Mics upside down

dyce obviusly you know best you know more than anyone else

I didn't say that.

I never said "I know best"...

...nor did I say "I know more than anyone else"...

I said "I speak of what I know".

(and, in this case, I do know more than you, in particular)



and in fact your so wrong on things its doing my head in its like talking to a politician..

soundwaves do travel in straight lines the reason you can hear sound from different directions is the fact it bounces of objects before it hits you if it doesnt you can pinpoint the direction a sound comes from much easier if someones behind you you hear the sound from behind not from the front ..so you think about it !!

sound waves are directional, but they do not travel straight like a laser beam or a bullet...

they come from their source and are dispersed and diffracted and reflected...

(they disperse in a manner not unlike the spray bottle example)

The molecules vibrate... and those molecules, in turn, cause other molecules to vibrate... and they continue to collide and cause the adjacent molecules to vibrate, progressively weaker, until all energy is lost... and you hear "sound"...

Sound reflects off of surfaces which allows you to pinpoint directionality (along with the time variance from left to right ear), but the sound does not come out of your mouth in a pin straight line direct to the microphone.


if sound didnt travel in straight lines technology such as 5.1 wouldnt work as youd just have a mash off sound sound travels to you from the direction its coming from so if a right speaker is too the right of your head you know its coming from the right if sound doesnt travel in straight lines as you state then 5.1 encoding wouldnt work would it?think about that one einstein.

Sound from the 5.1 speakers is "directional" but does not shoot out of the speakers like a laser beam.

The sound "fans out", so to speak.




you obvioulsly think you know more than anyone else because you cant understand or even comprehend that i may be right and you may be wrong.same wit you you dont know what tracks ive worked on how long ive been doing this or anything else ive done i too could brag and brag about things but a forum like this doesnt need that crap

Actually, I do not even know what you are trying to argue with me about...

I do not know why you are bringing any of this up since none of it relates to my point: That an upside-down mic sounds no different from a rightside-up mic if you are pointing at the capsule at the same direction.


...and i do not care what tracks you have worked on or anything else you have done.

I did not bring that stuff up.

You did.

You are the one who said it was "arrogant" of me to question something your mentor said.

I only went on to say that:

1. there is nothing wrong with questioning people, and, in fact, it is a smart thing to do.

2. you are talking about your mentor having all this experience and me just being "some guy on a forum" when you don't even know what my credentials are... and that it shouldn't matter anyway.



if you want proof read this ..
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Sound/interference.htm

the part too read is the (Sound Traveling Between Materials)section.
now if after reading that you still dont believe sound travels in straight lines then join steven hawkins for dinner.

OK... I looked at your link...

Although the section you linked to does not really relate to what you were trying to say, I looked a the rest of the site you linked and found something that does directly answer this question:

What Is Sound and How Does It Travel?

"Sound is a pressure disturbance that moves through a medium in the form of mechanical waves. When a force is exerted on an atom, it moves from its rest or equilibrium position and exerts a force on the adjacent particles. These adjacent particles are moved from their rest position and this continues throughout the medium. This transfer of energy from one particle to the next is how sound travels through a medium. The words "mechanical wave" are used to describe the distribution of energy through a medium by the transfer of energy from one particle to the next.

Waves of sound energy move outward in all directions from the source. Your vocal chords and the strings on a guitar are both sources which vibrate to produce sound waves. Without energy, there would be no sound."



Notice it essentially says exactly what I said earlier.

I could show you other links that say the same exact thing, but what could be better than the same source that you thought so highly enough of as to link to it yourself?




anothe thing before i go get my dinner if sound doesnt travel in straight lines then bats wouldnt be able to fly or hunt..sonar wouldnt work...etc ..sound has to travel in a straight line for it too be bounced back too the bat or sonar if it didnt a bat couldnt hunt or detect were its prey is..


If you read up a little on bats and sonor/echolocation (I started writing a bunch here, but it is just easier for you to look it up), you will see that this is not something that "disproves" sound waves moving outward from a source.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

another thing if your a enginner or producer or whatever and youve been to uni/college one of the first lessons i got taught was how the ear percieves sound and altough sound travels in lines the ear doesnt listen in straight lines if it did youd never hear what was at the front or at the back off you.

the ear acts as a funnell gathering all soundwaves, it then channels that information down the ear canal were your mind then process the information into a kind of 3d spacial diagram of the outside world .
its a trait all sucessful predators have ,to survive our bodys had to adapt to think spacially if we didnt there wouldnt be humans here now we needed spacial awarness to hunt sucessfully we needed to hear were our prey was not just see were it was and also we needed to hear were other preadators were thats why our ears dont hear in straight lines..

and also the workd soundwave means the actual sound is a wave but how it gets projected is via straight lines..lesson over :)

So you think that somehow the "sound travels in straight lines" but the "ear doesn't listen in straight lines" so the ear is magically sucking is sound waves from all over?

The sound waves have to hit the ear for them to be heard.

The ear is like a funnel... animals use their big ears to focus the sound inorder to hear more effectively...

But, like a "funnel", the sound has to actually hit the funnel...

Just like if you were using a funnel to fill a jug with water... you need to pour the water onto the funnel in order for the funnel to direct the water into the jug.

If you pour the water 5 inches to the left of where the fullel is, no water will get into the jug. The funnel does not suck water into itself from all around... it takes what is poured into its wide opening and focuses it into the smaller outlet.
 
Wow. I have actually learned a bit while reading this thread :D
 
There is another reason to use it upside down. When positioned the regular way, your microphone collects more of the hard and loud reflections coming from the ceiling (unless your recording room is completely dead), whereas in the upside down position it collects more reflections from the floor, which are usually softer if you have a carpet floor. This is particularly true for spherical and cardioid microphones. It's a matter of taste of course.
 
Good point. I never thought about that. Especially in home studios where ceilings are lower I could see that influencing the sound a lot more.
 
Please understand this, Recording techniques are ALL based off of preference and objectives (what are you trying to accomplish). What you do in one studio with a mic will change in another studio, with the same mic. If you have heat issues in one particular studio does not mean that this same mic will react the same way in a climate controlled studio. If you as an engineer feel you receive a better take when the mic is suspended from the ceiling then do it. Logically thinking of vocal theory, forcing a vocalist to look up a little may cause note to be projected more clear but its ALL "Personal Preference" and you cant argue that. ("Your studio is not the end all be all nor is any other "Major Studio") Its what works for the engineer in that space.

facebook.com/traklabmusic
youtube.com/traklabmusic
 
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As long as you put the mic in front of the person and listen to the recorded signal ... you can adjust the mic to sound the way you want it. It doesent matter if it is upside down or up.
 
It makes absolutely no sonic difference of the mic is upside down.

There is a "back" and "front" of mics that is important, but not an "upside down"...


Up, down or sideways... It makes no difference.

The sound is hitting the diaphragm in the exact same way.

And if you stand on your head to sing, you don't have to turn the mic upside down to match... Do you see how it makes no sense?


Think about a mic that you sing directly onto... Like an sm57/sm58/re20/sm7/etc... Do you think those much have a different "upside down" too?
 
upside down

There is a difference: A large-diaphragm condensor microphone is less sensitive to sound coming from the side where you plug in the cable, than it is for sound coming from the opposite side, simply because the house that contains the electronics shields blocks the sound coming from that direction. So if you point the cable side to the ceiling, the mike will collect less indirect sound from the ceiling, but more from the floor. As the floor is usualy more dead than the ceiling, it makes a difference.
 
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Just so you would have a definitive answer that you would not have to argue with...

I asked Martin Schneider (Neumann mic development) whether the orientation of the mic (upside down or rightside up) makes any sonic difference in a recording.

His answer in relevant part was:

"The capsule is axially and rotationally symmetrical, so it doesn't care."


and regarding any difference at all on the vertical axis and what the difference would be between singing into the mic from the "body side" or the "grille" side and whether one should take any acoustical factors into account when deciding whether to position a mic "upside down" or right side up":

"there is no such documentation available, not from any manufacturer I know of"

and:

"for the directivity of mics, have a look at the polar patterns."


so stop worrying so much about whether your mic is pointing this way or that way. It is not an issue.


here is a nice 3D image of polar patterns for those who have trouble understanding the typical "2D" graphs the mic manufacturers typically provide:


cardioid:
microphone_cardioid_polar_pattern.jpg



supercardoid:
microphone_supercardioid_polar_pattern.jpg




omnidirectional:
microphone_omnidirectional_polar_pattern.jpg
 
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And here is what Uwe Sattler (also from Neumann) had to add on the topic and to the comments from Martin above:

"If there indeed were any audible differences in the frequency range between upright, sideways or upside down microphone orientation beyond Martin's replies, someone ambitious long ago would have thoroughly investigated, created esoteric measurements and attached his name to endless papers with complex formulas"
 
Here is an even more definitive answer that you probably will argue. For a large-diaphragm condenser microphone the capsule is axially and rotationally symmetrical, but the housing is not! Please take a look at the first picture. It’s the upper part of a (stripped) microphone (it is a Neumann, by the way), showing only the capsule and a part of the electronics. I find it hard to believe that sound from below (where the electronics are) will reach the capsule with the same strength as sound coming from above or from the left or right side. The housing of the electronics will block the way of the sound and thus diminish its strength.neumann small.JPG

To be even surer I measured the sensitivity of my own large-diaphragm condenser microphone, just by holding it in different orientations in front of a speaker emitting a constant 1000 Hz tone and noting the reading on the dB meter of the recording program. Using the sensitivity in the front (normal) direction as reference (0 dB) I measured sensitivities as shown in the second picture. Note that sound coming from the bottom (cable) side gives a 5 db weaker signal than sound coming from above. In a dead room the differences will probably be bigger.sensitivity.jpg
 

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Now if you use your microphone the regular way, indirect sound coming from the ceiling will give a stronger signal than indirect sound coming from the floor (see third picture). If you use it upside down (fourth picture) you will record less of the sound coming from above and more coming from the floor. This is not only so for the early reflections shown in the pictures, but for all the indirect sound.
So if you have a carpet floor and a hard ceiling, using your microphone upside down will give a dryer signal than when you use it the regular way. Which one you prefer is a matter of taste, maybe you have those magic acoustics in your studio that you definitely want to record. Usually, it easier to add reverb to a dry signal than to remove it from a wet signal.
upside down.jpg
 
I am not arguing anything.

i posed the question to neumann who is in the business of determining, analyzing and understanding all this information and posed every scenario that was described here... I am satisfied with their answer and that any difference on the vertical axis is insignificant enough that no microphone company even deals with the issue... And that there are more important things to concern yourself with regarding mic positioning.

I do notice some factors missing from your experiment regarding strength of reflections, and on top of that I don't know how accurate and precise your tests were to begin with.

as far as I am concerned, having the mic designers at Neumann as my source of information trumps any info I get from laymen.

but as even they said... Put the mic whatever position you want... If you think you perceive a difference, then go with it.
 
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Sound that hits the capsule, hits the capsule....weather direct, reflective,
or from alien beams, problem solved.
People hang mics, upside down, for multiple reasons. Also, for alot of the reasons here.
Some singers and rappers(krazie bone) prefer mic higher, to open throat.
As dvyce has shown, can be configured any way, upside down, inside out, on it side,
while being held by a mogwai drinking water.
Concerning yourself with body resonance, grill resonance,and the such, is purely
semantics, splitting hairs.
Upside down because of the tube theory, for more room for artist, other various
reasons, are all plausible.
Nothing set in stone.
I feel like captain obvious.
 
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