neo soul chords/scales/progressions

Hey guys, I have been really trying to get get started w/ learning how to make those jazzy, neo-soul sound in my beats. D'angelo, Musiq Soulchild, esque rhodes sounds..
I even asked the music teacher at college and he just kept trying to give me examples of the conception of the triad in the catholic church in the middle ages.... :cry::cry:

could someone please point me in the right direction? not asking for someone to write me a book on neo soul chords but to just give me a starting point
 
Well, I just listened to a whole swag of D'Angelo on youtube (thanks for that) and Buddy's Musiq Soulchild and there is one thing that stands out:

They all use extended harmony: i.e. they use scale-tone based 7th and 9th chords in place of ordinary triads. The rest of the chord progressions are based on the originals where they exist.

Musiq soulchild is simply F#m7 (F#AC#E) and Bm7 (BDF#A) with the odd E9 (EG#BDF#) thrown in for good measure as a link back to the Bm7.

I heard the following chord types in use with scale appropriate usage of each type of 7th chord:
Maj7 ~ 1357 ~C-E-G-B
7 ~ 135b7 ~ C-E-G-Bb
min7 ~ 1b35b7 ~ C-Eb-G-Bb
m7b5 ~ 1b3b5b7 ~ C-Eb-Gb-Bb
o7 ~ 1b3b5bb7 ~ C-Eb-Gb-Bbb​


Scale appropriate usage means chords are built above a scale degree and the extension naturally occurs in that key/scale (no need to add sharps or flats).

In C major these would be:
1 ~ I7 ~ C-E-G-B ~ CMaj7
2 ~ ii7 ~ D-F-A-C ~ Dmin7
3 ~ iii7 ~ E-G-B-D ~ Emin7
4 ~ IV7 ~ F-A-C-E ~ FMaj7
5 ~ V7 ~ G-B-D-F ~ G7
6 ~ vi7 ~ A-C-E-G ~ Amin7
7 ~ vii7b5 ~ B-D-F-A ~ Bmin7b5​

In A harmonic minor (the minor scale for building chords) these would be
1 ~ i7 ~ A-C-E-G# ~ Amin-Maj7
2 ~ ii7b5 ~ B-D-F-A ~ Bmin7b5
3 ~ III7#5 ~ C-E-G#-B ~ C7#5 (C Augmented 7)
4 ~ iv7 ~ D-F-A-C ~ Dmin7
5 ~ V7 ~ E-G#-B-D ~ E7
6 ~ bVI7 ~ F-A-C-E ~ FMaj7
7 ~ viio7 ~ G#-B-D-F ~ G# diminished 7​
 
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Wow thank you so much..
and just fyi the song is buddy by Musiq Soulchild : )

So basically, in a less educated way of putting it; can I take standard chord progressions and just voice them with 7ths, 9ths, etc until it sounds good to achieve that nice neo-soul sound?

That was very useful though, thanks a lot

---------- Post added 05-01-2011 at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was 04-27-2011 at 02:57 PM ----------

hey can you explain how A minor is the minor key for building chords?

@ 3:20... so ill

would someone simplify that @ 320
 
Wow thank you so much..
and just fyi the song is buddy by Musiq Soulchild : )

So basically, in a less educated way of putting it; can I take standard chord progressions and just voice them with 7ths, 9ths, etc until it sounds good to achieve that nice neo-soul sound?

That was very useful though, thanks a lot

hey can you explain how A minor is the minor key for building chords?

OK, so when we go to a minor key, we have at least three ways to create chords, based on the three main minor scales: Natural minor, the same as the major scale with the same notes, Harmonic minor, where the last note is raised one key/sharpened, sot make chord V a major chord instead of the minor chord it would be if built in the natural minor, and Melodic minor which is mostly used for creating melodies,but can be used for chords as well as it is used running up and down in jazz and known as the jazz minor.

I have posted this a few times so I'm going to link to the posts rather than rewrite it again

This one talks about it C minor: https://www.futureproducers.com/for...-minor-scale-tone-chords-366855/#post49116360

This one talks about it in F# minor: https://www.futureproducers.com/for...t-key-scales-chords-help-361875/#post49084031

@ 3:20... so ill

would someone simplify that @ 320


He's talking about playing minor 11th chords. the chords used are

FACEGDC - Amin11/F
GCEDB - CMaj9/G
GCECF - C11 (NO 7)
FADAC - Dmin7

etc.
 
Man, thanks so much.. I have a pretty BASIC understanding of theory, lots to learn but you've really cleared up some questions I've had lingering for AWHILE...

I've been messing around with harmonic minor now, before when ever I would compose stuff it would always be in a natural minor key.. but now trying harmonic minor, (A harmonic minor) it seems like every time I hit that G# in a chord it sounds terrible.

do you have an e-mail or aim or anything? I will also visit your site, thank you so much for the help
 
Yeah the G# in A harmonic minor is really meant to be used with the E chord, it doesn't sit well being the 7th or the 9th. It's OK if it is prepared and exited properly as in the progression Am ///| Am/G# /// | Am/G /// | Am/F# /// || Which is the start to several well-known songs including Masquerade, Stairway To Heaven.
 
I bought these amazing DVD's from ebay called play by ear and they do explain the fundamental of neo soul..its by the same dude with the videos posted on top
 
Surprised no one mentioned tritones. Yeah M7s are a big part of it, but what most people don't really realize is that neo-soul / jazz keys is just as much (if not more) about turnarounds than the actual chord you plan on landing on. I can land on an F Maj 7 10 different ways, and each turnaround chord is going to give that FM7 totally different feel! Also, don't get in the habit of just playing the typical bass note with your left hand. If you really want to be playing neosoul, you should play on using at least two fingers with your left and four with your right (other than turnarounds). Good luck.
 
Cool, so it is just a new way of talking about jazz.

Turnarounds are a great way to move - they are the basis of so many songs in their own right.

As for tritones, I'm sure that you mean tritone substitutions,which is a whole other level of thinking about chords.


How toi use tritone substitution
To simplify it for now, think of a typical circle of fifths progression such as Em7-Am7-Dm7-G7-CMaj7

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/tritonesAgain1.mp3[/mp3]

tritonesAgain1.png


A tritone substitution in this progression would usually take the form of

Em7-Eb7-Dm7-Db7-Cmaj7

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/tritonesAgain2.mp3[/mp3]

tritonesAgain2.png


It could also take the form:

Bb7-Am7-Ab7-G7-Cmaj7

[mp3]http://www.bandcoach.org/fp/audio/tritonesAgain3.mp3[/mp3]

tritonesAgain3.png


You can use any extensions to the chord that you like, as long is "works" with what you are playing

Why tritone substitution works


Initial Tonic noteTritone Sub Tonic note
CF[sup]#[/sup]/G[sup]b[/sup]
C[sup]#[/sup]/D[sup]b[/sup]G
DG[sup]#[/sup]/A[sup]b[/sup]
D[sup]#[/sup]/E[sup]b[/sup]A
EA[sup]#[/sup]/B[sup]b[/sup]
FB
F[sup]#[/sup]/G[sup]b[/sup]C
GC[sup]#[/sup]/D[sup]b[/sup]
G[sup]#[/sup]/A[sup]b[/sup]D
AD[sup]#[/sup]/E[sup]b[/sup]
A[sup]#[/sup]/B[sup]b[/sup]E
BF

In both substitution progressions we substituted chords that led to a semitone movement in the bass. The chords that we used were 6 semitones away from the original chord, a tritone. The fluidity of movement that using semitone chordal movement also known as planing or parallel chording is also, surprisingly, musically satisfying to the ear, at least in equal temperament.
 
Tritone subs sidestep the tonic.In the traditional II V I progression the tritone substitution would be IIb (often a dominant seventh with added upper partials)

The neosoul sound is just extended chords with plenty of chromatic substitions.Rather than

Em Am B7
Em7/9 Bb7 Am7 F7

The Bb7 sidesteps to Am and the F7 sidesteps to Em. The voicings are equally important too.In fact allthis tends to sound like an exercise in jarring harmony without correct voicing.I'd voice F7 thus:

F Eb Eb (G )A D
 
actually, no, a tritone sub does not necessarily sidestep the tonic - the usual usage is in replacing V in a ii-V-I and ii-V-i progression i.e. it is more likely to be used to replace a dominant chord than the tonic chord - whether the dominant is a temporary dominant due to secondary dominants coming into play or a real dominant: in my examples that would be using the Eb7 instead of Am7 and using Db7 instead of G7 - i.e. it's usage is in chordal planing - "moving by semitone"
 
actually, no, a tritone sub does not necessarily sidestep the tonic - the usual usage is in replacing V in a ii-V-I and ii-V-i progression i.e. it is more likely to be used to replace a dominant chord than the tonic chord - whether the dominant is a temporary dominant due to secondary dominants coming into play or a real dominant: in my examples that would be using the Eb7 instead of Am7 and using Db7 instead of G7 - i.e. it's usage is in chordal planing - "moving by semitone"

Thats its primary use. Im just trying to reduce the trick to the bare essentials. You're right though and your erudition knows no bound. I kid. The sub basically substitutes the perfect fourth for a tritonic interval. That is reminiscent of the lydian raised 4th which is openly and notoriously jazzy. So the root of the sub could be any chord. Say F to B of any kind. The other point oft missed is that the actual substitution need not be a dominant. It became that because it acts as a sort of secondary dominant. However it can be minor 7th Major etc well I made that up and its not true but shoot and you might score
 
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Tritone subs sidestep the tonic.In the traditional II V I progression the tritone substitution would be IIb (often a dominant seventh with added upper partials)

The neosoul sound is just extended chords with plenty of chromatic substitions.Rather than

Em Am B7
Em7/9 Bb7 Am7 F7

So, you are saying that the tritone sub can be inserted into a progression, rather than replace an exiting chord in the progression - atypical use, as it is no longer a substitution but an alteration to the progression

The Bb7 sidesteps to Am and the F7 sidesteps to Em. The voicings are equally important too. In fact all this tends to sound like an exercise in jarring harmony without correct voicing.I'd voice F7 thus:

F Eb Eb (G )A D

So you are saying it should be used as ii-V-[sup]b[/sup]II :kind of defeats the purpose of using it then, as it's primary purpose in jazz and other styles has been to provide semitonal chordal planing. In fact, if we consider the related concept of the Neapolitan 6th (N6) which is a [sup]b[/sup]II chord in 1st inversion and whose sole purpose is to move to V - a tritone away - this is more akin to what you are describing and is not considered to be a true tritone substitution, as it is a chromatic substitute for ii or IV - it is notated as N6-V-i|I

As for voicing F[sup]7[/sup] - once you add the 9 and the 13 it is no longer a dom7, but a dom 13th. And, yes while it can sub for the lower level extension, it also functions in its own way in both traditional and jazz harmony having voice leading consequences beyond the dom7 function....

Thats its primary use. Im just trying to reduce the trick to the bare essentials.
bare essentials is that replaces a dominant (or minor, I concede) chord in a ii-v|V-i|I scrap progression, by which I mean analysing the function of any 3 successive chords in isolation to identify it as being of the class ii-v|V-i|I, like so ii-[sup]b[/sup]II-i|I

You're right though and your erudition knows no bound. I kid.

Are you seriously saying that you are just having a go for the sake of winding me up

The sub basically substitutes the perfect fourth for a tritonic interval.
Um, it substitutes the movement of V-I (ii-V is the same) by moving by semitone downwards rather than a 4th upwards or a 5th downwards

That is reminiscent of the lydian raised 4th which is openly and notoriously jazzy.

Yes, except that it is not a reference to the scale form but a chordal movement which is less strictly defined. Also the lydian does not need to be further qualified as the #4 is implicit in the naming.

So the root of the sub could be any chord. Say F to B of any kind. The other point oft missed is that the actual substitution need not be a dominant. It became that because it acts as a sort of secondary dominant. However it can be minor 7th Major etc well I made that up and its not true but shoot and you might score

So, you are essentially pushing the view that the use of N6-V-i|I is how a tritone sub works...


Notational usage lesson
I used the shorthand i|I and v|V to indicate that either the first or second chord could appear in the progression but not both, i.e. it replaces writing

ii-v-i
ii-V-i
ii-v-I
ii-V-I
 
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The gist of our respective arguments is that the tritone sub provides semitonal planing vs the tritonic sub in a more abstract impressionistic sense. I agree that the theory books have it laid out as a means to create tonal convergence through semitonal planing. The G7 substituted for Db7 creates several lines of convergence not least the common 3rd and 7th but the Gb parent scale or Blydian both of which have semitonal relationships to the dominant and tonic respectively.
Im talking about the sub in a literal sense. Using the interval of the tritone to create a lydian intervallic relationship or even using it to bring out the augmented fourth/dimminishes fifth. The former is agreed upon by mutual consent while the latter is an intrerpretation to widen the scope.
I know that that stands in rude contravention to every accepted notion of the sub as a replacement, but my method of working is to emphasise the intervallic relationship that exists.
In Dm G C the tritone sub is Dm Db C , but a jazz musician is going to hear that augmented interval because the G7 is implied as standard. Im then extending that throughout the system so that the tritone sub can be used anywhere within a scale to creatre a similar effect.

The sub is as much a concept as it is a cadentrial progression and it can be projected throughout a tonal system

Ab7 G C
Em Eb7 Dm Db7 C
Db7 Ab7 C

and so on and so forth. It is my opinion that the original chord associations remain and thus treating the tritonic sub as being suggestive of an interval is a defensible practise

Robert Glasper uses a similar reworking of the sub. Often he resolves to the fourth via stepwise motion: Bm7 BbM7. This almost instantaneously evokes the dreamy detachment of the genre
 
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I see, your argument is about interval usage (which is only part of the application of the tritone sub), rather than chordal usage...

Specifically the 7-4 pair in the dominant 7th chord and therefore being used as the axis from which to spin off to other tonal centers ala Wolf Marshall's tritone axis to move to key areas such as

axisTritones.png


So with the Chords G[sup]7[/sup] and D[sup]b7[/sup] we have the same tritone pair - B-F or F-C[sup]b[/sup] - as the active elements in resolving to either C or G[sup]b[/sup]. If we then consider Bb7 and E7, we get the other active tritone pair G[sup]#[/sup]-D or D-A[sup]b[/sup]. We can combine these four notes to make a second active dim7 chord based on B-D-F-A[sup]b[/sup], which in turn can resolve to any one of C or A or G[sup]b[/sup] or E[sup]b[/sup]
 
so this thread is old but if anyone out there is still looking for info on how to play neosoul, something that's key (esp for keys/gtr) is making sure to voice your chords the exact same way, using way too much parallel movement. A lot cats i've played with (esp jazz keys) have gorgeous voicings they pull out when we jam on some neosoul, but a lot of the church cats i play with will move their whole hands in the same position to the next chord, and in my opinion that's more of the sound you're gonna be looking for. For example, if youre gonna play the ever cliche I^7 IV^7, play them both voiced 1-7-5-9-3 (F-E-C-G-A to Bb-A-F-C-D) instead of moving 1-7-5-9-3 (F-E-C-G-A) to something like 1-3-5-7-9 (Bb-D-F-A-C). I know those voicings suck, but you catch the drift. Also, if you're playing with a bass player, feel free to leave root position at the door and drop fifths like you had too much to drink. It's also more about making sure that you're fitting in the groove than harmony. You can literally play triads & make it sound dope. I hope that helps someone out there who got lost in the ever-going argument about the use of tritones vs napoleon 6ths & secondary dominants and whatnot.
 
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