KonKossKang
Ozagas
I'm not a producer lol don't worry, I do not take myself seriously.Just a gamer with a synth and sound design addiction who makes little beats now and then.
However I do envy that one fella who got tekken to work with his piano.
Is using REAL instruments in your production the G.O.A.T.?
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I'm not a producer lol don't worry, I do not take myself seriously.Just a gamer with a synth and sound design addiction who makes little beats now and then.
However I do envy that one fella who got tekken to work with his piano.
Okay, and that's cool brah.
But please tell me you see the advantages of playing a musical instrument, in the world of music production.
Psalm
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Ok to clear up my opinion, I see nothing wrong with learning an instrument or multiple instruments and implementing them into one of your tracks or all of them. I have no problem with that, the thing I disagree with you on is that you have a problem with people who don't do that, which I think is wrong. I believe you can make good music without a real instrument or without much music theory knowledge.
Timbaland and Pharrell have had heaps of songs using real instruments and also heaps that haven't used any, that doesn't mean the songs made using only VSTs were bad songs.
Hit boy and Dr. Dre's music is often extremely easy to recreate, you are not wrong there but why does that mean their music is bad? They did something creative and made good songs. Like I said before, the end product was good and I don't think it matters what prior music knowledge they had or how they went about creating the music.
I am glad you agree that a good song doesn't need to have a real instrument in it. Nearly everyone is doing that because it continually offers them a creative platform to make music and it is more accessible to most people as well, I just don't have a problem with that personally nor do I have a problem with the use of a real instrument.
There, now you've gone from a rant to saying something that makes sense.
Oh I am not against playing live.
I record instruments when the track calls for it, hell I've even made a song with a cup and pencils.
Yes, real instruments do make a difference in production. But the lack of real instrumentation is not the the reason for generic sounding music - It's lack of creativity and originality of the creator. All these people aspiring to make songs like __________ or __________, they are not adding anything new to music, in fact they're devaluing the originators.
I can think of 100 reasons that are more important than live instrumentation to blame for generic sounding music.
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FINALLY, we're reaching some common ground. I agree with MOST of your points, but let me clarify as well. I'm not saying that you "CAN'T" make good/fun songs with VSTs, that's crazy talk, and ignorant, and never did I ONCE say that, perhaps the strong manner in which I introduced my sentiments inferred that tone, but that's never what I exclusively said. What I'm saying is, YES you CAN make hits, AND good music with VSTs... BUT if you're calling yourself a producer, and all you do is rely on VSTs and can't play a lick on a guitar, or anything other than twinkle twinkle litter star, or some other remedial piano song, then I don't think you're very talented musically..Sorry, but that's the truth.
Some of the BIGGEST hits, in EVERY genre are composed out of electronic sounds, and SIMPLE melodies, that's cool. It's NOT cool, however, to produce the SAME shit over and over, and re-sell it calling it music, just because you know three chords, and have VSTs that will manipulate the voice of your notes so it sounds like a different song, that shit's lame.
I don't respect guys who make watered down music, I can admit it it's a NICE song, but I DO NOT respect them, because ANYONE can do that, the fact of the matter is most guys who are making the watered down music I'm talking about can only do just that, make watered down music, they can't make anything more complex, and they don't make anything original, which is why I believe ALL producers should be able to play an instrument independent from technology, just a plain stand alone instrument, and study musical theory as much as they study hardware and gear.
Okay, but why do you think there is a lack of "creativity and originality" within the creators of music?
It's because none of them have ever stopped to take the time and STUDY music as an art. Most producers are so backwards, they want to PRODUCE music, before they LEARN music. LOL. To all you young producers that have this mindset, please go away with that logic.
Learning multiple instruments BEFORE I started production has made me a better producer, to the point that I don't even have to THINK about theory, it just comes naturally to me. Music is like math, so long as you understand the equation, you don't NEED to be creative, it's only a simple numbers game to come up with new song arrangements. If other producers realized this, then maybe music would be better.
KonKossKang
Ozagas
Knowing scales is important, but being versatile is hard.It takes so long though.But synths and acoustic instruments are both in physical/digital format.
Tritons, gibsons and lespauls, grand pianos...These things are old.drummachines are from the early 1900's.synths are 50-60 years old.
You can get close to real instrus, with pure math man.reaktor, zebra, massive, synthedit, puresound etc these things are worse than calculus class.
Everybody with the available body parts can achieve what they want but it requires intense, very intense dedication.
People shouldn't throw away the traditional teachings but sticking to a certain set of sounds will kill everything.New instruments that basically give you the tools to create any sound you are capable of making, ever.
Tritons, gibsons and lespauls, grand pianos...These things are old.drummachines are from the early 1900's.synths are 50-60 years old.
You can get close to real instrus, with pure math man.reaktor, zebra, massive, synthedit, puresound etc these things are worse than calculus class.
Everybody with the available body parts can achieve what they want but it requires intense, very intense dedication.
People shouldn't throw away the traditional teachings but sticking to a certain set of sounds will kill everything.New instruments that basically give you the tools to create any sound you are capable of making, ever.
Psalm
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Ok good, you are not as ignorant as I first thought haha. Your OP definitely came across that way.
I don't want to hear the same thing over and over again either, that's why I am extremely sick of hearing trap beats but I just think it is more than possible to only use VSTs yet continue to create innovative stuff. The only thing we actually disagree on is that real instruments are the solution to this lack of creativity, that can probably help a lot but I don't think it's the only answer.
NOTHING comes close to real instruments.Amen brotha.
Real instruments ALONE are not the solution via it's manifest function, HOWEVER if you're using real instruments EVERYDAY you get into the lab, by it's latent function you WILL learn music theory, you'll be forced to, if you don't, then you won't be able to make use of that $1,000 guitar.
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crimsonhawk47
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As someone who's not even a big fan of electronic music, there are equally shitty tracks with all real instruments.
I also assure you that many tracks with real instruments were also repackaged versions of other tracks in that era.
We can also study music theory without studying any instrument other than piano. Music Theory is a much bigger field than learning how to play an instrument.
And since we're saying songs should have an emphasis on real instruments, we should look at any pop rock song ever. Or even better, anything using the pop chord progression. All formulaic, all instrument focused. If there is one with a synth, it's probably one synth max and that's it.
So if we're talking about producing the same tracks over and over, we're basically just saying "Humans suck" because we do that literally everywhere. The fact that we are doomed to repeat the same shit until we die or something saves us has absolutely nothing to do with VST's.
I also assure you that many tracks with real instruments were also repackaged versions of other tracks in that era.
We can also study music theory without studying any instrument other than piano. Music Theory is a much bigger field than learning how to play an instrument.
And since we're saying songs should have an emphasis on real instruments, we should look at any pop rock song ever. Or even better, anything using the pop chord progression. All formulaic, all instrument focused. If there is one with a synth, it's probably one synth max and that's it.
So if we're talking about producing the same tracks over and over, we're basically just saying "Humans suck" because we do that literally everywhere. The fact that we are doomed to repeat the same shit until we die or something saves us has absolutely nothing to do with VST's.
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I am aware...
You clearly don't listen to modern "rap" music. I know/agree that EVERY song is a variation of another song, and that there are only so many catchy arrangements that can be made to keep the attention of these small minded teenagers. I understand that. What I'm trying to say, is DON'T make it so obvious. Right now in my city, if you turn on the radio, you'll hear the SAME song 7 times over, just a different artist, but they're all pretty much the same beat, not to mention that the drum patterns are RIDICULOUSLY similar.
Moral of the story? If you want to make music, STUDY music, THEN produce music. Otherwise you'll just be looping twinkle twinkle little star with a heavy drum in the background... Essentially.
crimsonhawk47
New member
First of all, I assure you I listen to an insane amount of modern rap music, so let's just stop right there.
Second of all, if we're gonna act like the entire world of modern production is lazy because of what's on the radio, boy, that's some serious pop fever.
Is it possible that just the stuff that's popular is formulaic?
Is it possible that the stuff that's popular has always been formulaic?
Something doesn't need to go triple platinum to be validated as "music" and then denounced for being formulaic. There are less known albums that are very innovative and still use vst's.
Btw, you should try listening to Zealots of Stockholm by Childish Gambino. Not exactly you're radio hit.
that's no excuse for producers to be lazy, which they are now-a-days, listen to drakes instrumentals, they're MOSTLY basic, or Nikki Minaj, or whoever kids are listening to now-a-days, don't tell me you couldn't make that shit yourself.
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crimsonhawk47
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Of course I could. Anyone in this forum could really. Again, all radio hits. Who gives a **** what they're doing.
I'm guessing you didn't listen to the track either (gambino). It was an example of a more popular album with creative parts in it, not my top drawer of obscure music. But it's certainly a VERY creative album, as it was released with a movie script and is actually a parallel to his life. Any songs that sound like they are about getting money and what not are actually done ironically, and contribute to the bigger theme of isolation.
Of course producers are lazy nowadays, because being a pop star has been a formula for a long time now.
Drake and Nikki don't know what's going on. But as long as people pay top dollar for the same shit not much we can do.
I'm not a huge edm fan, but I feel some of them have a much bigger respect for theory than modern rap producers. They understand dynamics and progressions better. Unfortunately, the more popular ones are pretty much the same. Kick, snare, white noise riser, filter eq sweep, breakdown.
Now, I'm a huge rap fan so I get that it's supposed to have a programmed feel. We're starting to see bigger changes in rap though towards keeping tracks interesting instead of static. Though I actually think some underground artists are falling behind in this category and some of the more popular ones like Gambino and Kendrick are trying to keep things more interesting in subtle ways.
Rock has kinda turned into silly pop. Dave Pensado was talking about that with the synths and the sweetening effects. I've never really liked modern rock. I do like The Heavy and The Civil Wars, but the really indie rock tends to be better than the pop rock. No thanks to One Direction
Radio is the diarrhea of music. This will probably never change until record companies fail some more.
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crimsonhawk47
New member
I mean I don't think anybody's arguing that a lot of work went into this XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrTnWDTdwI
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
Bass and guitar are different beasts: op should know better than to suggest otherwise; myc you should know better from what you do in your day job.
Mozart the younger (there is also his father) played the keyboard (piano, clavichord, harpsichord, organ), violin and viola, as far as I can recall, even making his living playing violin and viola in orchestras and smaller ensembles (quartets and quintets) as well as playing piano and teaching and writing to commission.
others here know that I play many instruments (in excess of 20 at last count) and that I often argue for learning to play at least one in preference to just learning theory with a daw/notation based program.
The problem is that there will always be those who use shortcuts and formulas to create music: that is what makes pop music what it is: identify a sound and style and milk it for what it is worth
in the 50s it was Leiber and Stoller
in the 60's it was Dozier-Holland-Dozier
in the 70's it was Chin and Chapman
in the 80's it was Stock-Aitken-Waterman
and the list becomes much more diluted (more teams doing more work with smaller success rates) as we move forward
@ the op: allowing us to hear some of your music would enable all of us to fairly judge your commentary and arguments
@ everyone else: yes, some posts have disappeared -this was important to ensure that the discussion was fair and not inflammatory or personally attacking individuals.
As some would have noticed earlier, I locked the thread whilst I waded through the 40+ posts to remove the attacks and maintain a semblance of orderly yet heated discussion.
let's get back to it without venom and spite
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It's never about how it's made or what they used. It's about how it sounds. period. Genre irrelevant
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boombapdame
Member
There is nothing wrong with using virtual instruments as the difference between them and acoustic instruments lies in the skill of how well the musician can manipulate either type. I feel like were virtual instruments to disappear any moment, I'd feel bad for not ever learning an acoustic instrument i.e. any instrument that is not electronic.
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