Key Signature and Root Note....???

[Chew_Bear]

Key signature is the same thing as the root note in music theory/composition right...???

Meaning the terms are interchangeable right..??

So for instance....Can I say:

I am trying to find the "root note" or "Key Signature" of this song I really like.

Or am I totally wrong and their properties and meanings of these terms....mean 2 different things/areas of music composition.

Thanks.

 

[Pumpthrust]

Not necessarily.
When we refer to "key signature", we are talking about the number of sharps or flats within a key

When talking about "root note" we are referring to the note that is the basis (bass or lowest note) of a chord. Like, " Bb is the root of a Bb major triad".

When talking about scales, we would call the starting note (the first note) the "tonic" of whatever scale we are referring to, though some people say "root note" of the scale.

 

[Chew_Bear]

Basically…what I want to know is…

What part of a song or discipline of music theory (chord, melody, scale, root note) determines the “KEY” of a song….???

Because I started exploring music theory in regards to key signatures, scales, chords and melodies and nowhere could I find what determines the key of a song.

The thing is…I firstly come from a DJing background and in DJing…we have something called “mixing in key”. Meaning…it’s harmonically and musically better for us to mix 2 songs together that are “in key” or that complement each other in regards to their key.

You see…On a basic and fundamental level I have a natural ear/ability for knowing when 2 songs complement each other musically and vice versa when they don’t and therefore create a clash.

So…even with the little music theory that I have… I know why it’s musically and harmonically necessary for me to mix 2 songs together in regards to their key. So naturally...when I came across key signatures in music theory...I immediately came to the conclusion that it also had to do with the key of song.

But...I know I am wrong and therefore the reason for my confusion….and that is the “THEORY” part!!!!

Basically…when we DJ’s refer to finding the key of a song…..

1. What we really mean is finding the “root note” of the lowest/bass note of the song’s main chord progression as what you just stated….right…???

Because the root note is what is used to determine the key of a song…right…??

2. Its definitely not the key signature like how I thought and isn’t the "sharps" and "flats" you mentioned...right…???

And if it is different…than to that extent…What’s the difference between the key signature (sharps/flats) and the musical key (root note) of a song…???

Hopefully that made sense. Hopefully there is also a DJ in here that knows what I am talking about and can chime in.

Thanks.

Music Theory is sooooo Complicating and Difficult. Its also BORING. But its easily the most essential and important for all things music and audio too. Ugggghhhhh.

 

[Pumpthrust]

OK great because this brings up a really interesting situation for me....

I firstly come from a DJing background and in DJing...We have something called "Mixing in Key".

Meaning we would have to go and find the "Key" of a song and than match it to another song that we wanted to play and than mix those 2 songs together to create a musically and Harmonically coherent mix.

Basically...I use a program called "Mixed in Key" where I can put as many songs that I want in it....and it will retrieve the "key" of every song.

My music theory background is still very young and I am still learning. So I have no "real world" music theory technique to aid me in finding out the key of my songs. I really 100% on mixed in key to be 100% correct on determining the key of the song.

So to that end...even though I use that program to help me find out the key of my songs...I do have a natural "ability" and ear for knowing when 2 songs can be mixed together for a coherent mix and also vice versa when 2 songs are not melding together and clashing harmonically.

Questions:

1. So...When most DJ's talk about finding the key of a song...they are actually referring to the "root note" or bass/lowest note of the chord in a song right...???

Because that's what is used to determine the key of song (At least based on my DJ experience and the program I use right...???)

2. It definitely isn't the key signature that you talk about being sharps and flats right....???

Hopefully what I said makes sense and hopefully there is someone with a DJ background that can help me out.

Thanks.

I used to Dj back in the day, from '98 to '05, so I stopped right about the time this "mixing in key" stuff came to be.

1.When DJ's talk about finding the key of a song, they are almost always going about it the wrong way the moment they start talking about "root notes". Since songs use many chords, it makes more sense (and is more accurate) to hear chord function to find the key of a tune. Just because someone is mixing tunes doesn't mean it doesn't apply. One note won't tell you anything because keys aren't made up of one note. What happens when you have to mix a song that doesn't stay in one key for its duration? What happens when a tune "borrows" a chord from another key? How do you account for dissonance while in the mix? How do you harmonically find the point to start the blend?

2. It definitely is. Since when is it not?

 

[Pumpthrust]

Basically…what I want to know is…

What part of a song or discipline of music theory (chord, melody, scale, root note) determines the “KEY” of a song….???

Because I started exploring music theory in regards to key signatures, scales, chords and melodies and nowhere could I find what determines the key of a song.

The thing is…I firstly come from a DJing background and in DJing…we have something called “mixing in key”. Meaning…it’s harmonically and musically better for us to mix 2 songs together that are “in key” or that complement each other in regards to their key.

You see…On a basic and fundamental level I have a natural ear/ability for knowing when 2 songs complement each other musically and vice versa when they don’t and therefore create a clash.

So…even with the little music theory that I have… I know why it’s musically and harmonically necessary for me to mix 2 songs together in regards to their key. So naturally...when I came across key signatures in music theory...I immediately came to the conclusion that it also had to do with the key of song.

But...I know I am wrong and therefore the reason for my confusion….and that is the “THEORY” part!!!!

Basically…when we DJ’s refer to finding the key of a song…..

1. What we really mean is finding the “root note” of the lowest/bass note of the song’s main chord progression as what you just stated….right…???

Because the root note is what is used to determine the key of a song…right…??

2. Its definitely not the key signature like how I thought and isn’t the "sharps" and "flats" you mentioned...right…???

And if it is different…than to that extent…What’s the difference between the key signature (sharps/flats) and the musical key (root note) of a song…???

Hopefully that made sense. Hopefully there is also a DJ in here that knows what I am talking about and can chime in.

Thanks.

Music Theory is sooooo Complicating and Difficult. Its also BORING. But its easily the most essential and important for all things music and audio too. Ugggghhhhh.

Okay, since you changed your second post....

1. When talking about a tune, chord function is what determines the key of a song. Key signature are the number of sharps or flats (accidentals) that belong to that key based upon the scale the chords of that key are derived from.
For example: The key sig of the G major key is one sharp. This is because the chords of the G major key are built from the G major scale-which has one sharp.
G A B C D E F# G

Don't think about it any harder than that-just repeat what I wrote above to yourself 100x and it will make sense.
To reiterate: YOU DO NOT USE A "ROOT NOTE" TO FIND THE KEY OF A SONG.
"ROOT NOTE" REFER TO THE BASS NOTE (LOWEST NOTE) OF A CHORD FROM WHICH THE OTHER NOTES OF THE CHORD CORRESPOND TO.


2. Music theory is only complicating and difficult when one REFUSES to understand it.

 

[Chew_Bear]

I used to Dj back in the day, from '98 to '05, so I stopped right about the time this "mixing in key" stuff came to be.

1.When DJ's talk about finding the key of a song, they are almost always going about it the wrong way the moment they start talking about "root notes". Since songs use many chords, it makes more sense (and is more accurate) to hear chord function to find the key of a tune. Just because someone is mixing tunes doesn't mean it doesn't apply. One note won't tell you anything because keys aren't made up of one note. What happens when you have to mix a song that doesn't stay in one key for its duration? What happens when a tune "borrows" a chord from another key? How do you account for dissonance while in the mix? How do you harmonically find the point to start the blend?

2. It definitely is. Since when is it not?

Im sorry Pumpthrust. But you kind of lost me there. I really don't understand half of the stuff you said.

I re-edited my post. Read it again and hopefully you can better understand me and give me a more specific response I can understand.

Apologies for my limited music theory so If you can tie it all together with the music theory part...I would really appreciate that.

Thanks.

 

[Chew_Bear]

Okay, since you changed your second post....

1. When talking about a tune, chord function is what determines the key of a song. Key signature are the number of sharps or flats (accidentals) that belong to that key based upon the scale the chords of that key are derived from.
For example: The key sig of the G major key is one sharp. This is because the chords of the G major key are built from the G major scale-which has one sharp.
G A B C D E F# G

Don't think about it any harder than that-just repeat what I wrote above to yourself 100x and it will make sense.
To reiterate: YOU DO NOT USE A "ROOT NOTE" TO FIND THE KEY OF A SONG.
"ROOT NOTE" REFER TO THE BASS NOTE (LOWEST NOTE) OF A CHORD FROM WHICH THE OTHER NOTES OF THE CHORD CORRESPOND TO.


2. Music theory is only complicating and difficult when one REFUSES to understand it.

Haha LOL. Ignore my other post as you already seen that I edited it and now I understand.

 

[Chew_Bear]

Okay, since you changed your second post....

1. When talking about a tune, chord function is what determines the key of a song. Key signature are the number of sharps or flats (accidentals) that belong to that key based upon the scale the chords of that key are derived from.
For example: The key sig of the G major key is one sharp. This is because the chords of the G major key are built from the G major scale-which has one sharp.
G A B C D E F# G

Don't think about it any harder than that-just repeat what I wrote above to yourself 100x and it will make sense.
To reiterate: YOU DO NOT USE A "ROOT NOTE" TO FIND THE KEY OF A SONG.
"ROOT NOTE" REFER TO THE BASS NOTE (LOWEST NOTE) OF A CHORD FROM WHICH THE OTHER NOTES OF THE CHORD CORRESPOND TO.


2. Music theory is only complicating and difficult when one REFUSES to understand it.

Hey Pumpthrust...

Sorry for all the newbieness. Could you link me to a video, article or post that would make it "hit home" and make it "sink in" even more.

If you can (sorry to be asking for your precious time)....Can you give me an example of what it is your actually saying....??

Like...Can you pick a very popular song that you think I should know and than break it down as to what the chord function is and how it eventually becomes the "key" of a song.

 

[Chew_Bear]

I used to Dj back in the day, from '98 to '05, so I stopped right about the time this "mixing in key" stuff came to be.

1.When DJ's talk about finding the key of a song, they are almost always going about it the wrong way the moment they start talking about "root notes". Since songs use many chords, it makes more sense (and is more accurate) to hear chord function to find the key of a tune. Just because someone is mixing tunes doesn't mean it doesn't apply. One note won't tell you anything because keys aren't made up of one note. What happens when you have to mix a song that doesn't stay in one key for its duration? What happens when a tune "borrows" a chord from another key? How do you account for dissonance while in the mix? How do you harmonically find the point to start the blend?

2. It definitely is. Since when is it not?

You know what I am starting to understand the other half of your post here now that I started to re-read it for a second time and its application.

What happens when you have to mix a song that doesn't stay in one key for its duration?

You know what...truthfully. I never knew that songs could do this. I always thought that a song always stayed in 1 key thru out its life/duration and doesn't change.

What happens when a tune "borrows" a chord from another key?

I never knew songs could do this either. I definitely need more music theory and composition help.

How do you account for dissonance while in the mix?

I understand this and honestly its going to be different for every DJ on a situation-to-situation basis. Depending on the tunes you choose and where you decide to mix them...I guess you can say that there are always going to be some kind of dissonance and that is where good beat matching skills come into play. I guess the most essential thing is...reducing dissonance to the least amount possible so as to make the mix seamless all while keeping the crowd oblivious to the dissonance.

 

[bandcoach]

so leaving all that has been written so far - not to belittle as everything pumpthrust has written is true and accurate

however, some definitions that would eliminate 99% of the confusion

Root is the naming note for a chord it may be the bass note it may not

Tonic is the naming note for a key or mode or scale

Accidentals are the double sharp, sharp, flat, double flat or natural signs that change a note temporarily.

A key signature is the collection of sharps or flats (or both in some esoteric forms of composition) arranged in 5ths/4ths, that show the altered tones for the duration of the key signature e.g. Key signature of D major is F#-C# and these are always played as F# and C#3 unless they are altered by accidentals. If the key signature then changes to Ab major the key signature to begin with will be C natural - F natural - Bb - Eb- Ab - Db and then Bb - Eb - Ab - Db every staff thereafter

and in the last few posts the term "mix" has been used in the context of segueing between two different songs and mixing a group of tracks within the same song. Both are valid uses but are being used at cross-purposes in some of the discussion

Dissonance within a mix is not about different songs clashing but the clashing between melodic (and harmonic) ideas within a phrase or section of music -

melodically speaking dissonance is about tension and movement whereas consonance is about release and rest: e.g. the chord is C but the melodic line is B-A-F-E 3 of those 4 notes are dissonant against the C chord (which is C-E-G) but the line works because the dissonance/tension is eventually resolved/released

harmonically speaking the same ideas apply but without the melodic push