Hardware vs DAW(computer based)

[LevLover]

Irregardless is not a word. It's just plain old regardless. Griffin makes a point about cost, if you compare good commercial libraries and stuff. But there is still the option of freeware, barring the argument of quality, regarding freeware vs something like the Komplate 5 bundle, a computers based set up COULD come in slightly cheaper then an all outboard set up. I would roll with jlgrimes argument of most people already havin a computer layin around that they can use for music, cause face it, while most people you may know already have a computer for quickbooks, email, p0rn etc. Most people i know don't. But i stull get ur point. What i'm sayin in that respect is, how good is that computer gonna be? Especially if they brought it from walmart on sale cause it was the cheapest one around? I doubt that celeron chip with 512k (or even 1gig at best) of ram and onboard audio is gonna do a good job of multi-trackin or handlin a few synths, samplers and efx. Let alone a few audio tracks of ext instruments and vocals. All i'm sayin is, the computer based route CAN be cheaper, but not always. Depends on you, where u shop and what you get. And no, not everyone has to record to and mix on a computer. If by chance u do already happen to have a decent computer around, u have everything u need to make music. There's freeware sequencers, synths, and samplers, as well as asio4all to make that soundcard run faster, u don't even NEED a midi controller. Plenty of dudes gettin it done the point n click way. Thats all i'm sayin.
LevLove

 

[Mattman04]

u don't even NEED a midi controller. Plenty of dudes gettin it done the point n click way. Thats all i'm sayin.
LevLove

Yeah, and if your using a tracker like Renoise the computer qwerty may be more usefull than a controller in some cases.

 

[Xabiton]

Irregardless is not a word. It's just plain old regardless. Griffin makes a point about cost, if you compare good commercial libraries and stuff. But there is still the option of freeware, barring the argument of quality, regarding freeware vs something like the Komplate 5 bundle, a computers based set up COULD come in slightly cheaper then an all outboard set up. I would roll with jlgrimes argument of most people already havin a computer layin around that they can use for music, cause face it, while most people you may know already have a computer for quickbooks, email, p0rn etc. Most people i know don't. But i stull get ur point. What i'm sayin in that respect is, how good is that computer gonna be? Especially if they brought it from walmart on sale cause it was the cheapest one around? I doubt that celeron chip with 512k (or even 1gig at best) of ram and onboard audio is gonna do a good job of multi-trackin or handlin a few synths, samplers and efx. Let alone a few audio tracks of ext instruments and vocals. All i'm sayin is, the computer based route CAN be cheaper, but not always. Depends on you, where u shop and what you get. And no, not everyone has to record to and mix on a computer. If by chance u do already happen to have a decent computer around, u have everything u need to make music. There's freeware sequencers, synths, and samplers, as well as asio4all to make that soundcard run faster, u don't even NEED a midi controller. Plenty of dudes gettin it done the point n click way. Thats all i'm sayin.
LevLove

my celeron with 512mb of ram does everything i need it to just fine.

 

[Sqito]

[..]anyway, your whole statement is funny. nonsense at its best. a computer is hardware as well, not so pretty, but definately hardware.

Mine is ^^

Want to be retentive about limitations in software? Find a software sampler that actually samples. One that has a record button to capture live audio.

Directwave does that if the hosting software supports that function.

Users...DON'T use ~ more than 10% of the features of anything. So really keep it based and reality and talk about the kinds of things you

I really don't use even 0.5% of what my computer is capable of. But I surely use at least 80% of the features of the software I run on it. Not all the time.... but I know how & when to utilize them when needed. (and where to look for missing information if memory fails)

 

[Xabiton]

Ffl!!!!

 

[Sqito]

But I surely use at least 80% of the features of the software I run on it.

Ffl!!!!

Oh, it's not just FL I'm talking about if that's what you mean.

 

[The Beat Pharmacy]

Another important thing when trying to decide to go the software or hardware route is.

Do you have weak computer/Software skills? Then I would suggest going the hardware route however if you have strong computer/software skills then go the software route.

The big argument has always been what is the easier way to go both sides argue their production setup is easier or less time consuming. Both sides are correct. It depends on your technological background and how familiar you are with audio equipment

Once you get into recording and mixing, you start to see the true advantage of software. In this category software runs circles around hardware (unless you have a million dollars to invest and a lot of room). Even big studios are on software now.


As for making tracks people are slowly moving into software. In hardware, you had lots of limitations in areas such as:

1. Sampling
2. Midi editing
3. Expanding sounds.

There are some good hardware units but over all you get more with software. The really great hardware units are the ones like the mpcs and what not which can be better than software in some areas but overall looking at the big picture, software does more.


People fail to realize though you need both software and hardware. An mpc has software inside of it, so does Fantoms, ASR10s, and you name em. If you want to design synths most companies want some programming skills. The analog synths didn't have software (most of them anyway).

Conversely people who use Fruityloop and Reason need a soundcard to hear they music (hardware), a controller keyboard (hardware), Even if they don't use a controller keyboard they still need a mouse (hardware) and computer keyboard (hardware).


A physical computer itself is actually hardware, it is the intangible programs inside the computer that is the software. So in the end we all use hardware in some sort.

Wow you are really picking at peeps words. You know exactly what someone is refering to when they say hardware or software route.

dude sumed the whole debate up.

What was the debate? I guess when you start your replies off with...

People fail to realize...
Kids don't understand...
Y'all don't get it, but...
They don't know...
You miss the point...

It prepares us for the great wisdom that was missing before.

And I guess this all makes sense since you can use both a general understanding of hardware as anything with physical weight measurable in kgs and software in 1s and 0s. In this way a mouse and keyboard is considered Hardware. And hardware as an MPC and software as GURU.
Then draw a solid line and assume EVERYONE that uses Reaper ONLY uses VSTs for sounds. And anyone with a Korg M3 doesn't have a computer.

There's a big difference between using a hardware based sequencer and a software based sequencer. A softsampler that...doesn't sample and an actual hardware sampler. A 100 gig library of orchestra samples and an orchestra soundbank on a ROMpler.

Your great summary IS the reason we've been discussing COST since people quote the software routes' cost with just the box of Sonar/Cubase. Again, all these hardware companies have pieces that weighs in at a grand that samples, plays back sounds, sequences etc...

Want to be retentive about limitations in software? Find a software sampler that actually samples. One that has a record button to capture live audio. Better hit google for that.

So the bar is a thousand bucks. Find your software and DAW and whatever other contraptions you need to make a track and it's even.
Spec that out with costs.

Why? Because COST keeps coming up as an advantage and I say it isn't so.

As far as MPCs go and the rest of all these other conceptual advantages and number-of-features lists and imagined limitations-

Users...DON'T use ~ more than 10% of the features of anything. So really keep it based and reality and talk about the kinds of things you
actually need to do/use to make a piece of music. When you think that way- suddenly you DON'T have limitations. Never did.

According to this great fantasy- all software users should be making super-dope-incredible-unheard of sounding-monster hits- with tons of innovative and new and wondrous sounds and sequences from all this limitless hype and talk. And dudes with vintage/expensive/souped up workstations should be right next to them. Dudes with deep pockets and/or access to cracked toys should be WAAAAYYYY ahead of the curve from all these imagined limitations imposed on the regular population. Funny how the new guys sound like beginners and the people with developed skill, creativity and talent are doing just fine irregardless of how or what they work with/on.

"Music production is the relationship between the creativity of the artist and the craftsmanship he is able to employ through the mastery of his tools."

That's a summary and a true definition because I realize it's not the thousands of sounds on my hard drive/ROM that count- it's the ones I actually choose to place in my track.

It's not what my sequencer can do that counts- it's what I choose to do with my sequencer and the performance it's meant to capture.

It's not what price I pay for my set up- it's about what price I'm willing to pay in time and effort to achieve my production ends.

That was perfectly said cosign.

 

[jlgrimes11]

For a DAW, I don't see why you would want hardware (unless you are field recording).


Software will give you more tracks, plug-ins, better options for expanding your setup (changing sound cards, software programs, hard drives etc).

True a good software package is not cheap though (You need a good computer, programs for the computer, sound card, speakers, mixer would be nice as well as microphones, workspace). But to get the same hardware setup would be very expensive as well (extremely expensive if you opt vintage compressors, 10 reverb units etc).

There are software programs now that actually sample like the EMU proteus X, Live samples as well and good.

I'm not saying the grass is all green in software land. Some hardware units are known for their legendary interfaces like the MPC series sequencers but at the same time other units were known for horrible interfaces like the Yamaha DX7.

Same is true for software, some of the interfaces are horrible (actually a lot of them), but at the same time software does plenty of time saving things like being able to save your whole beat with total recall settings. An mpc system with multiple keyboards can't do this. I remember actually having a sense of dread when I had to save some beats on hardware. On most software stuff I can just press save.

But hardware also has cool easy to get to sounds. Having thousands of sounds can be a curse, but in the end I'm getting better drum sounds in software.

As of 2008 I wouldn't even recommend hardware to beginners.

I'd start off in software then add a few hardware pieces like a good analog synth and maybe a triton, motif, or fantom and that's about it.

 

[Xabiton]

Oh, it's not just FL I'm talking about if that's what you mean.

im just bullsh*ttin

For a DAW, I don't see why you would want hardware (unless you are field recording).


Software will give you more tracks, plug-ins, better options for expanding your setup (changing sound cards, software programs, hard drives etc).

True a good software package is not cheap though (You need a good computer, programs for the computer, sound card, speakers, mixer would be nice as well as microphones, workspace). But to get the same hardware setup would be very expensive as well (extremely expensive if you opt vintage compressors, 10 reverb units etc).

There are software programs now that actually sample like the EMU proteus X, Live samples as well and good.

I'm not saying the grass is all green in software land. Some hardware units are known for their legendary interfaces like the MPC series sequencers but at the same time other units were known for horrible interfaces like the Yamaha DX7.

Same is true for software, some of the interfaces are horrible (actually a lot of them), but at the same time software does plenty of time saving things like being able to save your whole beat with total recall settings. An mpc system with multiple keyboards can't do this. I remember actually having a sense of dread when I had to save some beats on hardware. On most software stuff I can just press save.

But hardware also has cool easy to get to sounds. Having thousands of sounds can be a curse, but in the end I'm getting better drum sounds in software.

As of 2008 I wouldn't even recommend hardware to beginners.

I'd start off in software then add a few hardware pieces like a good analog synth and maybe a triton, motif, or fantom and that's about it.

whats odd is would recommend hardware for beginners for the simple fact that hardware is very simplified. Especially if u only have one piece of gear. If u r a newb and all you have is a fantom you will learn your fantom inside and out before u touch a computer and most would be happy with that. Software users for the most part for some reason never seem to be truly satisfied

 

[jlgrimes11]

im just bullsh*ttin


whats odd is would recommend hardware for beginners for the simple fact that hardware is very simplified. Especially if u only have one piece of gear. If u r a newb and all you have is a fantom you will learn your fantom inside and out before u touch a computer and most would be happy with that. Software users for the most part for some reason never seem to be truly satisfied

Probably true if you are just making beats. On simpler setups, you really learn your sound and functions. But most software users get into recording and mixing as well and that's the area hardware kind of suffers. It is getting better on newer stuff though. And in the beginning of the post they were asking about DAWs and when someone says DAW, I'm assuming they want to record and mix too.

When someone says sequencer, I'm assuming they want to make beats and compose.

And like I said some software interfaces suffers but the rate they improve their stuff is miles ahead of hardware but it will always cost you though a couple hundred bucks to upgrade.

Hardware is not always simpler either. I started out on a computer using a program call Trax (It was sequencing hardware though, Roland XP10 and Alesis QS6 and Boss DR 660). It was one of the simplest sequencers I ever used and in those times I would make like 6-10 beats a day. But the computer started acting funny (timing got erratic) and I went hardware (Roland XP50).

The hardware sequencer was more difficult to use and actually more complex. My productivity went down some until I got the mpc, which had about the best sequencing interface I've ever worked with (except for midi editing and saving songs). I have a wide variety of gear now hardware and software (Korg Triton Extreme, Roland Fantom X, Kurzweil K2600, sold my mpc 2000, but my studio has a mpc 3000, and mpc 1000 and at one time we had a mpc 4000 which was amazing). But when it comes down to working on a project I end up using a computer program like Live, Sonar, or Reason. And anyways I usually end up pulling sounds from a keyboard or module for some things (which has became less and less over time. when I started this setup back in 2003, I used to use softsynths sparingly and hardware a lot, now it is the other way around).

Also when you acquire a lot of hardware gear you end up needing software to control it all efficiently because software has multi port midi interfaces with like 8 ins and outs where the mpc only had 4 and software is expandable so you can really get all the midi ports you need.

I would recommend a program like Reason or Fruityloops for a beginner who just want to make beats because they are fairly inexpensive and then get them into a nice DAW like Live, Sonar, Cubase and then probably get them into some hardware to complement their sounds.

Fruityloops is about the cheapest way to start making beats and probably got the best bang for buck for anything out there. If a person decides they don't want to make beats anymore fine only a small amount of money spent, but if I wouldn't recommend a Fantom G6 for a beginner (unless they just hated computers or something and was willing to spend a lot of money.)

 

[kb420]

Very well said jlgirmes11.

I concur!

 

[SmooveMode]

Thanks JLGrimes,

I will need to record vocals, guitars and possibly and wind instruments (trumpets, Sax). I do enjoy reason because it's very intuitive. How hard is it to do all the sequencing in Reason and then rewire it to something like sonar? I found it easy to rewire sounds from Reason but I have no idea how to rewire sequencing.

I took me all night. But I was able to resolve my sound issues with Sonar. My buffer settings was way too aggressive. My next purchase will obviously be an good audio interface. I'm also going to replace my Axiom 25 with a 49 or 61 note controller.

 

[Xabiton]

Probably true if you are just making beats. On simpler setups, you really learn your sound and functions. But most software users get into recording and mixing as well and that's the area hardware kind of suffers. It is getting better on newer stuff though. And in the beginning of the post they were asking about DAWs and when someone says DAW, I'm assuming they want to record and mix too.

When someone says sequencer, I'm assuming they want to make beats and compose.

And like I said some software interfaces suffers but the rate they improve their stuff is miles ahead of hardware but it will always cost you though a couple hundred bucks to upgrade.

Hardware is not always simpler either. I started out on a computer using a program call Trax (It was sequencing hardware though, Roland XP10 and Alesis QS6 and Boss DR 660). It was one of the simplest sequencers I ever used and in those times I would make like 6-10 beats a day. But the computer started acting funny (timing got erratic) and I went hardware (Roland XP50).

The hardware sequencer was more difficult to use and actually more complex. My productivity went down some until I got the mpc, which had about the best sequencing interface I've ever worked with (except for midi editing and saving songs). I have a wide variety of gear now hardware and software (Korg Triton Extreme, Roland Fantom X, Kurzweil K2600, sold my mpc 2000, but my studio has a mpc 3000, and mpc 1000 and at one time we had a mpc 4000 which was amazing). But when it comes down to working on a project I end up using a computer program like Live, Sonar, or Reason. And anyways I usually end up pulling sounds from a keyboard or module for some things (which has became less and less over time. when I started this setup back in 2003, I used to use softsynths sparingly and hardware a lot, now it is the other way around).

Also when you acquire a lot of hardware gear you end up needing software to control it all efficiently because software has multi port midi interfaces with like 8 ins and outs where the mpc only had 4 and software is expandable so you can really get all the midi ports you need.

I would recommend a program like Reason or Fruityloops for a beginner who just want to make beats because they are fairly inexpensive and then get them into a nice DAW like Live, Sonar, Cubase and then probably get them into some hardware to complement their sounds.

Fruityloops is about the cheapest way to start making beats and probably got the best bang for buck for anything out there. If a person decides they don't want to make beats anymore fine only a small amount of money spent, but if I wouldn't recommend a Fantom G6 for a beginner (unless they just hated computers or something and was willing to spend a lot of money.)

I get what u r saying. Well outside of needng software to control a ton of hardware and needing midi interfaces why not just daisy chain them via midi? But lets be real about it yea Fruity Loops is cheap but most people think they need more than they do. You can get into making music on hardware for the same price as fruity loops if you do your research and a piece of gear is only as complex as your mind allows it to be. This is why a lot of people jump from fruity loops and say reason is too hard. Its not hard ur head just ain't ready for it. But u could get your hands on a roland w30 for around $100-$250. I bought the original eps for $300 fully expanded. You could get the 16 for the same price if u look hard enough. The mpc 2000 could go for $400. And my most expensive piece of hardware in my setup excluding midi controllers was $150. So while I understand what you are saying I simply disagree. You just have to find good deals nowadays.

Thanks JLGrimes,

I will need to record vocals, guitars and possibly and wind instruments (trumpets, Sax). I do enjoy reason because it's very intuitive. How hard is it to do all the sequencing in Reason and then rewire it to something like sonar? I found it easy to rewire sounds from Reason but I have no idea how to rewire sequencing.

I took me all night. But I was able to resolve my sound issues with Sonar. My buffer settings was way too aggressive. My next purchase will obviously be an good audio interface. I'm also going to replace my Axiom 25 with a 49 or 61 note controller.

why not just sequence it all in sonar?

 

[SmooveMode]

Wassup X? Reason is easier work for me. But, I am trying to feel SONAR.
In reference to the hardware thing...You're correct about the equipment pricing. But, that's some classic gear! LOL I used to play with that stuff back in the day and I'm not exactly a spring chicken. I have to admit, I made some cool beats on that gear, back in the day. But, This new software ...it sounds cleaner and allows a small timer more possibilities.

 

[Xabiton]

In all honesty Sonar will offer u more as far as midi options, sequencing, and options. To take something because its initially easier is just jumpng the gun entrirely. Take some time to learn adn get comfortable with whatever u use. But I will tell u as a Sonar/Reason user that rewiring Sonar into reason instead of sequencing in reason made my life a lot easier. As far as classic gear to be honest I prefer the sound of classic gear. A lot of these clean instruments especially drums make me sick to my stomach. I can handle a clean string or piano but I like my drums to be lofi

 

[kb420]

I'm as nostalgic as the next person, but vintage gear is a funny thing. It basically just doesn't stand up to the state of the art.

Only true analog, and maybe 12 bit digital samplers (s900, sp1200, etc) are really worthwhile. Everything else.............

I don't know.

12 bit samplers are nice if you want that vintage sampled sound for Hip Hop, but it ain't doing you much good if you want to make a clean r-n-b track. It's ok, but it won't compete with current gear, software or hardware. Slow loading times. Limited sample memory. Hard to find service parts.

 

[Xabiton]

for me its not really nostalga its just that i dislike how a lot of this new stuff sounds. I mention drums because I like grit in my drums. These ultra clean sterile ass 808 claps make me sick. Btw why don't u ever get on msn anymore Kb? U just went mia one day lol

 

[SmooveMode]

X, I think you're right about SONAR.

Things are not always easy to learn, in the beginning. I have realised that you cannot compare SONAR to Ableton Live for the simple fact they both have their "specialty". I may even end up using both as KB does.

Ableton- resource friendly, cool for live gigs, great writing tool, very intuitive. Best choice for DJs, Hip Hop and club performers. The ability to play through a laptop sound card.

SONAR- Strictly a studio tool, needs a rocket ship(loaded pc) to run it properly, intricate, cross genre sound set( rock, soul, hip hop, country, etc). A good aduio interface HIGHLY recommended or it crashes a lot(just crashed on me now). I know it's not SONAR's fault, it's just greedy.

Ableton live is the better when it comes to doing both mobile and studio DAW.

SONAR is just to resource greedy to take mobile. If you're strictly a rap or hip hop producer, I just don't see any need for this DAW. You could use it, but why. Too bulky.

As for other genre's it's almost manditory. Soul, Rock, Opera, Jazz, Classical...It's gotta be SONAR.

Ableton- Hip Hop/House/Club soundset(from what I have heard)

SONAR- Open sound set ( more acoustic presets/samples

My laptop is a core 2 duo @2GHZ.

Ableton live...no crashes

SONAR...6 crashes.

In SONAR...what does it mean when it says..."DROPOUT"( in red). When you press play and nothing happens? Is that a buffer thing?

 

[kb420]

That's probably got more to do with you soundcard than anything. You have a better cpu than I do, but I don't have dropouts. What drivers are you using? I use ASIO.

 

[Xabiton]

X, I think you're right about SONAR.

Things are not always easy to learn, in the beginning. I have realised that you cannot compare SONAR to Ableton Live for the simple fact they both have their "specialty". I may even end up using both as KB does.

Ableton- resource friendly, cool for live gigs, great writing tool, very intuitive. Best choice for DJs, Hip Hop and club performers. The ability to play through a laptop sound card.

SONAR- Strictly a studio tool, needs a rocket ship(loaded pc) to run it properly, intricate, cross genre sound set( rock, soul, hip hop, country, etc). A good aduio interface HIGHLY recommended or it crashes a lot(just crashed on me now). I know it's not SONAR's fault, it's just greedy.

Ableton live is the better when it comes to doing both mobile and studio DAW.

SONAR is just to resource greedy to take mobile. If you're strictly a rap or hip hop producer, I just don't see any need for this DAW. You could use it, but why. Too bulky.

As for other genre's it's almost manditory. Soul, Rock, Opera, Jazz, Classical...It's gotta be SONAR.

Ableton- Hip Hop/House/Club soundset(from what I have heard)

SONAR- Open sound set ( more acoustic presets/samples

My laptop is a core 2 duo @2GHZ.

Ableton live...no crashes

SONAR...6 crashes.

In SONAR...what does it mean when it says..."DROPOUT"( in red). When you press play and nothing happens? Is that a buffer thing?

there should be a pop up that comes up I press cancel and then play again and everything is back to normal. I use Sonar Home Studio 4 it takes up way less resources and is really a straight sequencing/tracker/mixer. I don't see the purpose in paying all of that extra money for unlmited tracks (I rarely go beyond 20-30 tracks and that is with music and vocals) and this version offers 64 audio and unlimited midi. I run on a celeron d processor at 2.67ghz with 512mb of ram. Something is wrong with my mother board tho I tried to run 1.5 gigs and now the slot that I put the 1 gig stick in doesn't work. But I used to get a lot less drop outs and freezes on 1 gig. Ill replace it eventually but seriously I am going to tell you the same thing that I did in the other thread. You don't need everything you are looking at. What are you're goals and waht kind of music do you make? I do hip hop mostly some r&b and some pop records if the situation comes up. I have yet to go beyond the 64 audio tracks in 2.5 years that I have had this daw.