help on chord progessions and bass lines
- Thread starter fooheads
- Start date
jackhzrd
Bring it!
For hip hop:
- the progression is usually within the sample that the track is based around
- if starting from scratch, keep it really simple. Many if not most hip hop songs are based on only 1-3, maybe 4 chords.
THE RULE OF THUMB
"When there's kick, there's bass."
So if you got kick on the 1, the 3 and on the 'and' of 4, place a suitably tuned and enveloped sub bass on each of those. Many tracks get by with just that. To illustrate:
Solo your kick track (whatever it may be) and whenever the kick hits, say 'boom'. Then start saying 'boom' on some hits and only 'ba' on some hits. Obviously the tail on the boom is longer than the ba. On the really HUUGE hits (usually the 1), you could say 'boouum'. I think using this type of 'vocalisation' technique is great for any composing, ESPECIALLY hip hop, dubstep, drum'n bass etc...
If you want to syncopate (in between the basic downbeats) your bass a little, place notes 1 octave higher in selected places where the kick doesn't hit. U can also use a carefully placed slap bass single slap or pop here or there to funk it up a little. But don't deviate from the main rule of thumb, it simply works every time!
- the progression is usually within the sample that the track is based around
- if starting from scratch, keep it really simple. Many if not most hip hop songs are based on only 1-3, maybe 4 chords.
THE RULE OF THUMB
"When there's kick, there's bass."
So if you got kick on the 1, the 3 and on the 'and' of 4, place a suitably tuned and enveloped sub bass on each of those. Many tracks get by with just that. To illustrate:
Solo your kick track (whatever it may be) and whenever the kick hits, say 'boom'. Then start saying 'boom' on some hits and only 'ba' on some hits. Obviously the tail on the boom is longer than the ba. On the really HUUGE hits (usually the 1), you could say 'boouum'. I think using this type of 'vocalisation' technique is great for any composing, ESPECIALLY hip hop, dubstep, drum'n bass etc...
If you want to syncopate (in between the basic downbeats) your bass a little, place notes 1 octave higher in selected places where the kick doesn't hit. U can also use a carefully placed slap bass single slap or pop here or there to funk it up a little. But don't deviate from the main rule of thumb, it simply works every time!
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bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
Assuming that it is based on something - if not this is a useless piece of advice.
And some typical progressions would be?????
vi-V-IV - e.g. Aminor (ACE) - G (GBD) - F (FAC)
I-vi-IV - e.g. C (CEG) - Aminor (ACE) - F (FAC)
I-vi-V - e.g. C (CEG) - Aminor (ACE) - G (GBD)
V-i-IV - e.g. E (EG#B) - Aminor (ACE) - F (FAC)
V-i-IV-V - e.g. E (EG#B) - Aminor (ACE) - F (FAC) - G (GBD)
i-bVII-bVI-V - e.g. Aminor (ACE) - G (GBD) - F (FAC) - E (EG#B)
i-bVII-iv-III - e.g. Aminor (ACE) - G (GBD) - Dminor (DFA) - C (CEG)
Put them into different keys and you have a host of new progressions to work with.
Fair enough, but what notes?
Use the root and fifth of the chord at the current spot in your progression; i.e. in the examples I gave above, the outside notes, Aminor, would be A and E.
Sometimes you might you use the note a scale tone beneath the root - one or two keys below. So, for Aminor, that would be G
See example below i-bVII-iv-III:
[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/hiphop.mp3[/MP3]
---------- Post added 03-13-2011 at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was 03-12-2011 at 12:41 PM ----------
Thinking about this overnight, if you want to move from chord to chord with the bass leading the way, you might apply the same rule moving by a note that is a scale tone a way from the target chord.
So moving to the Dmin from the G you use a C in the bass line (a tone below the D) andmoving from the C to the Aminor you use a B (a tone above the A):
[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/hipHop2.mp3[/MP3]
Add 7ths and 9ths to your chords for more interesting sounds. Add some strings playing pizzicato and arco (plucked and bowed) and you begin to get a lush sound that can't be beat:
[MP3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/hipHop3.mp3[/MP3]
That's Aminor9 (ACEGB) - G9 (GBDFA) - Dmin9 (DFACE) - CMaj9 (CEGBD)
Tie notes together that are the same to make the movement more smooth in strings if you wish or just voice it (vertically arrange the notes) as sounds best to you.
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robochrist
New member
Bandcoach and jackhzrd, thank you so much! Very very helpful stuff.
yea thanks
---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------
what about 6ths,11ths and 13s
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
sure - usage is similar.
the 6th chord was popularised by the writers of Tin Pan Alley at the start of the 20th century. It was mainly used to ensure that each chord had 4 different notes. this was because all minor chords were rendered as minor 7ths (1-b3-5-b7). Rendering a major chord as a 6th (1-3-5-6) meant that the sonority was the same throughout a piece of music because a major 6th chord is a minor 7th chord in 1st inversion, e.g.:
C6 ~ CEGA
Am7 ~ ACEG
This was done to avoid the harshness of the Major 7th chord, something that was later embraced.
11ths are used where you would use a chord V, as are 13ths; i.e. they have a dominant function
the 6th chord was popularised by the writers of Tin Pan Alley at the start of the 20th century. It was mainly used to ensure that each chord had 4 different notes. this was because all minor chords were rendered as minor 7ths (1-b3-5-b7). Rendering a major chord as a 6th (1-3-5-6) meant that the sonority was the same throughout a piece of music because a major 6th chord is a minor 7th chord in 1st inversion, e.g.:
C6 ~ CEGA
Am7 ~ ACEG
This was done to avoid the harshness of the Major 7th chord, something that was later embraced.
11ths are used where you would use a chord V, as are 13ths; i.e. they have a dominant function
jackhzrd
Bring it!
1. A LOT of hip hop is. Take a 4 bar sample from a motown tune (this is the progression), pitch shift it, chop it up, add your 808 kickdrum and clap, your sampled horn / string stabs, bust a rhyme on top of it, and there you have it. You don't need a freakin' score to make hip hop.
2. See above....I doubt that many hip hop producers sit down and start with some chords. Think about something like "killing me softly" by the Fugees.....the whole track is personified by that twangy 1 bar guitar sample, then wyclef says "one time two time" and Lauryn takes care of the rest. Without THAT guitar sample, it would never have been the hit it was. So my contention is, it's not about the progression, it's about a signature hook, a signature beat, it's usually one major element, one sound, and the actual chord progression underneath it is rather inconsequential.
3. The ones that fit and sound good. Hip hoppers like to jam, bust the drums from the MPC, then fool around with the bass sounds, and eventually something cool will come. IMHO you're trying to make it too scientific....now don't get me wrong, you definitely know your theory and I would never question your aptitude as a big band coach or whatever, but it ain't about the theory. If you disagree, I think I could get certain dudes like Hendrix, James Brown or Michael Jackson to back me up on that. The music is in your head, not on a piece of paper!
I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, I simply believe that theory is good for analyzing music, not so much for composing it!
Bass
frozenjazz
New member
HEy bandcoach
this is simply an excellent advice.
I often do this without really thinking about it, it really helps doing smooth transitions from one chord to the other.
[off topic]
sorry about the "bubble shower" thing, it seems you are pretty chords-savvy, but I could not agree with you there...
[/off topic]
---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------
could not agree more!
i play by ear, even though I know about ionian and mixolydian stuff...
theory is nice to give you some basis, and then to explain why some things sound good.. (or bad
)
I know that in a minor song, if I want to give some power, to a metal song, or to a hiphop beat, using the blue note (augmented 4th) works well
this is simply an excellent advice.
I often do this without really thinking about it, it really helps doing smooth transitions from one chord to the other.
[off topic]
sorry about the "bubble shower" thing, it seems you are pretty chords-savvy, but I could not agree with you there...
[/off topic]
---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------
could not agree more!
i play by ear, even though I know about ionian and mixolydian stuff...
theory is nice to give you some basis, and then to explain why some things sound good.. (or bad
)I know that in a minor song, if I want to give some power, to a metal song, or to a hiphop beat, using the blue note (augmented 4th) works well
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
@jackhzrd:
Funnily enough Hendrix worked for James Brown before his stint in the Army, which is where he sat, played guitar and worked on his theory. James Brown's "I gotcha" was him signaling the band or an individual member that they had made a mistake and were being docked $20 from their concert fee. Wacko worked with Quincy Jones, who has a Masters in Composition and Arranging from Berklee.
Unfortunately for you, the original poster asked how to do in the concrete not how to do in the abstract. Hence his question about "do you know any chord progressions?"
If someone says, "how does such and such a style work?", glib responses without reference to musical examples does not explain or teach, it merely confuses at best and alienates at worst.
Analysis is about extracting the essence of a piece of music or style or genre.
Then using that essence to describe what to do is far more instructive than any set of written formulae that may or may not be understood.
@frozenjazz:
You understand my point, I think.
And thank you for the kudos.
Funnily enough Hendrix worked for James Brown before his stint in the Army, which is where he sat, played guitar and worked on his theory. James Brown's "I gotcha" was him signaling the band or an individual member that they had made a mistake and were being docked $20 from their concert fee. Wacko worked with Quincy Jones, who has a Masters in Composition and Arranging from Berklee.
Unfortunately for you, the original poster asked how to do in the concrete not how to do in the abstract. Hence his question about "do you know any chord progressions?"
If someone says, "how does such and such a style work?", glib responses without reference to musical examples does not explain or teach, it merely confuses at best and alienates at worst.
Analysis is about extracting the essence of a piece of music or style or genre.
Then using that essence to describe what to do is far more instructive than any set of written formulae that may or may not be understood.
@frozenjazz:
You understand my point, I think.
And thank you for the kudos.
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E
Emmapeel9
Guest
The above doesn't really say anything about the music people involved and their possible influence by theoretical things. Hendrix worked on his theory? This is not what Hendrix was about. I'm not sure what the James Brown reference is supposed to indicate either. And Michael Jackson was into music analysis because he knew someone with a degree? This is not a given.
It's important to consider everything that made the music person great, be it learning, natural talent or many other things too. Just because they had read a book on guitar chords when they were 8 doesn't mean that they were heavily into music theory or that that event was pivotal to their success.
I'll do a post on musical talent in a bit as it is easy to forget about what it is in a forum that is based mostly on words than sound.
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
It's nice to see that you can get what you want from what I wrote - I did not suggest that wacko was into analysis - I did suggest that he worked with people who were using it to inform their music making. Check the writing credits on the Thriller album and you will begin to see what I mean.
You might also do yourself a favour and read Jimmy Webb's on songwriting. One of the greatest songwriters of the 60's, 70's and 80's and beyond.
Stop defending the indefensible: blind, mindlessness in creation - it may work as therapy, but it sure as heck doesn't cut it if you want to make a living.
You might also do yourself a favour and read Jimmy Webb's on songwriting. One of the greatest songwriters of the 60's, 70's and 80's and beyond.
Stop defending the indefensible: blind, mindlessness in creation - it may work as therapy, but it sure as heck doesn't cut it if you want to make a living.
jackhzrd
Bring it!
Wacko - do you know how one of the greatest ever basslines was made? Wacko simply started humming the bassline to Billie Jean...it just appeared in his head. Quincy Jones could've been taking a crap for all we care..the essence of that song is the bassline, wacko didn't need any theory to come up with that.
I know about James' style running the band and deducting the dollar from his crew when they weren't tight enough. But James didn't give a crap about theory....he vocalised everything...he told the horn section: "I want you to play it like this: ta ta ta ta ta ta ta daa POW!" You think he handed them a piece of paper with the notes on a clef? Um...no!
Hendrix was just getting into theory at the time of his untimely and unfortunate death. He had aspirations about working with big bands and orchestras and was interested in arranging etc...but he wasn't into the theory at all prior to that, in fact, I believe he simply had some God-given gift of channeling his music with incredible ease. You can spend 50 years analyzing all the clefs and all the masters and earning degrees and shit, but it's not gonna make the music happen, because music JUST happens! That's why today's pop music sucks fat ass because it's all so calculated and formulaic, it doesn't just happen, it's constructed and recorded, not from the heart, but from the head.
As a side note, any band that needs a "coach", is not gonna make it, mmmkay? Even though there are certain similarities between band function and a sports team, a coach is NOT what's going to make a band....a muse, now that's a different story, that might inspire a certain individual to reach into their creative treasure chest and come up with something big, like Picasso or whatever. But if a band needs a coach, then, well, I don't know, I'm quite sure I've never paid to see a band that's been "coached"....
Bass
I know about James' style running the band and deducting the dollar from his crew when they weren't tight enough. But James didn't give a crap about theory....he vocalised everything...he told the horn section: "I want you to play it like this: ta ta ta ta ta ta ta daa POW!" You think he handed them a piece of paper with the notes on a clef? Um...no!
Hendrix was just getting into theory at the time of his untimely and unfortunate death. He had aspirations about working with big bands and orchestras and was interested in arranging etc...but he wasn't into the theory at all prior to that, in fact, I believe he simply had some God-given gift of channeling his music with incredible ease. You can spend 50 years analyzing all the clefs and all the masters and earning degrees and shit, but it's not gonna make the music happen, because music JUST happens! That's why today's pop music sucks fat ass because it's all so calculated and formulaic, it doesn't just happen, it's constructed and recorded, not from the heart, but from the head.
As a side note, any band that needs a "coach", is not gonna make it, mmmkay? Even though there are certain similarities between band function and a sports team, a coach is NOT what's going to make a band....a muse, now that's a different story, that might inspire a certain individual to reach into their creative treasure chest and come up with something big, like Picasso or whatever. But if a band needs a coach, then, well, I don't know, I'm quite sure I've never paid to see a band that's been "coached"....
Bass
jackhzrd
Bring it!
1. Under construction. I won't put it out there until I can stand proudly behind it 100%.
2. I'm holding my breath as we speak!
3. What? Black is black is in a major key, Billie Jean is minor....there is a certain similarity there in the first bar, but the feel is totally different, I highly doubt that is where wacko ripped it from...
And since you were after my merits, exactly which bands have YOU coached to stardom? How many classic records refer thanks to a "coach" in their sleeve notes?
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
This says it all - you are still in the throes of creation - if you don't trust your own music , how can you possibly offer advice to anyone else and expect them to trust it???
I hope you finish quickly then, as I wouldn't want you to die. Also, you can't speak if you are holding your breath.......
Key is irrelevant: the rhythmic and melodic features are there.
For someone without a track record they wish to point to, this is hardly the way to endear yourself to anyone.
As for my merits: again irrelevant - my music speaks for itself.
E
Emmapeel9
Guest
Michael Jackson admitted lifting the Billie Jean bassline from "I can go for that" by Hall and oates. (On the Wiki page for Billie Jean.) I've had a listen on Youtube and it is close though not quite the exact same. The groove is similar though.
I've also had a listen to the "Black is black" bassline by La belle epoch. I'd say this was less the same than the above. I'm listening to the bit before the vocal comes in and the groove is played. The groove here seems to last for half a bar whereas the one in Billie Jean lasts for a whole bar.
The "Black is black" groove/bassline is very distinct and may have inspired many basslines, including Billie Jean, but to me it is a different thing.
Very famous bassline which hopefully explains my obsessing on it...
I've also had a listen to the "Black is black" bassline by La belle epoch. I'd say this was less the same than the above. I'm listening to the bit before the vocal comes in and the groove is played. The groove here seems to last for half a bar whereas the one in Billie Jean lasts for a whole bar.
The "Black is black" groove/bassline is very distinct and may have inspired many basslines, including Billie Jean, but to me it is a different thing.
Very famous bassline which hopefully explains my obsessing on it...