Chord Progressions (7ths & Inversions)

T

typhy

New member
I'm fairly new to producing and was wanting to get into R&B type beats.
My favorite producer of this genre would have to be Ryan Leslie.
I have a question about chord progressions.
I know R&B uses a lot of 7th and 9th chords usually in minor scales.
Say I have a chord (triads) progression of: i-III-iv-v

Maybe I wanna throw in some 7ths into that mix.. would all 4 chords have to turn into 7ths? Or do I just pick random ones to throw the 7th note into? How about inversions? When is the appropriate time to use an inversion? I'm a noobie so everything I've ever made was always basic major/minor triad chord progressions.

I want to add some flavor and originality into my chords.. any help?

---------- Post added at 02:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

Also, I'm having a difficult time coming up with melodies. I watch all of Ryan Leslie studio sessions where he's making these amazing beats and can't help but wonder how he comes up with all those beautiful melodic leads. I watch them over and over but can't seem to create my own without subconsciously copying his, lol!

So the question is... what are some good techniques for coming up with a melody? How many notes should a melody consist of? Most of my melodies have a "ballad" type rhythm to them which I don't want. I want the catchy, poppish, funky type melodies that Ryan Leslie and Johnny Juliano usually compose. Are there any secrets for melodies you guys might share with me?
 
typhy said:
I'm fairly new to producing and was wanting to get into R&B type beats.
My favorite producer of this genre would have to be Ryan Leslie.
I have a question about chord progressions.
I know R&B uses a lot of 7th and 9th chords usually in minor scales.
Say I have a chord (triads) progression of: i-III-iv-v

Maybe I wanna throw in some 7ths into that mix.. would all 4 chords have to turn into 7ths? Or do I just pick random ones to throw the 7th note into? How about inversions? When is the appropriate time to use an inversion? I'm a noobie so everything I've ever made was always basic major/minor triad chord progressions.

I want to add some flavor and originality into my chords.. any help?

---------- Post added at 02:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

Also, I'm having a difficult time coming up with melodies. I watch all of Ryan Leslie studio sessions where he's making these amazing beats and can't help but wonder how he comes up with all those beautiful melodic leads. I watch them over and over but can't seem to create my own without subconsciously copying his, lol!

So the question is... what are some good techniques for coming up with a melody? How many notes should a melody consist of? Most of my melodies have a "ballad" type rhythm to them which I don't want. I want the catchy, poppish, funky type melodies that Ryan Leslie and Johnny Juliano usually compose. Are there any secrets for melodies you guys might share with me?
Click to expand...

I didn't watch the video that was posted in the reply, so forgive me if I am redundant. It's all a matter of personal taste, but if you're using a "i-III-iv-V" and you want to throw some extended harmonies in there, well the COMMON progression (using 7ths) would *usually* look like this:
i minor 7, III Major 7, iv minor 7 and then V7 (Dominant 7th, which is a Major triad with a minor 7th).

Common 7th chords have specific 7ths, as follows:

If the triad is Major you use a Major 7th or minor 7th if you want a dominant function.
If the triad is minor the 7th is minor.
If the triad is diminished your can use a minor 7th for a half-diminished 7th or a diminished 7th for a fully-diminished 7th.

There are many variations on these, but these are common in the commercial genres and the fully diminished 7ths are pushing it :)

Now, take "voicing" into consideration as well, which is where the inversions come in. People use inversions to make a chord progression smoother and not having the notes jump all over the place... It really does help out with the sound and to change things up. Using an all root-position chord progression can get very boring quickly... again a matter of personal taste- NO dogmatic rules that are really set in stone, just common practices.

If you want a 9th, just keep the 7ths in there and pop a 9th in there. Again "common practices" consist of keeping the 9th ABOVE the 7th. So, keep your 7th in there and place the 9th in the upper instrument/ voice. So, I would voice a C M7 add 9 like this:

From the lowest bass note up---> (C,E,B,D) notice I left the 5th chord tone out. So, I have the root (C), the third (E), the Major 7th (B) and the 9th on top (D). Make it B flat for a more dominant feel. Hope this helps out!
 
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You are a great help to this sextion of the forum Mr. Decemberdusk! You really seem to know your stuff when it comes with music theory (especially with chord progressions). I was hoping you can explain something to me about this link here:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/circleprogressions.html

In the second paragraph I quote, "the possible progression combinations that can be created using the circle of fifths are almost endless". I'm trying to understand this because I am wanting to put together chord progressions for making beats (mainly popular music like Pop, R&B, and Electro Pop). It says you can start on any letter (chord) and move clockwise or counter-clockwise and have a progression that moves in perfect fifths which is the strongest "pull" for chords.

What I dont understand is that how are the possibilities endless? It just goes in a circle and repeats. Can you explain how I can use that to create "endless possibilities" of chord progressions?
 
typhy said:
You are a great help to this sextion of the forum Mr. Decemberdusk! You really seem to know your stuff when it comes with music theory (especially with chord progressions). I was hoping you can explain something to me about this link here:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/circleprogressions.html

In the second paragraph I quote, "the possible progression combinations that can be created using the circle of fifths are almost endless". I'm trying to understand this because I am wanting to put together chord progressions for making beats (mainly popular music like Pop, R&B, and Electro Pop). It says you can start on any letter (chord) and move clockwise or counter-clockwise and have a progression that moves in perfect fifths which is the strongest "pull" for chords.

What I dont understand is that how are the possibilities endless? It just goes in a circle and repeats. Can you explain how I can use that to create "endless possibilities" of chord progressions?
Click to expand...

Hey! Thanks for the comment and I really enjoy helping out with information about music when my knowledge allows me to.

Well, if you understand how the circle-of-fifths works, then I'm guessing that the "endless" progression that is mentioned in the article is about how you can add many different chords to ANY progression.

For example, it's like adding adjectives to a simple sentence to spice things up and make it more expressive and colorful.

There are many chords that you can use to either make the progression more expressive or to prolong the progression.

So, let me give you an example here then I'll explain:

Simple progression: I, vi, IV, V7, I. Done.

Well, this is one of hundreds of possibilities that will add flavor to the progression given:
I, V7/vi, vi, ii/IV, V add 9/ IV, IV, French Aug 6, I 6/4, V add 9, I.

I just randomly came up with this elaboration of the "simple" chord progression that is FUNCTIONAL IN TONAL HARMONY. These chords all move smoothly into each other and sound great because of the circle-of-fifths and "secondary functions" that temporarily move outside of the key. Then when your melody moves with it, BAM! you have a HOT TRACK burnin' through your speakers.

Let me briefly explain the chord progression:

I- this is your first chord that "grounds" the listener in the key...

V7/vi- now move to the "dominant of the vi chord"

vi- followed 99.99% of the time by the chord that was previously "tonicized" by its dominant.

ii/IV- now I'm using *TWO* chords from the scale that the four chord is in. I start with the "ii" chord, then since the ii chord goes smoothly to the V (dominant chord), -->

V add 9/ IV- I go to the dominant of the IV chord, spiced up by a 9th

IV- as I said, resolve it to the chord that you are using the "borrowed" or "secondary function" chords from

French Aug 6- a pre-dominant extension that resolve to the V chord

I 6/4- but wait, this 2nd inversion I chord builds even more want for resolution

V add 9- now, we're getting close to going back "home"

I- back home and the ear is satisfied for a while.

NOTE: Inversions should be used to make each chord move smoothly to the other chord and to avoid jumping around and such, unless that is the type of sound that you want...

Now, there are literally hundreds of chordal combination that you can choose and then jazz takes it even further than traditional tonal harmony. Just keep studying music theory for a while and you'll start to come up with this stuff on your own.

I LOVE music theory and compose classical music as well (symphonies, chamber music, etc.) and music theory is a guide. It doesn't restrict as some believe, but gives you more tools in your tool box to build with. I break the rules in every piece I write, but I know how to and I have material from the music theory training I have to build from.

Please keep asking questions when you have them and ask me to clarify if I was vague on something and I will explain it in more detail. Happy producing!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
decemberdusk said:
Hey! Thanks for the comment and I really enjoy helping out with information about music when my knowledge allows me to.

Well, if you understand how the circle-of-fifths works, then I'm guessing that the "endless" progression that is mentioned in the article is about how you can add many different chords to ANY progression.

For example, it's like adding adjectives to a simple sentence to spice things up and make it more expressive and colorful.

There are many chords that you can use to either make the progression more expressive or to prolong the progression.

So, let me give you an example here then I'll explain:

Simple progression: I, vi, IV, V7, I. Done.

Well, this is one of hundreds of possibilities that will add flavor to the progression given:
I, V7/vi, vi, ii/IV, V add 9/ IV, IV, French Aug 6, I 6/4, V add 9, I.

I just randomly came up with this elaboration of the "simple" chord progression that is FUNCTIONAL IN TONAL HARMONY. These chords all move smoothly into each other and sound great because of the circle-of-fifths and "secondary functions" that temporarily move outside of the key. Then when your melody moves with it, BAM! you have a HOT TRACK burnin' through your speakers.

Let me briefly explain the chord progression:

I- this is your first chord that "grounds" the listener in the key...

V7/vi- now move to the "dominant of the vi chord"

vi- followed 99.99% of the time by the chord that was previously "tonicized" by its dominant.

ii/IV- now I'm using *TWO* chords from the scale that the four chord is in. I start with the "ii" chord, then since the ii chord goes smoothly to the V (dominant chord), -->

V add 9/ IV- I go to the dominant of the IV chord, spiced up by a 9th

IV- as I said, resolve it to the chord that you are using the "borrowed" or "secondary function" chords from

French Aug 6- a pre-dominant extension that resolve to the V chord

I 6/4- but wait, this 2nd inversion I chord builds even more want for resolution

V add 9- now, we're getting close to going back "home"

I- back home and the ear is satisfied for a while.

NOTE: Inversions should be used to make each chord move smoothly to the other chord and to avoid jumping around and such, unless that is the type of sound that you want...

Now, there are literally hundreds of chordal combination that you can choose and then jazz takes it even further than traditional tonal harmony. Just keep studying music theory for a while and you'll start to come up with this stuff on your own.

I LOVE music theory and compose classical music as well (symphonies, chamber music, etc.) and music theory is a guide. It doesn't restrict as some believe, but gives you more tools in your tool box to build with. I break the rules in every piece I write, but I know how to and I have material from the music theory training I have to build from.

Please keep asking questions when you have them and ask me to clarify if I was vague on something and I will explain it in more detail. Happy producing!
Click to expand...
Does the I, V, etc represent the key scale? im sorry if its a dumb question
 
master chief said:
Does the I, V, etc represent the key scale? im sorry if its a dumb question
Click to expand...

Man, there aren't any dumb questions! It' s a perfect question if you ask me. Here's what the roman numerals represent:

This is just a guide, don't let it prevent you from *doing anything*, just a suggestion that has been used for centuries... let your experimentation and creativity be the limit! Once you learn this suggestion, then find new ways to bend it all around to form something new!

For a general rule of thumb- upper case numerals represents a Major chord, lower case numerals represents a minor chord, lower case with a symbol like this ø represents a half-diminished 7th chord and a symbol like this ° represents a fully diminished chord. So, a "c ø 7" is a c half-diminished 7th chord (c, e flat, g flat and a). "c °"is a fully diminished chord. In jazz, this would be represented as in:
"c min b 5" or "c- b5"

So, the all major scales look like this:

I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii° Given my previous explanation, you can figure out what each chord is... Major chord, minor chord, etc.

In the minor scale (there are two variations on the 'natural minor' which are labeled 'melodic' and 'harmonic.'

Natural- i, ii°, III, iv, v (minor dominant is unusul), VI, VII
Harmonic- i, ii°, III (III+ almost never used), iv, V, VI, vii°

I'll save the melodic for a later time since it has a different version ascending and descending.

These are the building blocks to chord progressions... just the foundation that becomes the endless possibilities. Jazz theory goes even further into bending this all around and I love it! Hope this helps you out.
 
decemberdusk said:
Man, there aren't any dumb questions! It' s a perfect question if you ask me. Here's what the roman numerals represent:

This is just a guide, don't let it prevent you from *doing anything*, just a suggestion that has been used for centuries... let your experimentation and creativity be the limit! Once you learn this suggestion, then find new ways to bend it all around to form something new!

For a general rule of thumb- upper case numerals represents a Major chord, lower case numerals represents a minor chord, lower case with a symbol like this ø represents a half-diminished 7th chord and a symbol like this ° represents a fully diminished chord. So, a "cø 7" is a c half-diminished 7th chord (c, e flat, g flat and a). "c °"is a fully diminished chord. In jazz, this would be represented as in:
"c min b 5" or "c- b5"

So, the all major scales look like this:

I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii° Given my previous explanation, you can figure out what each chord is... Major chord, minor chord, etc.

In the minor scale (there are two variations on the 'natural minor' which are labeled 'melodic' and 'harmonic.'

Natural- i, ii°, III, iv, v (minor dominant is unusul), VI, VII
Harmonic- i, ii°, III (III+ almost never used), iv, V, VI, vii°

I'll save the melodic for a later time since it has a different version ascending and descending.

These are the building blocks to chord progressions... just the foundation that becomes the endless possibilities. Jazz theory goes even further into bending this all around and I love it! Hope this helps you out.
Click to expand...
nicccce thanks alot man def helpful
 
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