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Thread: Need Help So Frustrated

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by widekeys View Post
    You could use a sus4 (c# with black keys) as a dominant (in fact it's a sub-dominant cause of the missing melodic tone f but that does not limit the dominant feel).
    i.e. C#sus4 ~ C#-F#-G#

    However, it is firmly a dominant function (chord Vsus4), not sub dominant (which is B-D#-F# or chord IV); lack of the 3rd does not change the overall function of the chord, as the 4th is substituting for the 3rd within the current context.

    I was talking about the pentatonic F#, whichs tones are also used in the C#-mixolydian.
    I do not dispute this assertion, however, it is an incomplete rendering of the mode, and can only be viewed as a mode of the pentatonic major version 1.

    The II-IV-I move is used in pop/rock aswell and also in hiphop. In fact there is no limitation to use this progression. It's ideal to create a strong tonal feeling for the song since it's so fundamental.
    So you are saying that something like D(DF#A)-F(FAC)-C(CEG) (this is how you would render II-IV-I, with chord II as a major chord) is a common progression and that it serves a well defined functional purpose - never actually seen that in any of my reading or training or application or research (the absence of the leading tone in the "defining" chords makes the statement moot in my opinion).

    you are more likely to see II-V-I (D-G-C) or IV-V-I (F-G-C) or ii-V-I (Dm-G-C) as defining progressions in a given key (C major has been chosen for simplicity of presentation)

    And with secundary ii-iv-i moves you're on the safe side switching tonality (of course it is not the only way..). It's also the end move of the harmonical turnaround, but I'm not going to discuss that here
    ii-iv-i (Dm (DFA) - Fm (FAbC) - Cm (CEbG)) is unusual, it would normally be iib5-iv-i (Dmb5 (DFAb) - Fm (FAbC) - Cm (CEbG)). Even then it is not a common progression. You are more likely to experience iib5-V-i (Dmb5 (DFAb) - G (GBD) - Cm (CEbG)) or even bVI-bVII-i (Ab (AbCEb)) - Bb (BbDF) - Cm (CEbG))

    Turnarounds are based on cycle of 5ths movement not cycle of 4ths. They also usually end on chord V as lead back to the I at the start of the progression.

    there are several turnaround formulae, the most common of which are

    I - vi - ii - V C-Am-Dm-G
    I - vi - IV - V C-Am-F-G
    i - bVI - iib5 - V Cm-Ab-Dmb5-G
    i - bVI - iv - V Cm-Ab-Fm-G
    I - iii - ii - V C-Em-Dm-G
    I - iii - IV - V C-Em-F-G

    Chord ii is a substitute for chord IV and vice versa
    Chord iib5 is a substitute for chord iv and vice versa

    The movement from I-vi and i-bVI and I-iii are a short circuiting of the full cycle of 5ths motion which is

    I-IV-viib5-iii-vi-ii-V-I in the major
    i-iv-bVII-bIII-bVI-iib5-v-i in the natural minor
    i-iv-viib5-bIII#5-bVI-iib5-V-i in the harmonic minor
    i-IV-viib5-bIII#5-vib5-ii-V-i in the melodic minor
    BC: I've been making music since Before Computers were common in music
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  2. #12
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    Dude, I ment II-V-I Sorry, my fault. I was wondering why this wasn't right lol.
    However, ii-iv-i is without any cadence.
    Oh and essential spoken, a dominant functioned chord can be anything with the harmonic and melodic guide tones in it. If the harmonic is missing (in a sus4 it is), the dominant character is no longer given and it's more likely a sub-dominanted chord with only the melodic guide tone in it.

    However, if you feel like discussing about theory, you're welcome to pm me
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  3. #13
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    just keep practicing mane, practice makes perfect.

  4. #14
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    Music theory helps, but it is not the end all be all of music production. Trust your ear. If it sounds good, its probably right, if it sounds bad, its probably wrong. ^these previous comments probably seem really overwhelming in talking about theory. If you do want to learn some, I'd just suggest getting a basic knowledge of chords, specifically how to build them, how to invert them, and how to add scale degrees (such as adding a seventh to make a chord C7). Don't worry about what you don't know, work with what you do know and the rest will come with time. Practice is everything!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by widekeys View Post
    Dude, I ment II-V-I Sorry, my fault. I was wondering why this wasn't right lol.
    However, ii-iv-i is without any cadence.
    Not true: the subdominant minor (iv) to tonic minor (i) is an acceptable variation of the plagal cadence.

    Oh and essential spoken, a dominant functioned chord can be anything with the harmonic and melodic guide tones in it.
    Your use of the phrase "harmonic and melodic guide tones" is opaque: what is your intent in using such lazy terminology? Any tone scale or chromatic can be a melodic tone against a given chord. All tones within a given chord are harmonic tones.

    If the harmonic is missing (in a sus4 it is), the dominant character is no longer given and it's more likely a sub-dominanted chord with only the melodic guide tone in it.
    Again, I have never read anything or received instruction to this effect (and I have read a lot of books on music theory, dealing with, variously, classical, Baroque, ars nova, secunda practica, jazz, bepop, etc).

    I understand that you are trying to push the fact that with the leading tone absent the chord does not have a harmonic push into the I.

    This is only part of the dominant function - resolution of the leading tone to the tonic, by starting with the tonic as the sus 4, the resolution is subsumed in what is still a dominant chord.

    Dominant function is more to do with the bass movement of 5-1 either as an upward 4th or downward 5th.

    The type of dominant function you are referring to is the nexus between the 3rd and the 7th of the dominant 7th chord - the 3rd (scale tone 7) pushes up and the 7th (scale tone 4) pushes down to resolve to the major 3rd diad of the tonic chord

    Of course in extended dominant function such as V7b9 we are left with the possibility of the 3rd pushing down and the 7th pushing up, each by semitone to arrive at the flat super-tonic #IV, the chord that is a tritone away from the tonic.....
    Last edited by bandcoach; 03-20-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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  6. #16
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    no offense man Oo this gets a hit of topic.
    I respect you and your work. especially that you try to get others into harmonic.

    but you're not the only man with musical background, and even if you're the good guy correcting others, i feel a bit like being pushed down by you.
    My knowledge posted here is correct and also based on lessons and books, i'm sorry if you are not 100% my opinion, but posting whole lessons here is a bit over the top.
    everyone knows you and your knowledge. we thank you forsharing it with us.
    I'd love if you'd have a review at my music, there is a post here, so you understand my musical background.
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