Does hard work really pay off or is talent the only winner?

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I consider myself a talented musician but experience has taught me putting hard work in pays off. It's all well and good being talented, but people have to know you exist. And luck plays a part, too. :)
 
I've heard a part of Joel Osteen speach. It was about focusing on your talents, finding your place on earth. He said something very interesting, that let's say there is scale from 1 to 10 - 1 being almost none (skill level at something) 5 being average, 10 being superior. Through hard work we can raise are skill lvl only by 2 or 3 in that scale. So let's imagine someone is naturally really poor singer - 2 out of 10 in that scale. He can train every day for years and still he will be able to raise his skill level to 4 or a 5. So he can go from poor to average. That's why we need to focus on our natural talents, becouse if we are above average from the begining, let's say 7 out of 10 we can raise it to a 10 by working hard. I hope you get the idea what I'm trying to say. To sum up - hard work beats talent, but hard work without talent isn't allways going to pay off.

@EmmaDiva - sure, luck plays a part, BUT - I like to say that luck is for losers. If you wanna rely on luck you're just losers. If we want to be succesfull in whatever we do we should be confident about our self. In my opinion the right attitude is - I don't need luck to succeed, but If luck comes in my way I will sure as hell take full advantage of it.

Sorry for all the typos, etc.
 
gbbart said:
I've heard a part of Joel Osteen speach. It was about focusing on your talents, finding your place on earth. He said something very interesting, that let's say there is scale from 1 to 10 - 1 being almost none (skill level at something) 5 being average, 10 being superior. Through hard work we can raise are skill lvl only by 2 or 3 in that scale. So let's imagine someone is naturally really poor singer - 2 out of 10 in that scale. He can train every day for years and still he will be able to raise his skill level to 4 or a 5. So he can go from poor to average. That's why we need to focus on our natural talents, becouse if we are above average from the begining, let's say 7 out of 10 we can raise it to a 10 by working hard. I hope you get the idea what I'm trying to say. To sum up - hard work beats talent, but hard work without talent isn't allways going to pay off.

@EmmaDiva - sure, luck plays a part, BUT - I like to say that luck is for losers. If you wanna rely on luck you're just losers. If we want to be succesfull in whatever we do we should be confident about our self. In my opinion the right attitude is - I don't need luck to succeed, but If luck comes in my way I will sure as hell take full advantage of it.

Sorry for all the typos, etc.
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Yeah, luck only plays a small part and you have to give it a vista in which to operate, so to speak. You brought up a good point about attitude, it makes the world of difference. I do think skill isn't as important in some genres as others; one of my jobs is to 'ghost-sing' for well-known artists in the studio to thicken their voice, not just on the backing vocal tracks.
 
It has to be hard work. if you think about it its all about creating brain cells. and its how much work you put into that. hence practice makes perfect. if you dont put the practice in i.e hard work then you will never become perfect at it. i.e gain talent.
 
Erb-Daze said:
It has to be hard work. if you think about it its all about creating brain cells. and its how much work you put into that. hence practice makes perfect. if you dont put the practice in i.e hard work then you will never become perfect at it. i.e gain talent.
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I disagree, imo you can't gain talent. You have some talent's from the start, some of them are hidden and you will never know about them, becouse there's to many things in the world to try them all out. On the other hand, when you try something new and all of a sudden it turns out that you're learning faster then others, it's easier to you than to your friends and stuff like that. Great example is sport - i bet that most of us can train our asses off, and we will never be able to run as fast and jump as high as athletes we can watch on TV, becouse they have predispositions to do this, and we - not necessary. It might be harsh, but it's the same deal with everything else, like music. We can do it for years, be way above average, but we still won't be able to beat people who work as hard as we, but have more natural predispositions to do this.

It's just my opinion, I might be wrong.
Sorry for all the typos, etc.
 
and here we go back to page 1 where the definitions were poor to begin with -

Educational definitions of talent and gift are at odds with what the public thinks they should be, however, a little thinking and reflecting shows that the educational definitions are actually a fairer reflection of the reality:

Gift: an innate ability or predisposition towards being good at something

Talent: the result of practice and application in honing a gift, however small or large, into something productive

so, yes you can work at increasing your talent and skill (your overall level of accomplishment) - you cannot work at increasing your gift (your underlying ability)
 
bandcoach said:
and here we go back to page 1 where the definitions were poor to begin with -

Educational definitions of talent and gift are at odds with what the public thinks they should be, however, a little thinking and reflecting shows that the educational definitions are actually a fairer reflection of the reality:

Gift: an innate ability or predisposition towards being good at something

Talent: the result of practice and application in honing a gift, however small or large, into something productive

so, yes you can work at increasing your talent and skill (your overall level of accomplishment) - you cannot work at increasing your gift (your underlying ability)
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What kind of dictionary did you take this from? Becouse i checked in a few and everywhere word 'talent' was explained as NATURAL ability. More than that, words 'talent' and 'gift' was described as synonyms.
 
I am using standard education definitions where gift is the innate ability and talent is the result of working to improve that gift - I am a teacher by training and have used these basic definitions fro more than 30 years.

Your point about the dictionaries that you consulted is a direct reflection of my initial statement that the general usage is confused and interchangeable: to meaningfully discuss this topic we need to distinguish the two terms as I do in my first paragraph - otherwise the phrase Gifted and Talented as in school based acceleration/enrichment programs are meaningless....

For the purposes of our discussion it is enough to make the distinction saying gift/talent and hard work, but it is still confusing and messy from an educational standpoint....
 
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Addendum to @EmmaDiva and @gbbart re: luck - it's not ONLY luck that occurs out of your control. It is imperative that you actively seek out opportunities, to increase the likelihood of luck befalling you.
 
I don't get it - You are using standard education definitions? Then why o why your 'education definition' of talent is different than for example MacMillan dictionary, or Oxford dictionary, where you can find exactly, that talent is natural ability.
 
I don't understand why there is debate over semantics, when there are still discrepancies among the scientific community regarding whether "gift" is innate.
 
If we're talking nature VS nurture then as far as I'm concerned the person who picks up a guitar, a keyboard, a pair of drumsticks or masters his first beat with flying colours in the first 30minutes of ever trying doesn't scare me or put me down in any way.

Regardless of someone's 'natural' ability if they don't put in hours, days, weeks and years of practise into developing that ability then they will eventually die on that same level they started off at, no matter how impressive it was.
It's when that is sat on their arse boasting about how quickly they learnt to play that all the hard workers who might have been 100% terrible when they first started slowly overtake that other person through dedication to what it is they love.

It's what I've seen for years and it's definitely what I live by.
Making mistakes all day every day is fine by me so long as they're new ones each time I'm heading in the right direction.
 
I guess we can agree to disagree.
Of course having talents does not mean that your alfa&omega of everything like that, you have to develop your talent.
I think the best way to sum it all up (from me at least) will be simply that:
Talent without hard work wont lead you anywhere, hard work beats talent, but only way to be really succesfull is to combine the two. That's my opinion, don't get me wrong, and feel free to disagree.

I'd like to apologize for every typo, and other 'writing errors' in this conversation, I'm still learning my English.
 
Yes.

Er... I mean no.

Wait... I mean yes.

Seriously, you're reading perspectives of people who are mostly unqualified to give accurate responses. You'll just end up agreeing with whoever's side you're leaning towards. My answer really shouldn't sway your viewpoint. This isn't the type of thing you should ask on a forum.

Besides that, the OP has opened the door to some deep philosophical and scientific questions, each one alone being an intense debate subject. How does a person recognize his gifts? Does he try everything possible under the sun, just to know what he's good at? Do healthy individuals have the same capabilities as one another at birth? Is there a limit to the amount of information a person can learn? If there is, will a human ever meet that limit in his lifetime?

P.S. Here's the secret:
The secret to becoming great is experiencing each of your flaws in the same way that others do. When someone criticizes you, agree with them. Don't just tell them "I agree", but actually feel yourself agreeing with them. Your "Ego" shields you from a blow to your sense of importance, but in doing so, it also shields you from the realization that you need to improve. When someone says "your drum patterns suck", or "your mixing is off", don't dismiss them as "haters". The key is here is that you need to really feel it. You must not simply accept it as true -- you must feel that it is true, and experience each of the sensations that arise from that feeling.
You can't just work on a logical level of acceptance by saying, "Yeah, I suppose that's probably correct, being that I'm rather new and I don't quite comprehend exactly what I'm doing at the moment".
You need to work on an emotional level by saying, "My mixing is off? This feels horrible... I've got this deep sense of rejection... what can I do to remedy this feeling?" You really need to allow the pain of rejection to seep deep under your skin to the point when it's stabbing you in the heart.
When you can deeply sense the pleasure you'd feel by reaching your goals while at the same time feeling the pain of existing in your current state, you might be surprised what you can accomplish with the inspired, motivated mindset which will develop.
Many people misunderstand what it means to have a positive mindset. Having a positive mindset doesn't mean that you think you're the sh#t. It means that you believe that you have ample potential to change for the better, and that you can truly realize this potential. The phrases "I am a horrible producer" and "I am going to be one of the world's best producers" can coexist in your mind simultaneously.
Apathetic people wonder "if" things can be done. Motivated people wonder "how".

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
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Bandcoach wasn't at all wrong about the definitions being adopted as a standard within the education system in which he works and he was also quite right to point out that those standard definitions differ from the other standard definitions......unfortunately it's something that happens all too often in science, where you have guy's like Lawrence Krauss saying that the Universe came from nothing while also seeking to redefine the meaning of nothing which just confuses the hell out of everyone.

But I think we all know what we are talking about here......freaks vs everyone else.

What's really important though is looking at creativity as opposed to mere virtuosity because without creativity your ability to play Mozart is no more impressive than a mindless robot programed to play the exact same thing.
 
All definitions aside.

A guy with natural ability that never tries to improve can still have quality that exceeds a guy who has worked everyday of his life at improving but falls short. People don't want to believe that when they lack natural ability to begin with and hope for that light at the end of the tunnel. Best analogy is that Superman has been superman since birth. As hard as Batman trains, he will NEVER have any of Superman's abilities.

With that said, if Superman never get's out of bed, and Batman is out 24/7 patrolling, he's having more of an impact. Still doesn't change the fact Superman can do more for the world in minutes than Batman can do in a lifetime. Harsh reality.

But with all that said, it's better to be Batman patrolling 24/7 than Superman never getting out of bed. :cheers:
 
deRaNged 4 Phuk'dup said:
[...] A guy with natural ability that never tries to improve can still have quality that exceeds a guy who has worked everyday of his life at improving but falls short [...]
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I believe that deep down, this is what your ego makes you want to believe, regardless of how true it is. It's easier to explain away your current inadequacies by telling yourself, "That other guy was BORN to do this". It makes it easier to convince yourself that you've tried as hard as you can, when in reality you may be fairly lazy and apathetic.

Aside from fairly broad differences between people that make them obviously more suited for particular tasks (i.e., longer fingers) and absence of mental retardation (i.e., Down Syndrome), I'm not so certain that the innate potential from one person to the next is really all that different. I believe the environment you're exposed to (and in turn, the environment you choose to expose yourself to) can make a profound difference in your results.

YMMV.

-Ki
Salem Beats
 
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The only perspective I have is shaped by my natural ability and I can't say with absolute certainty that my natural ability gives me a "creative" advantage over those without the same ability, like obviously I can play by ear and therefore play what's in my head but that doesn't mean it's the only road to creativity.
 
Salem Beats said:
I believe that deep down, this is what your ego makes you want to believe, regardless of how true it is. It's easier to explain away your current inadequacies by telling yourself, "That other guy was BORN to do this". It makes it easier to convince yourself that you've tried as hard as you can, when in reality you may be fairly lazy and apathetic.

Aside from fairly broad differences between people that make them obviously more suited for particular tasks (i.e., longer fingers) and absence of mental retardation (i.e., Down Syndrome), I'm not so certain that the innate potential from one person to the next is really all that different. I believe the environment you're exposed to (and in turn, the environment you choose to expose yourself to) can make a profound difference in your results.

YMMV.

-Ki
Salem Beats
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You got me pegged, lol. Actually the total opposite.

I can draw better than most people I know. Designed tattoos for one of the biggest shops in Raleigh NC(Savage and Heads off Hillsborough St) at 15, to this day can barely draw a line in Photoshop and have never been to school to do anything with my talent because I didn't have the work ethic. Still can draw a pic identical to what I'm looking at or out of thin air that looks like a work of art in under 5 mins to this day, just never did anything with it. Never even learned to use a paintbrush, just pencils and pens. Irony is, I'm better at drawing than I'll ever be at music.

I've been given chance after chance at record deals since my teens, placement opportunities, ect. At one point when people contacted me, I'd post info directly here for others because I knew I was too busy drinking, smoking, and getting by to apply myself and meet deadlines for submissions. Again, the talent to be recognized for my work...but no work ethic.

I've missed numerous opportunities by simply not answering my phone.

I've signed alot of contracts without ever reading them and just said "f**k it". I've been signed to too many "deals" people up here would consider lifetime opportunities. I sat in Timbaland's stdio a few times, was in there and just decided not to waste time and gas traveling to Norfolk(nottz spot)and VA beach to try to get on tracks. Irony is others around me(too many to count)have gone on to achieve goals that have gained them noteriety, yet their bank account still looks like mine because that quick major check isn't any better than 2 or 3 underground ones.

I was hooked up with an audition for a seat in the string section of the San Diego Orchestra(yeah, i play Violin by ear too), they were amazed by how well i performed and said that if I took the time to learn the fundamentals they felt I could get down by their next scheduled performance I may be granted a spot. To this day I can't read a lick of music and still just 'wing it'. Never called back after theyt called me a couple times to check on my progress.

Anyone who does work hard at this and knows me is disappointed how I let all my natural talent dwindle away while they sweat day in and night for the opportunities I've blown. After all that work, i can still sample a loop, throw a few B.S. chords over it, give it a good mix, and get a better end result product the 1-4 times out of a month I sit down to make a track than they get with their 5 beat a day work ethic.

Ever think I know because I'm the walking truth?


That's not saying I'm good, I'm far from it. Just saying I've seen people work hard for years to always come up short to guys like me because they'll always be that bad. Sad truth.

Maybe you should take a step back and rather than analyzing me, figure out why it makes you more comfortable to think it's that easy to figure my motives out?

If i dedicate myself, I can land a "placement" tomorrow. I do it everytime I put forth the smallest amount of effort. Dudes around me working 'make moves" daily and try to include me and I brush them off. I'm not getting out of bed on time to make any phonecalls and network. Honestly, lol.

Not trying to sound like a dick, i'm just really that much of one. :cheers:


EDIT: Overstressing, not bragging, I'm nobody and never will be. In no way does anything I just said indicate success or that I'm in any way better than anyone. If anything it indicates I'm a waste of f**king space.
 
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