Chord Progressions

TDOT

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Hey FP question on progressions
When studying the cycle of fifths I encountered an issue stillllllllll.

For example:
1I///[SUP]b[/SUP]III///[SUP]b[/SUP]VII///IV///
CE[SUP]b[/SUP]B[SUP]b[/SUP]F
C-E-GE[SUP]b[/SUP]-G-B[SUP]b[/SUP]B[SUP]b[/SUP]-D-FF-A-C

as from my understanding,
Cycle of fifths for C Major if you move from I to III wouldn't it be C to E??? If you're in C Mojor I didn't think it could move to Eb because it's not in the cycle, please explain lol thought I had this covered but getting confused again
Hope I'm explaining it right
 
Cycle of fifths for C Major if you move from I to III wouldn't it be C to E??? If you're in C Mojor I didn't think it could move to Eb because it's not in the cycle, please explain lol thought I had this covered but getting confused again
Hope I'm explaining it right

There is no major third in the C major scale. Eb is the third in the C minor scale. Let me just say now, if it sounds good then it sounds good. Your example reminds me of BandCoach how it seems intentionally confusing lol. You are aware you can move either way on the circle, correct? One way I remember 'circular movement' is by remember 7-3-6-2-5-1-4. If you look on the circle take the C major scale for example, you'll see B-E-A-D-G-C-F. Also, I hope you're aware that the 6th degree of every major scale is it's relative minor & therefore the 3rd degree of every minor scale is it's relative major. I've even made my own chart from the scales & it helped me realize the pattern & how they all relate to each other. If you did that you would notice the B-E-A-D-G-C-F pattern whether the notes are sharp/flat. Not tryna go too into it if I'm not helpin, but I just don't rly understand what you're asking specifically....?
 
Hey FP question on progressions
When studying the cycle of fifths I encountered an issue stillllllllll.

For example:
1I///[SUP]b[/SUP]III///[SUP]b[/SUP]VII///IV///
CE[SUP]b[/SUP]B[SUP]b[/SUP]F
C-E-GE[SUP]b[/SUP]-G-B[SUP]b[/SUP]B[SUP]b[/SUP]-D-FF-A-C
TD][/TD]

as from my understanding,

so far so good......


Cycle of fifths for C Major if you move from I to III wouldn't it be C to E??? If you're in C Mojor I didn't think it could move to Eb because it's not in the cycle, please explain lol thought I had this covered but getting confused again
Hope I'm explaining it right

Ignore the C major thing, as the example is not really a cycle of 5ths in C major but a Cycle of 4ths in B[sup]b[/sup] with C major as a borrowed chord

C:I///[SUP]b[/SUP]III///[SUP]b[/SUP]VII///IV///
CE[SUP]b[/SUP]B[SUP]b[/SUP]F
C-E-GE[SUP]b[/SUP]-G-B[SUP]b[/SUP]B[SUP]b[/SUP]-D-FF-A-C
B[sup]b[/sup]:V-of-VIVIV
TD][/TD]

i.e. the progression is moving through the cycle of 4ths based in B[sup]b[/sup]

Even better consider that you are moving this way

E[sup]b[/sup]->B[sup]b[/sup]->F->C
IV of B[sup]b[/sup]IV of FIV of C

better still, think of this as a modal progression.... where the rules are not as insanely applied...


There is no major third in the C major scale.

yes there is a major 3rd in the C major scale; by definition the 3rd note of the scale must be a Major 3rd above C otherwise it would be some other form of scale or mode

CCPerfectUnison
CDMajor2nd
CEMajor3rd
CFPerfect4th
CGPerfect5th
CAMajor6th
CBMajor7th
CC'Perfect8ve

Eb is the third in the C minor scale. Let me just say now, if it sounds good then it sounds good. Your example reminds me of BandCoach how it seems intentionally confusing lol.

Strangely enough, it appears to have been lifted from my website intact..........

I probably should go back and break that section down into major and modal progressions.....
 
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Thanks guys that sort of helped, I'll need to read this over a few times and really take in what you guys are saying.
The Cycle of Fifths I learned like this.
I have a chard with a wheel and the along the wheel there are #'s.
Based on the note that you're on, different notes will be assigned to different numbers and the rules of which numbers can move to which numbers will tell you which chords can be played in the progression.
For example, as per my chart:
Lets say I start with D (#2) as per the chart #2 can move to 4,5 or 7 so Fmajor,Gmajor, or B Diminish.
I could be totally wrong, please tell me if I am,

Thought I was starting to grasp the concept but guess not
 
So check this chord wheel without the mask first

chord-wheel-with-colour.png


Note that there are three concentric circles showing Major chords Minor chords and diminished chords (I haven't gotten around to doing ones for the minor keys yet).

now consider this one with a diatonic key mask applied

chord-wheel-with-Mask.png


Here we can see the relationship within a particular key as to how the cycle of 5ths might operate:

IV-vii[sup]b5[/sup]-iii-vi-ii-V-I.

As for how it works around the circle, simply pick a chord and move around the circle clockwise in the same circle, i.e. major to major or minor to minor or dim to dim. Hop from circle to circle to hear new and interesting variations..... more later.....
 
yes there is a major 3rd in the C major scale; by definition the 3rd note of the scale must be a Major 3rd above C otherwise it would be some other form of scale or mode

Lol, I was talm bout chords not intervals.

---------- Post added at 05:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 AM ----------

(I haven't gotten around to doing ones for the minor keys yet).

I like yo circle you got up there, so you fina make uh whole new one for minor? What's the point if each major's relative minor is already shown? & where can I find these circles you got?

Hop from circle to circle to hear new and interesting variations..... more later.....

Are you rly makin uh new circle? Lol
 
Lol, I was talm bout chords not intervals.

Agreed, but the way you wrote it, it didn't make sense, at least to my eyes and mind......

I like yo circle you got up there, so you fina make uh whole new one for minor?

Thank you. Yes....

What's the point if each major's relative minor is already shown?

Making one for minor keys is important if you want to use Harmonic minor or melodic minor progressions

& where can I find these circles you got?

Right there on the screen above - I created these as SVG files and will eventually (sometime in the next month) get them on-line at bandcoach.org

It's actually not a new circle, but more like an exploratory tool that allows you to move from chord to chord within a key center or without reference to it i.e. if you want to use secondary dominants or tritone subs and so on

---------- Post added at 11:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

here is the harmonic minor circle unmasked

HMinChordWheel.png


and masked for Aminor


HMinChordWheelMasked.png
 
Thanks for yr reply. That's one concept I haven't fully wrapped my head around yet is the Melodic & Harmonic Minors. I know there's charts that tell you which chord is which for the Major scale & the Natural Minor: Major I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii* (that last one's sposed to be diminished), but I couldn't seem to find any for the Melodic & Harmonic, also I wasn't certain of the Natural Minor one's I had seen. One of em I've printed out is from Music Theory for Dummies/Idiots I think whatever it's called & it also has "Rare Minor Chords" on it as well. I understand how the Melodic/Harmonic Minors are constructed, I just don't understand how they relate to everything else as far as chord progressions & things like that. At least I dropped the idea that you had to stay in the same scale. Lol :cheers:

---------- Post added at 08:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

Thanks again, I'm fina study these circles you posted.
 
Bandcoach, based on your chart then am I understanding that, you stay within the circle, meaning Major only Moves to Major and Minor to Minor etc...???
The chart I have looks completely different and not as busy.

Also I didn't understand how u masked the chart

Sorry about the millions of questions, just think this is something important to learn.

I want to learn how to build good and different chord progressions easily using the chart at first and then later off the top of the dome.

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

Also what's the difference is cycle of 4ths and 5ths?
 
Bandcoach, based on your chart then am I understanding that, you stay within the circle, meaning Major only Moves to Major and Minor to Minor etc...???

That's not true. At least the way you said it. BC, correct me if I'm wrong. Lol but sh!t that's why I told you each Major has a relative Minor & vice versa. That's why you see only 12 positions on the circle, just like a clock has 12 numbers. &There are 12 keys in each octave on the piano. It's easier to remember 12 scales instead of 24, that's all I'm tryna say. So if you know all 12 Major scales & comprehend how they relate to the Natural Minor scales then essentially you know all 24.

Also I didn't understand how u masked the chart

Me either. Lmao

and then later off the top of the dome.

Take a look at middle C on your keyboard. Go up a 4th & you see F. Go back to C, then go up a 5th & you see G. Look at your circle too. There really is no difference between the Cycle of 4ths/5ths cept they go opposite ways. If you go down a 5th you'll still reach F.

Also what's the difference is cycle of 4ths and 5ths?
 
Bandcoach, based on your chart then am I understanding that, you stay within the circle, meaning Major only Moves to Major and Minor to Minor etc...???
The chart I have looks completely different and not as busy.

chord-wheel-with-colour.png


and

HMinChordWheel.png


are un-masked versions of the key-based circle of 5ths/4ths.

Un-masked simply means that there is no information that explicitly limits the circle(s) to one given key.

Also I didn't understand how u masked the chart

masking simply means blocking out those chords which do not appear in a given key/scale combination

the mask for C major scale chords is

chord-wheel-with-Mask.png


the mask for A Harmonic minor chords is this

HMinChordWheelMasked.png


Sorry about the millions of questions, just think this is something important to learn.

I want to learn how to build good and different chord progressions easily using the chart at first and then later off the top of the dome.

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

Also what's the difference is cycle of 4ths and 5ths?

One of bass movement - if you move up you are moving by 4ths, if you move down you are moving by 5ths.


The unmasked versions of the circles allow you to explore other possible ways of moving from chord to chord. For example if you wanted to only use the major chords that are built above the sclae tones of C major you would use C-G-D-A-E-B-F fro mthe major circle. Similarly if you only wanted to use the minor chords that can be above the scale tones of C major you would use Cm-Gm-Dm-Am-Em-Bm-Fm. If you wanted to mix and match you can do that too.

Same goes for the harmonic minor circle - let your imagination work through the possibilities of using a harmonic minor as a a baiss for chord progressions where you only use the scale tone based major chords A-B-C-D-E-F-G or scale tone based minor chords Am-Bm-Cm-Dm-Gm-Fm-G#m
 
I understand that masking the chart, is basically showing the chords that can be played within a scale or something of that nature, but how did you determine what to mask and how did you assign the roman numerals to each chord.
One the chart is masked and you see the available chords, how do you determine where to move to and where to
move next.

The chart I was taught on is different, the chords and everything are the exact same and there are roman numerals underneath, by spinning the wheal the notes will move around the chart however the roman numerals will always remain the same. A second part to the chart would display which roman numeral can move to which roman numeral and that's how I would determine which chords I could play next.

Seeing the one you put up, is a bit more technical but I know theory wise it's on point. So I'm trying best to understand this concept versus the one I was taught.
 
The scale degree.

Essentially this^^^^^

Am is the chord built above scale degree 1 (A-C-E {1-[sup]b[/sup]3-5}).

B[sup]o[/sup] is the chord built above scale degree 2 (B-D-F {2-4-[sup]b[/sup]6}).

C[sup](#5)[/sup] is the chord built above scale degree [sup]b[/sup]3 (C-E-G[sup]#[/sup] {[sup]b[/sup]3-5-[sup]#[/sup]7}).

Dm is the chord built above scale degree 4 (D-F-A {4-[sup]b[/sup]6-1}).

E is the chord built above scale degree 5 (E-G[sup]#[/sup]-B {5-7-2}).

F is the chord built above scale degree [sup]b[/sup]6 (F-A-C {[sup]b[/sup]6-1-[sup]b[/sup]3}).

G[sup]#o[/sup] is the chord built above scale degree 7 (G#-B-D {7-2-4}).

Applying the mask is simply one of eliminating the impossible or, conversely, keeping the possible.....
 
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