Do all instruments in a beat have to be in the same scale?

[koalafresh]

This question stems from general curiosity.

I've taught myself how to make beats for a year. They've been made by what sounds good to me. I've also taken courses in basic music theory. However, when I'm layering a track out lets say, piano, bass and strings. Should the instruments generally be played in the same scale? Or is this more a subject that depends on taste?

Fresh

 

[Royce Ross]

I am not a music theory expert by any means, so please excuse any information I may misconstrue...

The short answer to your question is 'yes'. When composing, all the notes you play should be in the same 'key'. All of your chords and melodies should only have the notes from that particular 'key'. But of course, you COULD have notes from outside a certain 'key', if that is to your own personal 'taste'. But on the subject of 'personal taste', each 'key' has it's own 'flavor' to it. For example, the key of 'C Major' exhibits a sound that feels 'happy, innocent, pure'. I hope this insight has answered your question.

 

[decemberdusk]

As R Ross stated, yes, most of the time... BUT there are many, many things that you can add to your tracks that gives them a more distinct "flavor," if you will, that contains a few tones that are not "diatonic" or indigenous to that scale.

For example, adding chromatic notes, or notes that are not in the scale can give the aural impression many different emotions. Use the minor key to get a "dark" or "spooky" sound. The main thing is that Major and minor are only two modes, there are seven different modes that you can use besides Major and minor. Experiment with these different modes and you expand your sound palette exponentially.

*DON'T JUST RESTRICT YOURSELF TO ONE KEY!* I was just talking about modulating in another post and it has an extreme effect when you modulate from one key to another, but you have to use tones that are not in the scale that you're using at the time... there are also common chords that help "smooth" over a modulation. Like I tell everyone, don't be afraid to experiment and "bend your ears" a bit.

You guys should be going over modes if you're in theory class... if not, ask your theory teacher about them! Have fun everyone!

 

[Axxe]

Should mostly be in the same key yes, but can be different scales. C major and C maj pentatonic overlap, two different scales. The key is the tonal center, ie. C.. ( you c? no pun intended, lol )

I often play around in C, not in maj or min mode, but simply C. That way I can use chords belonging to both modes + non-diatonic tones of course..

 

[decemberdusk]

Should mostly be in the same key yes, but can be different scales. C major and C maj pentatonic overlap, two different scales. The key is the tonal center, ie. C.. ( you c? no pun intended, lol )

I often play around in C, not in maj or min mode, but simply C. That way I can use chords belonging to both modes + non-diatonic tones of course..

No, they are NOT two different scales... you're just omitting certain tones in the pentatonic scale: same tones as in the regular scale. Still diatonic as ever.

"Penta"= FIVE, so "penatonic"= FIVE tones. Not even a variation such as in the minor mode.

Also, remember- if you are using the same tonal center, then it is not a modulation, it is called MODE MIXTURE, but that is not the case in your pentatonic example. If you went from C Major to c minor, that would be called mode mixture. If you went from C Major to a minor (the relative minor) then you would label it as a modulation becuase you change your tonal center from "C" to "a."

 

[Focused]

This question stems from general curiosity.

I've taught myself how to make beats for a year. They've been made by what sounds good to me. I've also taken courses in basic music theory. However, when I'm layering a track out lets say, piano, bass and strings. Should the instruments generally be played in the same scale? Or is this more a subject that depends on taste?

Fresh

[video=youtube;EaiB4-Dizms&feature=player_detailpage#t=220s]video[/video]

@ 3:40 into this video Notice that the bass is grooving in E Flat, but the chord progression he is hitting are in C# Major.....This happens in Jazz often

He talks about it a bit more around 7:10 but to answer your question, you can leave a scale when the other instruments are grooving in a particular key signature.

 

[decemberdusk]

This is what is called tonicization or temporary tonicization. To get "into" and "out of" the key that he was in, he used secondary function chords that paved the way to the new key. He mentioned a tritone and tritones are common in many different chromatic chords and/ or non-chord tones. The most common use of a triton is the leading-tone to the dominant chord or in roman numerals: V/V (five of five.

So, if you are in C Major, the dominant is the G Major chord. The dominant of G Major is D Major, which contains the notes (D, F#, A) if using the triad only (remember we can also use extended harmonies like sus chords, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and you can flat or sharp any of these, etc.). In C Major, F# IS NOT diatonic or part of the scale and **it is a tritone away** from the note C, the tonic note of the C Major sacle.

It's basically the dominant chord OF the dominant chord in the scale that you are in... yes, jazz does a lot of modal techniques, which is really nice. So, if you are backing up a melody with a chord, each chord that is played can be "seen" or "heard" as that specific mode. Remember, there are seven modes to play with here and we're only scratching the surface... only the tip of the iceberg. Let's keep this topic going!

 

[3ternal]

Also IMO what needs to be clarified here is that notes don't really have any specific sound but rather the interval between notes.

 

[decemberdusk]

"Notes don't really have any specific sound?" Are you speaking philosophically here? Something akin to that old musical adage: "it's not the notes you play, but the silence between them..."

I doubt you're being literal about your statement. Yes, any one, lone note singing all by it's lonesome self cannot really give you any indication of what will come next, which will in turn give the listener some idea of tonality, but how many pieces do you know of that only has one note the entire track? I cannot recall any off of the top my head...

One note has specific frequencies within itself and we give each note a value (e.g. A 4 (above middle C) = 440 Hz). If you go up one octave, multiply that number by two. Divide by two if moving down one octave, so on and so forth. Every single note has a different Hz value.

You also have the overtone series which is basically when all the tones above a sounding note are heard, but the fundamental pitch (the one you're playing) is heard the loudest and that's why the Major scale sounds so right= because it is naturally occurring in the physics of sound.

Ever wonder why some chords sound right (consonant) and some sound like they clash (dissonant)? This is why, the overtone series is either in sync or literally causing close out-of-sync rhythms within themselves.

Back to your one note theory: We are brainwashed into tonality, it's everywhere and the ear will want to hear tonality for this reason. The German composer Arnold Schoenberg hatched a new device of composition where a tonal center could be totally avoided and it is called Serialism. This makes use of all twelve tones of the octave using mathematics to write music... I'm sorry to say, but the ear will still make tonal associations even though he tired to avoid it. So, yes, one note will not make the scale, but give a couple of notes after that and the brain/ ear will begin to guess the tonality of the piece/ track/ song/ symphony/ et al. Peace.

 

[jackhzrd]

The answer to the OP is a big, fat, definitive yes IF you want to make commercially viable music. You don't hear P Diddy throwin' in 13th chords and change ups and thinking about his freakin' modal centre!

James Brown? Man, it's the same chord over and over and over.

Deadmau5? Lady Gaga? Mr Goo goo? It's not about theory here mmmkay? Just about creating a cool, original hook with a cutting edge, original sound whether it's the bassline, the drums, a stab or combination.

You wanna make jazz, wank off to fusion or impress your musician friends, knock yourself out, break all the rules, hell, make a 4 bar chorus with each bar in a different key and time sig...chances are 2% of the music listening population might NOT be repulsed.

Peace

 

[jackhzrd]

if you listen to dr dre/ganster rap music there are tons of "accidental " (notes that are no in the key) in those wining synth leads...

same holds true for the parlament funkedelic samples that are chopped up...

That's true!! But those are mainly one off single notes that are off the scale or detuned with the pitch mod wheel, just to keep it interesting, and I'd argue that they happen through jamming and chance, NOT through deep theoretical analysis of the mixolydian centre of the second movement. In general, the underlying beat itself doesn't go crazy with key switching or exploring the more complex chords.

A great example is Hey Ya by Outkast. Really really interesting and engaging track, but the chords and melodies (albeit beautiful and genius) are totally bread and butter.

 

[jackhzrd]

so the question is.... where do you draw the line?

there is a very thin line between simplicity and complexity...

to the OP poster... it is your song... if you want "accidentals" use them if not dont....

There is no line, but the general parameters usually are:

1. One song in the same key throughout and all tonal instruments follow the same scale

2. Basic chords only, maybe some 7ths thrown in, but usually no need to bother with 9ths, 11ths, 13ths etc

3. 3-4 chords in the progression per part (verse, chorus, bridge) is in the money

4. It's all about the central hook

5. it's even more about the main vocal(ist)

6. theme it around relationships, partying, sex or money

7. keep it over 3 and under 4 minutes

8. give the record exec some ass and your dandy

 

[decemberdusk]

what happen if you are in the key of C maj and play a C blues scale over a progression in C maj...

because in a C blues scale there is C - Eb - F - F# - G - Bb and Eb/F#/Bb are not in the key of C maj...

this just one examples... i have others...

Good question and I hope that I am helping out here! If you are playing a C major scale with a C blues penta ( or any of the non-Ionian pentas... better yet, any other scale for that matter) then it is NOT a C Major scale anymore. It is some awkward variation that consolidates the two. If you have all of those half-steps (minor 2nds) against each other, then your harmonic functions go out the window. I'm not sure how you will harmonically support all the clashing tones in this genre.

Your ear will hear either the C Major scale with non- chord tones or vice versa (maybe even an extension of the penta), but it won't sound like a C major scale accompanied by a C penta Blues. The two scales you speak of together will give the impression of extreme extended harmonies that are very uncommon (not in the good, "that dude is out there" way either). It will sound like a C major scale with wrong notes.

I'd be interested in listening to a track where you are playing a C major chord against a C minor chord in the genre that you produce. Also, if you are willing to discuss the dynamics/ philosophy of bi-tonality/ polytoanility (which is where this topic is headed) then I'd be more than happy to do that! I really appreciate the questions about theory here on the forum, you guys are awesome! Happy producing and I hope to see more questions soon. Peace.

 

[jackhzrd]

problem with #2 - 9th chords on the guitar is the funk... must have the funk...

but on the real... if that is your formula and it works... cool!!!

for me... if a tune works... it works...

no parameters... general or otherwise...

Well the 9th is totally necessary for funk, but hip hop ain't nearly as funky today as it should be, the way it was!

It's not MY formula because I don't make commercial music, but anyone who is striving for that, should stick to that formula because that's what's dominating the top 20 right now. Sad but true!

 

[LostProfit]

I think we underestimate how much dissonance the mainstream audience are prepared for. To use a cliche portmanteau, 'complex simplicity' is the key. Like the Dr Dre sine lead example or perhaps some of the Timbaland and Just Blaze stuff like Erick Sermon's 'React' style production, there is plenty of room to detune, rhythmically syncopate and get chromatic around single scales.

 

[decemberdusk]

I think we underestimate how much dissonance the mainstream audience are prepared for. To use a cliche portmanteau, 'complex simplicity' is the key. Like the Dr Dre sine lead example or perhaps some of the Timbaland and Just Blaze stuff like Erick Sermon's 'React' style production, there is plenty of room to detune, rhythmically syncopate and get chromatic around single scales.

I cannot agree with you enough; I'd love to hear more dissonance in the current sound. The problem is that most of the general listening population will begin to assume that the more dissonant music is some sort of esoteric sub-genre of Hip hop- not the mainstream... the only people that I believe can really introduce a more complex sound and make a real difference are the ones at the top of the charts, but you see, that's too risky for them. Why risk falling out of public favor when making easy, understandable music is what sells?

I believe that 90% of the listening population is turned off when they hear a type of music that they cannot "understand" right off the bat. I've witnessed this unfortunate phenomenon millions of times. Most don't want to take the time to figure out something that is new and doesn't have that "paint by numbers" formula.

The fear of falling out of the number one spot will keep music where it is , that is, until one brave soul will introduce a VERY SMALL DOSE of something new and then they will be the revolutionary, until this happens again. It's so predictably cyclical.

Why doesn't one of the lesser known producers just "make a scene" with something revolutionary? Because they are the lesser known, not enough people will pay attention to what they are doing to make a fuss or appreciate it.

Classical music in the 21st Century is shooting in every possible direction- atonality, Neo-Romanticism,Neo-Classicism and eclecticism to the point of even throwing the kitchen sink into the music. My point is that in Classical music, being way the f**k out in left field is favored by many people... not so much in the mainstream and popular genres of music today.

 

[hezekiah74]

For me I simply learned the 7 chords in a few comfortable scales. That would be the Maj, Min, Min, Maj, 7th, Min, Dom.

A lot of the theory puts people off, but basically learn the chords for a particular scale and experiment at what points you can jump into another scale. Many scales share chords - that's the transition point.

Reading too much theory will discourage you - experiment !!!

 

[ColinFinnety]

The answer to the OP is a big, fat, definitive yes IF you want to make commercially viable music. You don't hear P Diddy throwin' in 13th chords and change ups and thinking about his freakin' modal centre!

James Brown? Man, it's the same chord over and over and over.

Deadmau5? Lady Gaga? Mr Goo goo? It's not about theory here mmmkay? Just about creating a cool, original hook with a cutting edge, original sound whether it's the bassline, the drums, a stab or combination.

You should check out Gaga's chord progressions; they often modulate all over the place. Plus she writes her own music. After all, she studied music compo at NYU.

Lots of pop music incorporates complex arrangements, but because it is all tucked away in such a subtle manner, you never hear it.

I recall specifically some song of rihanna's had a chord progression along the lines of Gmaj7, C#dmin, Fmaj13 + a few more in the same vein, which is some pretty inense modulation for pop music.

 

[bandcoach]

You should check out Gaga's chord progressions; they often modulate all over the place. Plus she writes her own music. After all, she studied music compo at NYU.

Lots of pop music incorporates complex arrangements, but because it is all tucked away in such a subtle manner, you never hear it.

I recall specifically some song of rihanna's had a chord progression along the lines of Gmaj7, C#dmin, Fmaj13 + a few more in the same vein, which is some pretty inense modulation for pop music.

And go back a few decades and you will find the same sort of stuff in Whitney Houston's stuff

Go back further and we start to look at the Jazz crossover artists using the same stuff, but yeah, to limit yourself to one key is like only eating vanilla icecream or having the same hamburger for lunch everyday - it's B O R I N G

 

[EirikJ]

It's a good thing to learn basic music theory, but the general rule is to trust your ears first and foremost. If it sounds good, it's good. But learning about chord progressions isn't a bad idea.