midnight or footprints less timeless?

I think my comments about Stevie and Thriller have been misunderstood, so I will state them again. I "believe the Stevie catalog is timeless," but I know most people wont recognize girl blue if it was played on the radio. But if maybe if you played "ribbon in the sky" or "you and I" that may get more traction. I am not jaded, I was simply expressing my view. I am not confused with what I said.

In terms of thriller, I expressed my opinion in comparison to the other songs on the album. BUT .. . I can admit that it is timeless in terms of the definition you offered, and my comments about "sweet alabama' had nothing to with the song but personal preference on not singing a good old boy song

I have asked for a clear criteria, but doesn't seem to be clear. The only thing that is clear is that in order for a song to be timeless it has to been very popular at the time of the release.
I must admit earlier in this thread I equated timeless with classic, but that's not what certain posters meant.

But when you say macrena, sweet home, thriller, and purple rain are in the same class that's when I ask if its just about numbers? Because numbers seem to be the only common denominator among those songs. This is not a jaded assertion just a search for criteria.

 

[mwandishi]

I kinda disagree that Beyonce doesn't have a timeless hit. The reason why i say kinda though is because the two songs I would put in that category haven't had enough time past to try to place it there. Crazy in Love and Single Ladies. So far Both haven't been affected by passage in time and are instantly recognized and still are immensely popular. It's been 13 years since Crazy in Love and 7 years for single ladies. Crazy in love was just remade for the 50 shades of grey movie and even in 2015 if you hit a club and single ladies comes on the place still goes crazy.

This is my issue with this discussion. Much of what is called timeless or relevant today has to do with spins and sales. You can't say at this point that she doesn't have a timeless tune if u go by numbers. Of course they'll be playing single ladies 30 years from now. BUT if you say she doesn't have a song that equals the quality of purple rain, then she doesn't.

 

[yokuzin]

I never liked Purple Rain the song. Boring...........out of all songs by Prince, that boring ass song is considered something? Wow. I guess since it was the name of a movie, the name on the soundtrack, a Prince album, and also a single, and the same dead gum way they blow up shit today is how they did it then. I mean...I would choose Doves Cry.....naw...it's got to be something less "urban" right?

I do...like Sweet Home Alabama..........because of that repetitive ass guitar line. But hell.....I also love Rad Racer music also.....sheeeed...


AHHHHHHHHHHHH......this tune puts me in a place where I know everything is going to be alright.........LOVE IT! You can repo my truck.....I don't care.....

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

Do you feel that Beyonce has any timeless songs? The first Destiny's Child album came out 17 years ago which may warrant it having enough time to have at least one timeless song in your opinion.

I, personally, do not think she does YET. Does that mean she doesn't have hits? No. Does that mean she doesn't deserve to be world famous and have woman going crazy over her? No. But I, personally, can not disagree with anything Kid Rock said in the article.

I do not, but I can respect the opinion of anyone mentioning stuff like "Single Ladies(Ring On It)", "Bills Bills Bills", "Crazy In Love", or "Survivor". I don't think any of her songs withstand time well. Part of that is the trendiness of her songs. Why would anyone want to hear "Diva" in 2015? Beat is dated(because those Shondrae sample loop with snare roll everywhere joints were poppin at one point and trendy), and who refers to themselves as "Divas" these days? Next week she'll have a song about "being on Fleek" or "Thots". Nothing wrong with making trendy hits by the way. Take what you can get. I can name tons of artists without my perception of "timeless classics" with amazingly long career spans. I'm not sure I'd consider anything by Justin Timberlake a "timeless classic". N'Sync, absolutely, maybe "Summer Love" because it get's seasonal spins(summer, duh) or "cry me a river" because you can hear it randomly from time to time, I love JT's music, but can't think of anything...TIMELESS other than his N'Sync stuff. 50 Cent...nothing. Jay-Z, Nas, DMX? on the scale we're talking...nothing(in the hood, tons of stuff, but nothing comparable to "sweet home alabama". But that's the point, even kid rock falls short of "timeless classics".

IMO(just my opinion) "timeless classic's" are gonna be songs that get played today like they just debuted yesterday and still draw emotion out of fans like it's their first time hearing it on a WIDE SCALE. So Nelly's "Tip Drill" doesn't count because that stripper with the bullet wound you go see comes out to it every night, lol. I'm talking... "Great Balls Of Fire", "Celebration", "Bad", "We will Rock You", "Purple Rain", "I Want To Be Your Man", "Girls just Wanna Have Fun", "Smells Like Teen Spirit", "Midnight Train to Georgia", "Stayin Alive", "You Oughta Know", "I Just Died In Your Arms", "Don't Speak", "Born in the USA", "Gin and Juice", "Faith", "Like A Prayer/Virgin", "Walk This Way", "Hit Me Baby One More Time", "Love Hurts", "Unbreak my Heart", "I Will Always love You", "Edge of Seventeen", "Superstition", f**k it, "Macarena"(it really does still get played everywhere), I'd like to assume "Let It Go", but it's too new of a song to see how it will be accepted a decade from now.

Know what all these songs have in common? I didn't have to list one artist name, and I bet everyone on these boards knows at least 90% of what i just listed. More once the google and hear the song and say "oh yeah!".

 

[KelevraOne]

This is my issue with this discussion. Much of what is called timeless or relevant today has to do with spins and sales. You can't say at this point that she doesn't have a timeless tune if u go by numbers. Of course they'll be playing single ladies 30 years from now. BUT if you say she doesn't have a song that equals the quality of purple rain, then she doesn't.

I actually never cared for purple rain. When a dove cries is soooo much better in my opinion. I agree with Deranged in that a classic would be a song that can still elicit strong feelings from fans long after it's had it's original run. That's why I think Beyonce meets hit with Crazy in Love and Single ladies. As soon as you hear the opening horns from crazy in love. You know what song it is. You know who it is. Chicks know the dance they know to say uh oh uh oh oh oh.

@ Deranged I think Crazy in Love def fits onto your list. everyone knows crazy in love from the horns. Single ladies is still a freaking anthem with single women. To me crazy in love has had enough time. (to me the minimum is 10 years) while single ladies still has a little bit of time to go. I bet most of ya'll can't believe it's been 7 years since it's release.

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

But when you say macrena, sweet home, thriller, and purple rain are in the same class that's when I ask if its just about numbers? Because numbers seem to be the only common denominator among those songs. This is not a jaded assertion just a search for criteria.

I absolutely never said they were "the same". That's like asking me what a "supermodel" is and my reply being "Tyson Beckford, Naomi Campbell, Tyra Banks, Claudia Shaiffer, Cindi Crawford, and Bar Rafiela. Am I in any way saying all these people are built black bald head guys because one of them is?

We were discussing "timeless classics" with the already set criteria that Beyonce's catalog is the measuring stick. If the debate is which side she falls on, alot of music instantly loses eligibility. Lines were drawn before I posted, I just stuck to the already written script. I'm not gonna play dumb and come in here talking about "Muddy Waters" by Redman is a "timeless classic" because it was my jam when the reference of "Sweet Home" and "purple Rain" has been used to deter us from Beyonce.

My first response was "If Beyonce doesn't have "timeless classics" neither does Kid Rock." I've used quotes "timeless classics" the entire thread to indicate none of this was created by me, I'm just going with what we've established.

Say we said "timeless hood classics", I'd instantly bring up Geto Boyz. I'd smack someone for mentioning "sweet home" and revoke their hood pass, lol. But Geto Boyz don't have the range of fans and replay value ion a massive scale to be put next to "Sweet Home Alabama" when we're talking 'timeless classics" as a thing Beyonce's participation in is up to debate.

The "criteria" was set by the tone of the thread. I could under any other circumstance say "Beyonce has tons of "timeless classics", every thot and flamer keep her music on repeat. She has a Beyhive groupie club for crying out loud!" But once we compare to "sweet home alabama", a song with a completely different range of success, followers, and replay value, remakes, placements in movies, shows, ect, Beyonce looks small time, along with tons of others. If your song isn't huge on a worldwide scale, how will the replay value be huge on a worldwide scale?

 

[mwandishi]

I absolutely never said they were "the same".

The "criteria" was set by the tone of the thread. I could under any other circumstance say "Beyonce has tons of "timeless classics", every thot and flamer keep her music on repeat. She has a Beyhive groupie club for crying out loud!" But once we compare to "sweet home alabama", a song with a completely different range of success, followers, and replay value, remakes, placements in movies, shows, ect, Beyonce looks small time, along with tons of others. If your song isn't huge on a worldwide scale, how will the replay value be huge on a worldwide scale?

This is true, but you even talked about different levels.

This thread has lasted so long some of my response may have responding to multiple posts at one.

The tone of the thread (and therefore criteria)changed when one cat posted this:

"Even if you don't know who made the song Sweet Home Alabama (which was made 41 years ago) you cotdaym well know the song as well as the main lyrics and STILL hear it in bars all over America EVERY WEEKEND whether in the burbs or the city even if classic rock isn't your style. THAT'S A TIMELESS SONG!
Same with Purple Rain (which arguably isn't rock).
Same as Macarena (which isn't rock).
Same as I Will Always Love You (which isn't rock).
Same as Thriller (which isn't rock).
Same as Louis Armstrong's What a Wonderful World (which isn't rock)."

My response was that you can't just lump all those songs together, which lead me to focus on criteria. The point I was making is that there is more than just numbers when you say(not you personally but in general) all those songs are all timeless. My personal, non-jaded, opinion is that there are qualitative differences between those examples(they all did well). At a certain point you classify the tune as "different" or place into a specific genre like dance, pop, or jazz.

 

[deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup]

If not for the tone of the thread...say someone was to say "Beyonce has hit's, but no "timeless classics" like The Three Degrees "When Will I See You Again", we'd be having a completely different convo. "Sweet Home Alabama" sets a stage. I still refuse to google to see who made the song, no one spoil this for me. I know it's a different level of hit, but I don't listen to that B.S. Maybe that's why I can so easily bunch Macarena with it. Macarena would not be mentioned if the measuring stick was set differently.

 

[wildinout8]

This is true, but you even talked about different levels.

This thread has lasted so long some of my response may have responding to multiple posts at one.

The tone of the thread (and therefore criteria)changed when one cat posted this:

"Even if you don't know who made the song Sweet Home Alabama (which was made 41 years ago) you cotdaym well know the song as well as the main lyrics and STILL hear it in bars all over America EVERY WEEKEND whether in the burbs or the city even if classic rock isn't your style. THAT'S A TIMELESS SONG!
Same with Purple Rain (which arguably isn't rock).
Same as Macarena (which isn't rock).
Same as I Will Always Love You (which isn't rock).
Same as Thriller (which isn't rock).
Same as Louis Armstrong's What a Wonderful World (which isn't rock)."

My response was that you can't just lump all those songs together, which lead me to focus on criteria. The point I was making is that there is more than just numbers when you say(not you personally but in general) all those songs are all timeless. My personal, non-jaded, opinion is that there are qualitative differences between those examples(they all did well). At a certain point you classify the tune as "different" or place into a specific genre like dance, pop, or jazz.

I still don't know where the disconnect is and people are still confused.

"Beyoncé, to me, doesn't have a ****ing 'Purple Rain,' but she's the biggest thing on Earth. How can you be that big without at least one 'Sweet Home Alabama' or 'Old Time Rock & Roll'? - Kid Rock

BIGGEST THING ON EARTH. No one is debating that.

BUT...what we ARE debating is whether or not she has a "timeless" song to warrant her being the "biggest thing on Earth". She has hits - yes. But, so does Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Chris Brown, Justin Bieber, etc.

According to Celebrity Net Worth (take it for what it is, but many people in finance say they're pretty credible in their research and numbers) these are the following celebrities worths:

Beyonce - $450 million
Taylor Swift - $200 million
Katy Perry - $30-50 million
Chris Brown - $30 million
Lil Wayne - $140 million
Drake - $55 million
Nicki Minaj - $50 million
Justin Bieber - $200 million

No one comes into HALF of Beyonce's net worth. Is it because she has makeup and fashion endorsements? So do Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.
Is it because she does real estate? So do Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.
Is it because she does movies? So do Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.

So, you all mean to tell me it's because of the past success of Single Ladies and Put a Ring on It?

 

[mwandishi]

I still don't know where the disconnect is and people are still confused.

"Beyoncé, to me, doesn't have a ****ing 'Purple Rain,' but she's the biggest thing on Earth. How can you be that big without at least one 'Sweet Home Alabama' or 'Old Time Rock & Roll'? - Kid Rock

BIGGEST THING ON EARTH. No one is debating that.

BUT...what we ARE debating is whether or not she has a "timeless" song to warrant her being the "biggest thing on Earth". She has hits - yes. But, so does Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Chris Brown, Justin Bieber, etc.

According to Celebrity Net Worth (take it for what it is, but many people in finance say they're pretty credible in their research and numbers) these are the following celebrities worths:

Beyonce - $450 million
Taylor Swift - $200 million
Katy Perry - $30-50 million
Chris Brown - $30 million
Lil Wayne - $140 million
Drake - $55 million
Nicki Minaj - $50 million
Justin Bieber - $200 million

No one comes into HALF of Beyonce's net worth. Is it because she has makeup and fashion endorsements? So do Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.
Is it because she does real estate? So do Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.
Is it because she does movies? So do Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.

So, you all mean to tell me it's because of the past success of Single Ladies and Put a Ring on It?

Every time I try move on from this thread, someone pulls me back in.
I guess you're taking kidd's position to an extreme.

This idea that you have a "timelesss' hit to be rich or the most popular is flawed.
Okay, in terms of record sales 75 mil as a solo artists and 60 mil in the group equals a lot of money. That's not even talking about tour money (which I assume is even better).
Next, remember this is entertainment and she is pop a artist. Looks matter, and unless you are blind she is very attractive(with a big butt, since kidd says he like big tits). I don't think I would be exaggerating if I said she looks way better Nicki, Katy, or Taylor. Because she is so fly that leads to endorsement deals and movies (more cash). I'm not saying this because I like her so much, but because the are some basic components when you start talking being a big star. I mean why did Nicki get fake tits and azz? Why does Katy often show her cleavage. Ya, I know Taylor is very skinny and plain ( but she falls in the meg ryan category). I know u must know looks are part of the game and sex sells (see Madonna) in all genres. When you consider all these things and the fact that she's been in the game since the late 90s, how could not understand her worth or mass appeal?

 

[yokuzin]

BUT...what we ARE debating is whether or not she has a "timeless" song to warrant her being the "biggest thing on Earth". She has hits - yes. But, so does Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Chris Brown, Justin Bieber, etc.

You thinking to hard........why are we acting like having "one hit" means more than someone having "multiple hits"?


O.K.....we talking why Bey > Katy Perry and nem others right?....Break it down...

Destiny's Child was "HUGE" when R&B was at a high (unlike now and unlike the high that "pop music" has). Bey was already looked at as a solo artist even then...only a matter of time. Already had her OWN fanbase developing before going solo. People waiting on her to be solo. But enough about Beyonce.....back to Destiny's Child. They were HUGE!!!! I understand that R&B hasn't been HUGE IN SOO LONG that you may have forgotten........as we see these has been artist struggling on social media trying to get attention. With that said.......who that was huge "like Destiny's CHild" did ANY OF THEM ladies come up with? IDK.....they all appeared to just jump out of the blue as solo artist. Each one living off the momentum of ONLY SONGS. Should Bey be less of an artist for having more than a "pop fanbase"? The pop fanbase comes and goes........dedicated fans stand with you. Beyonce stands for something more than just music......she has a movement. To go deeper.....that movement seems to slowly go from strong "black woman" to "THOT". Katy and nem doesn't have a movement like that. Niki can't have what Bey has now due to Bey having a "strong black following" at the beginning of her career. Nikki already loses her chances with that just with her name alone.

What Bey has accomplished in her career was great timing. And now she has reached larger than life status. People associate her with what should sound good to listen to for the times (until she proves unworthy of that category). I mean this shit is plain and simple.


You can put Sweet Home Alabama in the same category as Whoomp there it is.........


And man.....You put Bey at the top at $450......Tayor Swift though....OMG...........Bey ain't got shit on Taylor or Justin....or either those numbers are not right on Bey or Tay or both....(considering the career time frame of THOSE ARTIST you picked.)

 

[wildinout8]

@Yokuzin and @mwandishi - I see both of your points and can't completely disagree with them.

...but, Bey still IMO does not have a timeless hit YET.

...and if the numbers are off I have no problem checking out a credible source you supply.

 

[yokuzin]

^^^^^^WHO DOES have a timeless classic within the last 15 years (estimate Bey career)? Any genre.

It all can be debatable compare to those "FEW" songs that were "MADE IN OUR MINDS" to be timeless. I mean we were forced to except those as timeless, a classic, mega hit....whatever we calling it.

 

[mwandishi]

@Yokuzin and @mwandishi - I see both of your points and can't completely disagree with them.

...but, Bey still IMO does not have a timeless hit YET.

...and if the numbers are off I have no problem checking out a credible source you supply.

Fair enough. Even though i don't know how u could doubt the numbers. i don't think wiki is the end all be all but Beyoncé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Robot Sunsets]

Crazy in Love was a classic tho lol lol but that was her last one and that was like almost a decade ago.

Also Beyonce isn't "curvy" she is just "tiny" with normal sized hips/thighs so it accentuates her ratios. She is like 5 foot 3 or something.

 

[KelevraOne]

Crazy in Love was a classic tho lol lol but that was her last one and that was like almost a decade ago.

Also Beyonce isn't "curvy" she is just "tiny" with normal sized hips/thighs so it accentuates her ratios. She is like 5 foot 3 or something.

She tall for a girl. She def ain't five 3

 

[Robot Sunsets]

She tall for a girl. She def ain't five 3

She's like 5'7 but she's very petite with long features but in general she is tiny even though in videos she comes across as this vivacious curvy empowering woman, she's actually very tiny and barbie-esque in the same way most skinny models are in general. She doesn't have a phat azz as much as she has an impossibly skinny waist line.

Like most people ITT said she's got a European-esque body I have seen her IRL many times before.

 

[tReHoLLa]

there are quite a few timeless hits, in the past fifteen years. but you just have to break it down by decade.

"Crazy In Love" is a timeless hit. there's no disputing it. it sounds like the times it was released. like a roarin twenties big band hip hop hit. and it's talking about a girl liking a guy and how she's crazy in love with him. jay-z was in star quarterback mode, and she was star cheerleader. that song was like the culmination of everything that had been leading up to it if you had been a fan of their music. it sounds like how you feel when you like someone and they like you back. it sounds vulnerable in how she's letting you hear how he makes her feel. you get to hear the cheerleader's perspective of having a crush, being in love, or liking someone. which comin from her was very exciting because thinking at that time, who's top 5, top 10 top whatever celebrity hit list wasn't she on at that time? and it's a feelin everyone can relate to. read her lyrics and think of it from her perspective. that's magic.

you can debate her other songs. but not that one.