HELP! How do the pro get their music to sound so presence.

U

unpro

Guest
Can any one help?

ok, I've been mixing a pop song that I produced and after the mastering it just doesn't sound as presence as the pro. When I turn on Backstreet Boys or Britiny Spears and listen to the instrumental version, you can hear the instruments being presence meaning sounding like it's there and not way back like it's all bunch up coming from a corner. What am I doing wrong? I'm using pro tools for recording and using Waves L1ultramizer + C4EQ as mastering plug ins. Can anyone give me some tips on how to make the instruments come alive and more presence? Any pros in here?
 
You should probably post your question in "Recording".

[Sub]
 
I have a couple tips, one thing mix everything on good monitors or headphones.
When you have a mixdown of the track, apply compression. All the compression settings take some tweaking, programs such as samplitude, soundforge, and cubase all have some sort of compressor. I like the compressor that comes with the "tc-native essentials" direct-x plugin package. It sounds really nice when set right.
There are other things to do to improve the presence of your mix, a lot of it just takes a good ear when manipulating the levels and eq.
 
Yeah, don't forget that you haven't been doing it long - and the "PRO's" have been doing it years - thats why it sounds so good. It wouldn't be much of a profession if anyone could do it fairly easily. It just takes time.
 
I'm not a pro but I've found that using a Spectralizer plugin adds to the presence. Also, there are some other applicable plugins like Stereo Maximizer and another one I can't think of right now that give you more headroom and allow you to manipulate the "sound space".... hope that helps
 
You should also check how you're recording it. Make sure it sounds decent through the mics first.
 
Why do you use compressors on your tracks?

Well though am not too very familiar with compressors... what i do know is that compressors are used in instruments to get a stable volume of that instrument and to avid all the transients that happen..
Why do you use it on your track on a mixdown.. how does it help your track sound more better.?.. Why do you have to use a compressor when you know that there are'nt any transients happening?
 
Why do people wear sunglasses at night?
hehe, just joking.

Here's my two cents...
hey, give it back! that's my two cents!
haha

OKAY! seriously, if u r using Pro Tools, u might have a MAC, so i will suggest tjis powerful piece of software which can really help sometimes ...

TRacks.

It's like a "Finaliser" that u put ur music thru when u have done everything else. But remember, u cant dress up dogsh1t, so take care to get the sounds phat first. Don't be afraid to record thru effects in order to later cut and paste the good bits.
 
is this...

Is this program tracks, only for macs?
Is there some link between Pro tools and macs? seems like from how you said.
thanks...:)
 
"T-Racks" is only for Macs.

Pro Tools hardware was not available for PCs until recently so when i hear Pro Tools mentioned i think of a big kicka$s system, or a G4 running a digi001. But there is definately a ProTool thing happening on pcs now.
 
Okay ... I had to stick my nose in ...

Hey ...

Being a producer of pop music myself (and VERY Max Martin-ish* at that), I know what you're trying to achieve.

(* Max produces Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, Nsync among others ...)

The much sought-after "presence" that you speak of does not come from a magic box that you can run everything through to make it sound perfect and professional. The presence comes from ... wait for it ... the MIX. You really must have a good mix and good arrangements to have presence. Let's take it from the top, shall we?

(The following is for the benefit of everyone - I'm not trying to be derogatory of your skills at all.)

In pop music, it all starts with rhythm. Actually, in almost all mainstream styles, rhythm is the key component. The vocals don't make you want to dance, the DRUMS make you want to dance. Specifically, in the case of pop music, the kick drum and snare. These two should be mixed much higher than you'd expect, the snare in particular. Listen to any Britney Spears track (I'm listening to the instrumental of "Lucky" at the moment) and you'll see what I mean.

Next, and just as important as the rhythm section (well, because it really IS the other half of the rhythm section) is the bass line. The bass line, kick drum and snare should weave a seamless groove. (If fact, most of the rest of the track is just "ear-candy" to keep the listeners attention during the breaks between vocal passages.) Try not to use biting bass (read: not a bass guitar) sounds too much, unless you're punctuating a transition in the song. Nearly all of those Swedish producers seem to use low, fretless bass type sounds during the verses. Almost no attack transients at all, but when layered on top of the kick, it really punches nicely. Go sparingly with the reverb on the bass line (none on the kick), and things will jump out a lot better.

Be careful though! Even though the low-frequency element is essential, don't mix it too loud. If your monitoring system has poor bass response, you'll often over-do the bass so that it drowns everything else out in a real-world playback medium (ie. your car or a club or your home stereo). I usually roll off the bass pretty steeply around 35Hz, as VERY few systems can actually reproduce frequencies that low. The deep bass drones you hear in a lot of hip-hop music are around 40Hz whereas the majority of "punchy" bass is in the 60-110Hz range.

Now we'll jump up the frequency spectrum just a little bit ...

To get a lot of bite to your drums, you must also have a lot of high-end sizzle. This is traditionally accomplished with hi-hats, but you can also use tambourine, shakers, triangles, and other assorted sounds that have a crisp high end - in any combination. A favourite sound in Britney's productions is a sampled breath sound - the "ha, ha, ha, ha" you hear in eighth-note divisions. Not that difficult to do, but it's a very distinctive percussive element nonetheless. My productions usually have between 5 and 8 different "auxiliary percussion" instruments. These sounds can really flesh-out a drum track.

Now ... the all important mid-range ...

The absolute key to a good pop-vocal track is ... the VOCALS. (Imagine that?) The vocals occupy the mid-range of the frequency spectrum shared by few (if any) other instruments. I mix the instruments here a little lower than you might expect to hear them. You have to make room for the vocal - unless the vocalist is awful, in which case, the mix might better be suited with way too much midrange! :p

Guitars, strings and keyboards/synths usually cohabit this frequency range between approximately 150 and about 4000Hz, with attack transients harmonics usually reaching above into the 10-15kHz range. Usually all I put in here is a string pad and the occasional acoustic guitar part. You don't need clutter during vocal passages.

That's about it for a decent mix, except for the ear-candy. Sweeten to taste.

Finally ... the most important step in turning a good mix into a great mix is final processing. Yeah, I know I'm contradicting myself, but you do need to polish things once you're done.

If you're not using a lot of compression/limiting or judicious EQ during your mix-down, you'll often have to pull the main outs down quit a bit just to avoid over-load distortion, and in the digital world, hard-clipping (for maximum speaker thrashing). So, your stereo master, let's imagine it's a .WAV/.AIF file, will likely not have all of the level that you need it to have. It will sound quiet and dead next to a "professionally mastered" mix. So how do you fix that?

Relatively easily actually. All you really need is a nice clean parametric EQ and a decent "look-ahead" compressor/limiter. With the EQ, you can make the final tonal adjustments to your mix that you deem necessary.

(For the sake of everyone's patience, I'm not going to get into EQ techniques, as there are plenty of sites that describe the ins and outs of EQ.)

The limiter does the miracle job of soft-clipping the peak transients (spikes in the wave file) that can exaggerate the dynamic range of a track immensely. By using a limiter, you can get quite a bit more volume (and presence) from your mix without sacrificing too much dynamic range. Be careful not to crank the limiter up too mush however, or you can squish your mix a little excessively, and you will achieve the "wall of sound" effect, regardless of how you mixed the track.

Another option is a great little plugin called "Loudness Maximizer" from Steinberg that boosts the volume of your mix as much as you want without clipping. It works very much like a limiter, except the controls are dead-easy. Just crank up the "Desired Gain" slider to your heart's content! Again ... use it in moderation. You can get some nasty speaker distortion (not necessarily wave distortion) if you crank it up too high.

And finally ... ("does this guy ever shut-up?")

Keep in mind that your monitoring system, the very speakers that you mix with, will inherently colour your mix (hey ... there is NO SUCH THING is a FLAT frequency response), so it's best to make several versions of your mix and put them onto one CD to play in all sorts of places. Play the CD in as many places as you can, and you'll eventually learn what is wrong with your mix. The snare might be too loud, or the bass is a little dead, or the high end isn't crisp enough ... whatever.

Use your ears, and experiment! If things don't sound right to you, get a second opinion. If things STILL don't sound right, twiddle a couple of knobs until they DO.

Mixing is SO subjective that it's ridiculous. Keep in mind that the above info is my personal opinion, and I'm not telling you that you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do any of the above. Listen carefully, do A/B comparisons of professional mixes that you want to sound like, and tweak until it's right.

Finally, a few links:

http://www.waves.com/
(Makers of L1 Ultramaximizer - a fantastic limiter, and the Q10 Equalizer. The plugins I use ... expensive but worth every penny!)

http://www.steinberg.net/
(Some great plugins here too, including the Loudness Maximizer.)

http://www.ultrafunk.com/
(For those on a budget ... Sonitus:fx is a great plugin package.)

Whew! :eek:

Regards,

-=(stu.macQ)=-

Oh ... and you can get T-Racks for Windows ...
 
i-clan said:
"T-Racks" is only for Macs.

Pro Tools hardware was not available for PCs until recently so when i hear Pro Tools mentioned i think of a big kicka$s system, or a G4 running a digi001. But there is definately a ProTool thing happening on pcs now.

TRACKS is available for windows PCs also.

The key to getting a good mix...is to make sure that you turn everything up so that is sounds well balanced and well mixed - as good as you can get it in you original mix.

then save that to a stereo track. THEN COMPRESS that to MAXIMIZE the signal levels as hot as you can get them without distortion- that is why the PROS tracks sound so much louder and have so much more presence.

They record the best possible signals to begin with ON EACH TRACK...and then mix it till it all sounds great together..

Once you have a great sound mix. balanced and that sounds great. YOU record that and then COMPRESS it (of FINALIZE it) MASTERING it to the pro levels - like on CDs and tapes.

USE A sonic MAXIMIZER or FINALIZER type plug in-
something that has a limiter and a compression built in...that also adds some eq for presence.
 
Re: Okay ... I had to stick my nose in ...

stu.macQ said:
Hey ...

Being a producer of pop music myself (and VERY Max Martin-ish* at that), I know what you're trying to achieve.


OTHER STUFF HE SAID DELETED TO SAVE SPACE- BUT ALL GOOD STUFF- READ HIS POST!!!


Whew! :eek:

Regards,

-=(stu.macQ)=-

Oh ... and you can get T-Racks for Windows ...

Ditto...
All he said..I whole heartedly agree with..and had I read his post before I did mine..I may not have posted- what I did say- other than I AGREE.

Do yo thang STU MACQ!!:cool: :cool:
 
owch, didn't know T-Racks was for PC too. oh well, live and learn. thanks to mr mac for the cool ideas on frequency ranges. excellenteh tres speciale.
 
two main reasons for the difference i am afraid.
first of all, pro recording level is +4dBu and not home/semi pro -10dBv. this equates to a difference of around 10dBv and is much more than just turning the volume up more. it carries more weight with instruments and just makes everything more.
the other reason,and i am sorry to say this, is that they dont do the work entirely on computers. if you are making a track and all your sound generations are coming from the computer then it is always going to be missing that something, it just sounds too clean and programmed. you can spot something generated originally entirely on a computer a mile off. regardless of whether it is great or not so great.
 
unpro said:
Can any one help?

. . . When I turn on Backstreet Boys or Britiny Spears and listen to the instrumental version, you can hear the instruments being presence meaning sounding like it's there and not way back like it's all bunch up coming from a corner. What am I doing wrong?

. . .comparing your sound to Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears
 
yeah, probably better to check out the mix phatness of BT - he is still kinda popular, but seriously deeper actual music cred than the aforementioned backstreet boys.
Also, Janet Jackson, has some cool work done to "All for You", if u wanna check out the pop phat mix, i heard that track sounding so good the other night, wasn't sure if it was the car stereo system i was hearing it thru, or the state i was in, but it sounded soooo goooood ...:)
 
neilwight (Member) | 5 posts | location:
06-04-2001 12:04 PM





two main reasons for the difference i am afraid.
first of all, pro recording level is +4dBu and not home/semi pro -10dBv. this equates to a difference of around 10dBv and is much more than just turning the volume up more. it carries more weight with instruments and just makes everything more.
the other reason,and i am sorry to say this, is that they dont do the work entirely on computers. if you are making a track and all your sound generations are coming from the computer then it is always going to be missing that something, it just sounds too clean and programmed. you can spot something generated originally entirely on a computer a mile off. regardless of whether it is great or not so great.

disregard that .... the +4 -10 has NOTHING to do with this issue- NOTHING. Also, if this guy has the equipment he listed, he's obviously NOT using his soundcard's GM soundset....

I'd focus on EQ and panning- separating the instruments frequency spectrums from each other, and panning them where they sit comfortably in the mix. I use a lot of low cutting EQs- on most tracks. It is weird- when the tracks are soloed they sound thin (and worse) but sound much better in the mix than before EQ. Compression is obviously also key, and it seems they use rather heavy compression on most commercial releases. Mastering the stereo mixdown won't fix these issues- but obviously mastering is also a key here.
 
re filtersweep

filtersweep, i dont want to get into an arguement with you but i thought the point of this forum was to try to share knowledge with people. surely then any comment posted should be treated as worth a thought. many poeple have different experiances and different genres require different approaches.
the +4 .. -10 level issue is a big and so often not realised problem so i just thought i would plant the idea with some people who seemed to be missing that final thing.
i own a techno label and produce aswell and have been for quite a while and this was my biggest problem when i was starting to get near to where i felt my stuff was good enough. do you have a mixer with your decks with a PFL level display. play any record and see what its at, play your tracks and see what they are at. bet its +4 and -10 respectively.
i use only hardware though, didnt find cubase quick enough or tight enough for me although stil use it for complicated arrangements. so if the sound card comment was aimed at me. i dont even need one on my music comp. i stiil use an atari. works better than any pc for me.
i am using, 808, 909, hr16 , hr16b, novation drumstation, yamaha sequencer, yamaha sampler, roland juno60 , sh101, kawai k4r, boss se50, alesis compressor, la audio line pre amp, behringer mixing desk ,. roland mastrer keyboard and occasionaly an atari 1040ste.
effects and plug ins are part of the final mix but have nothing to do with how the completed mix that you would put out is prepared.this is done after the track is essentially finished. the standard seems to be soundforge for polishing up tracks if you use a computer just as a point of note.
 
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