is "E phrygian" a key?

D

dastig

New member
I'm a classically trained pianist just getting to learn to modes after 10 years (they only teach us major and minor scales!!) and I'm trying to figure this out:

If I use the phrygian scale in E and have the chord progression

F G Amin C

would the chord progression, in technical terms be

II III IV VI, E phrygian

or would it be

IV V VI I, C major?
 
roman numerals are often used for tonal regions more often than modal keys, so i would go for option no. 2

however you may see a lydian blues for example where the I the IV and the V chords are all maj7 #11...

II-V-I progressions are typically dorian sounding but to avoid confusion they are wriitten as II =D min7 V= G7 I=C maj7 in the key of C major

but you will also find minor II-V progressions...

hope this helped a bit
 
it would technically be c-major. e phrydian is not a key, it is actually not a scale. it´s a mode.
you can identify keys by the V-dom7 chord, wich will make the I chord sound like the tonic. this is also the case in minor keys. a II-V-I in minor would be IImin7b5-V7b13-Iminj7 (melodic minor).
in your progression the V chord is bmin7b5 wich is not dominant sounding at all therefor giving the e minor no "tonic" sound.
 
so what's the difference between a mode and a scale then? If I write a tune using E phrygian again, for example, how can someone tell that i'm using the phrygian mode and not just C major?
i guess i'm asking, how does one make a song "phrygian sounding"?
 
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dastig said:
so what's the difference between a mode and a scale then? If I write a tune using E phrygian again, for example, how can someone tell that i'm using the phrygian mode and not just C major?
i guess i'm asking, how does one make a song "phrygian sounding"?
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No difference. Major scales = Ionian Mode. It's just the first mode and is more commonly known as the major scale.

They'll hear the difference from the notes you emphasize and the progression's resolution. The progression you have listed would probably sound like it's in C because it resolves to C and theres no Emin chord. Try a iv(A min), v(B min), VI(C), i(E min) in E Phrygian. It should express the modal sound you are looking for.

Miles Davis & John Coltrant played modal tunes all the time. The key signature will look the same, but like I said, the movement will imply the phrygian mode.
 
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If I write a tune using E phrygian again, for example, how can someone tell that i'm using the phrygian mode and not just C major?
i guess i'm asking, how does one make a song "phrygian sounding"?
Click to expand...

if it sounds like e minor. sometimes u can just tell what the 1 is.

here is an example.

Emin7 Fmaj7 Emin7 Fmaj7

or

Emin7 Cmaj Amin7 Fmaj7

try e minor pentatonic over those changes. it will give a "phrygian-ish" sound.

the way u determine what mode it is, is u decide what the 1 is.

in ur first example:
If I use the phrygian scale in E and have the chord progression
F G Amin C
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you say "the phrygian scale in E". why dont u say "the mixolydian scale in G", etc? does it SOUND like its in e? being that there would be no I chord in e, it probably be in A minor(?) depending on what the melody is. try A min pentatonic.

btw, Bezo. u made some good points, but b minor has a f# note, so thats not phrygian...
 
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thanks for all info guys, it's really helped.

just another question: there's so many modes to learn, it's a little overwhelming.. i have the basic formulas down (i.e. b7 on a major scale to get mixolydian) but it sucks having to work out the mode like that everytime i want to use one, especially if i'm trying use different modes but keep it in the same key signature. Any methods you guys use to keep track of all these in your head??
And any common ones for pop music that i should really just memorize?
 
never mind guys, i just found a thread that helped me get this stuff striaght. thanx again for your help though!!
 
dastig said:
thanks for all info guys, it's really helped.

just another question: there's so many modes to learn, it's a little overwhelming.. i have the basic formulas down (i.e. b7 on a major scale to get mixolydian) but it sucks having to work out the mode like that everytime i want to use one, especially if i'm trying use different modes but keep it in the same key signature. Any methods you guys use to keep track of all these in your head??
And any common ones for pop music that i should really just memorize?
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basically they all have a distintive sound, i think you should know how a certain mode sounds and understand how it is constructed

inonian...well major scale sound no need to go further

dorian...minor scale with a major sixth...typical in blues and jazz

Phrygian... minor scale with a FLAT second (ninth) kinda flemenco sounding

lydian...major scale with a raised fourth very nice sounding mode

mixolydian...major scale with a flat seventh... good for blues too, country, rock

aeolian...typical minor scale

locrian... minor scale with flat second, flat 5 very tense sound

melodic and harmonic minor scales have their modes too and they all have a sound too
 
All this information on modes is marvelous, but I'm still a little confused on something...

I understand that the modes are just the major scale with the starting note changed in each mode, right?

What I'm uncertain of is what mode applies to what letter key. I'll try to explain my confusion as clearly as posssible...

C Major scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

So, let's assume I wanted to start this scale from the G:

G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G

These are still the same notes of the C-Major scale except beginning on G instead of C.

Is it still C-Major? What "mode" is it? What would the title of the "scale" be?

Thanks in advance. =c)
 
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haha that was my original thread question..

i believe the answer would be: it is still in the key of C major (the key signature) but the way the music is structure would make it apparent that you are using the mixolydian mode.
 
dastig said:
haha that was my original thread question..

i believe the answer would be: it is still in the key of C major (the key signature) but the way the music is structure would make it apparent that you are using the mixolydian mode.
Click to expand...

So G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G (C-MajScale modified)
would be called...?

C-Major Mixolydian?
G Mixolydian?

lol

I'm trying to figure out what to call these things!
 
"that scale would be called G Mixolydian I believe.. but it's still in the key of C major."

that mode is g mixolydian, but it´s not necessarily in the key of c major. scales and modes don´t really have keys. songs/compositions have keys. although g mixolydian has the same notes as c ionian, the song could be in a minor. keys always indicate the harmonic center of whole songs or sections of it. for example "tears in heaven" (couldn´t come up with anything better), "all along the watchtower" and "so what" are all made of the same scale but are in the keys of c major, a minor and d minor. if you play a common blues in c (c - f -c -g- f- c)the melody could use any scale or mode; c ionian, c mixolydian (g major/ionian), c dorian (b flat ionian), c aeolian ( e flat ionian), c minor/major pentatonic...
don´t mix this up. you can play a song in a certain key but use different scales and modes to make up your melodies. the different modes have different flavours. it all dependes on the sound you want to create.
a good exercise to learn the sounds of the modes is to take a simple melody (e.g. the sesame street song) and instead of playing it in ionian, play it in dorian, phrygian, mixolydian... nice little game nerds like me used to play in mucic school.
 
that mode is g mixolydian, but it´s not necessarily in the key of c major.
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true. i hear that bs all the time around here. "it is the e phrygian scale so its in c major." WRONG! no offense, its just a mistake, but people spread alot of misinformation on the web.

the modes of c major (d dorian, g mix, etc) are derived from the c major scale. this DOES NOT MAKE THEM IN THE KEY OF C MAJOR.
 
hmm, but when you're notating a piece, which happens to make use of E phrygian or g mixolydian, isn't the key signature going to be C major? or do key signatures not necessarily denote a certain "key"?
 
hmm, but when you're notating a piece, which happens to make use of E phrygian or g mixolydian, isn't the key signature going to be C major? or do key signatures not necessarily denote a certain "key"?
Click to expand...

for modal compositions, what i have encountered for notation, is two possibilities: either no key signature at all, or, major or minor, and just write in each accidental (# or b).

for ur examples, e phrygian would have the key signature of e minor (one #) and g mix would have the key signature of g major (also one #). whenever u would see a f natural, in either example, u write it in. or, in these cases it would be easy to use no key signature, since there are no sharps or flats. does that make sense?
 
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