When I answer a question on FP...

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

All bold and caps denote points of emphasis and are not to be considered as anger or yelling.

Well, there was not much of an "exchange"... there was one question ("Are we trying to facilitate a learning environment here?") and one answer... that was the extent of the "exchange"...

It doesn't have to be "much" of an exchange. The fact is I asked a question, you most likely answered without knowing the extent or purpose of the question and I asked you a question in response to it. So regardless if there were 500 back and forth posts between us or 5, no matter what, it is still and exchange of information/responses between two parties.

I am actually quite surprised to hear that your question was not sarcastic!Seriously.

Why? In the closing part of your post you say, "I know nothing about you other than what you have written in this thread." and "I know nothing about whether or not you make music or produce or mix or are on the business side of things or are young or old or a newbie or experienced or anything else." So given that you know nothing about me, what part of my post would lead you to form the assessment that the question was sarcastic? The question was logical and didn't require more clarity on my part as it was a "closed question." However, if further clarity was required a simple "Can you expound on that?" or an "I'm not sure what you're getting at can you elaborate?" would have been sufficient.

Are you actually saying that you are unclear as to whether "Future Producers", whose slogan for the past 10 years has been "Musicians Learning From Musicians" (although I no longer see it on the front page since the very recent site redesign)...

How would I know about the slogan when I just signed up for the site like a month or two ago and no such slogan was present when I signed up? What you're doing is jumping the gun and assuming I know the history of the site and the slogan/mission statement, I don't. Have I heard about the site before? Yes. However, it was only recently that I decided to actually join.

...a forum with areas set up to ask questions and have discussions relating to every area of music production, recording, business, composition, etc...You are actually unclear as to whether the intention of "Future Producers" is to provide an environment where people can come to ask questions and, in return, expect to learn the correct answer to their questions?

See above. Many people have different views on what this site is and what this site is supposed to be. Some use it to get tips, help, info. Some use it as a outlet to provide knowledge and share. Some simply use it as a means to network. Still others use it as a means to show off their music while others simply come here to kick it.

Finally, you have the people who use it as a means to stand on their soapbox and even worse, people who troll. I don't know what the admins and owners have in store for this site, what they want, etc, which is why the question was asked. As a former assistant to a college professor (all semesters except for two), a tutor to other college students while I was still enrolled in college and a person with plans to teach high school after my current business ventures and obligations have been met, I could have shed light on why the problem is present (starting with the owners and admins then working down to membership), how to keep the synergy flowing and how to create and implement a definitive go forward plan that would have made everyone’s job easier. Do I have all the answers? No, and because online communities lack certain aspects of communication that real world learning have, it makes it that much more difficult, but there are still things that can be done to foster a learning environment and understanding which “channels” are best suited for conveying appropriate information to the users.

I cannot imagine what type of environment FP would be trying to facilitate other than a "learning environment".

You can't imagine it. You don't speak for all of the members here. In fact, other people don't imagine it that way which is why you made the topic correct? I can give you another one; instead of trying to facilitate a "learning environment" the owners could simply be looking to monetize the site. This could simply be a "lets increase the heads and then take those numbers to our many advertisers and charge them even more money." I'm NOT saying that is the case, what I am saying is that it could be one of many possibilities.

While there are a lot of things in life that are not obvious...

...I would have thought the question of whether FP was trying to facilitate a learning environment to be an obvious one.(they are)

These things are not obvious when you're comparing a person who knows the history of the site and is a mod with thousands of posts to a person who heard about the site over the years, never gave it much thought to join until only recently and has less than 100 posts. You can't apply your understanding and experience of the site to a person who is new and asking a logical question.

It would seem obvious that this place "ought to be" a learning environment (which is what I believe your question was: "are we trying to facilitate a learning environment here?")

Dvyce, it is obvious to you. It is not obvious to new people. If the slogan that you mentioned is no longer here that muddies the water just a bit. Moreover, it is not obvious to the many people who rip this website and bash it, and believe me there are tons of people and other websites who do this. So what it "ought to be" and what it actually is goes back to the vision of the owners and what the user base utilize the site for.

I would also be very surprised if there is anybody who comes here does not think FP is supposed to be a place to learn about music production.

You would be surprised. Based on my experience with working with people nothing surprises me. What people think and what they actually do are often times different. Again, why did you make this thread? To address a problem that you see correct? Would the problem be mitigated if certain steps were taken by admins, mods and membership? Would the problem be there if everyone had the same vision of what this site should be?

...and regardless of whether someone thinks they have actually learned something or not... I am quite sure they would understand that FutureProducers.com is "trying to facilitate a learning environment".

Why would they understand that? If everyone understood it, and took the steps to making it a reality, you wouldn't have made this thread.

...and I am sure that even some troll who goes around starting trouble and/or giving bad answers knows that the intention of FP is to create a learning environment (regardless of whether or not he respects that.)

He may, but what about the people who don't know the sites history and intention? What about the people who simply see this as a place to spam their beats? What about people who simply come here for free beats? What about people who only check the ad sections for a good deal on gear? These people may not know the intention of the site because the intention of the site is implied and their intentions or needs are different.

As I already said, I am shocked to hear that your question was a serious one.

You shouldn't be. As a person in authority and a person who has a working knowledge of this site and how it operates, you shouldn't discount anyone’s question unless you know that person has a history of being problematic. And even then you should take each question on a case by case basis and consider the merits of the question. Are you familiar with older southern people? There are a lot of sayings that old southern folk use and one that comes to mind is: "Take a hint before you take a slander."

If I knew you actually thought the intention of FP was possibly to hinder peoples learning... (though that would be a rather elaborate joke of FP's part)...my answer to you would have been different. My answer would have simply been: "Yes."...but I might have added "seriously? you really aren't sure as to whether the creators of FP wanted people to learn about music production?"

The question was a closed question so a yes or no would have sufficed. However, what the creators of FP want/envision and what other people want/envision or what they get out of this site may be two different things. So you build a site where the majority of people are "beat makers" or "producers" or whatever you want to call them, that in and of itself does not scream "LEARNING ENVIRONMENT". Many people outside of the rap/hip hop world look at this site as a joke or only catering to bedroom "producers" and mindless rap music while others offer a very professional critique. Why don't you take a look at this link and read what this guy and his website have to say about FP.

http://www.pmpworldwide.com/articles.cfm?contentID=D6E88F6A-E1E4-8B11-627F6A0DD671C40B

While sarcasm can be used as an attack...

[Snipped for length]

That would have been attacking.

(and those were just examples... they were not actually some backhanded swipe at you)

The following are suitable definitions that do not agree with your interpretation/usage.

http://www.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

Again, I was not clear of your purpose which is why I said I wanted you to answer before I gave you an appropriate response. Some people would have jumped the gun, but I said in many instances it can be an attack and that I've done nothing to warrant an attack. If it were an attack would I have cried a river? Nope. It simply would have been the gloves coming off and an exchange of words or would have been me leaving you with two sentences. But since you said you didn't mean it as an attack, and since I was neutral and didn't take it any way, I'll simply take your word for it.

OK, so have I cleared it up for you?

Yes.

Once again, there is no sarcasm in this post.

I am not attacking you.

I know nothing about you other than what you have written in this thread.

I know nothing about your other posts here.

I know nothing about whether or not you make music or produce or mix or are on the business side of things or are young or old or a newbie or experienced or anything else.

I am only answering your questions as matter-of-factly as possible.

This has been addressed and all those things can be answered by simply looking at my user profile and clicking on the appropriate links.

 

[dvyce]

It doesn't have to be "much" of an exchange. The fact is I asked a question, you most likely answered without knowing the extent or purpose of the question and I asked you a question in response to it. So regardless if there were 500 back and forth posts between us or 5, no matter what, it is still and exchange of information/responses between two parties.

The reason I believe the fact that there was only 1 post between us is that you were telling people to go back and read your first post as if there were some long convoluted trail of posts between us...

As is the original intent of your question or my answer would have gotten lost or confused along the way.

I just thought it was funny because there was not really any room for confusion that I could see...

One question.

One answer.

I think everyone here was on the same page.

I am actually quite surprised to hear that your question was not sarcastic!Seriously.

Why? In the closing part of your post you say, "I know nothing about you other than what you have written in this thread." and "I know nothing about whether or not you make music or produce or mix or are on the business side of things or are young or old or a newbie or experienced or anything else." So given that you know nothing about me, what part of my post would lead you to form the assessment that the question was sarcastic? The question was logical and didn't require more clarity on my part as it was a "closed question." However, if further clarity was required a simple "Can you expound on that?" or an "I'm not sure what you're getting at can you elaborate?" would have been sufficient.

Why? Because I cannot imagine any other reason to create a forum in which to ask music production questions if the intent were not to learn the answers to those questions.


...and the reason I made it clear that I know nothing about you or what you do is because it seems clear to me that you are hypersensitive, and I did not want you to think I was making that example of sarcasm about a persons' musical ability as a way to say you are untalented (because I have no idea what your music sounds like or if you even make music)... and I didn't want you to think I was making the "pie eating contest" example to say you are fat or anything (since I have no idea what you look like)...

...and I didn't want you to think I was directing anything else as a personal attack towards you...

...particularly since you already taken a very general post as a personal attack.

I am only trying to keep you from feeling like people are attacking you.





Anyway, as i already said, I didn't think the question was logical.

No offense intended.

As I already said, I can't imagine any other purpose for a forum like this (or pretty much any other forum) than for people to learn the answers to their questions.

Your question did not seem any more logical to me than the "do I eat the plate, too?" question in my "pie eating contest" scenario.


Because I can't think of any other intent of This forum or any other forum like it.


Just out of curiosity, what do you think would be another purpose for a forum that is designed for people to ask questions? (if not to have your questions answered?)

Are you actually saying that you are unclear as to whether "Future Producers", whose slogan for the past 10 years has been "Musicians Learning From Musicians" (although I no longer see it on the front page since the very recent site redesign)...

How would I know about the slogan when I just signed up for the site like a month or two ago and no such slogan was present when I signed up? What you're doing is jumping the gun and assuming I know the history of the site and the slogan/mission statement, I don't. Have I heard about the site before? Yes. However, it was only recently that I decided to actually join.

The slogan is irrelevant.

You can remove that sentence and the question is no less valid.

Once again, you do not need to know the history of the site to understand that you would ask a question here because you want to know the answer.

Are you saying that without knowing the slogan, you would have thought it was possibly something like: "Future Producers - keeping newbies down for a decade"?


You signed up here and have made 82 posts but still are unsure about why people come here and ask things like "what is the difference between an insert and a send?" or "how do I group tracks together?" or "what is doubling?", etc, etc?

You shouldn't need a slogan to tell you that.

...a forum with areas set up to ask questions and have discussions relating to every area of music production, recording, business, composition, etc...You are actually unclear as to whether the intention of "Future Producers" is to provide an environment where people can come to ask questions and, in return, expect to learn the correct answer to their questions?

See above. Many people have different views on what this site is and what this site is supposed to be. Some use it to get tips, help, info. Some use it as a outlet to provide knowledge and share. Some simply use it as a means to network. Still others use it as a means to show off their music while others simply come here to kick it.

Based on what you wrote there, is seems like you should understand that FP is trying to facilitate a learning environment.

It is very much like going to school: You have your classes with students and teachers. The school is there to facilitate learning. But you also have social interaction there. You network. You have extracurricular activities. You hang out.

But the purpose of the school is for learning.

Even though other things happen in school, it is pretty obvious why the school is there.


Regardless of the quality of the school...

Regardless of whether students want to learn or not...

...the school is trying to create a learning environment.

Finally, you have the people who use it as a means to stand on their soapbox and even worse, people who troll. I don't know what the admins and owners have in store for this site, what they want, etc, which is why the question was asked. As a former assistant to a college professor (all semesters except for two), a tutor to other college students while I was still enrolled in college and a person with plans to teach high school after my current business ventures and obligations have been met, I could have shed light on why the problem is present (starting with the owners and admins then working down to membership), how to keep the synergy flowing and how to create and implement a definitive go forward plan that would have made everyone’s job easier. Do I have all the answers? No, and because online communities lack certain aspects of communication that real world learning have, it makes it that much more difficult, but there are still things that can be done to foster a learning environment and understanding which “channels” are best suited for conveying appropriate information to the users.

If you, or anybody else, has an idea for a way to "improve" something you perceive to be lacking... by all means, tell a mod in a PM... we all listen to that stuff... if the idea is something that makes sense, it may find its way into the workings of FP.

I cannot imagine what type of environment FP would be trying to facilitate other than a "learning environment".

You can't imagine it. You don't speak for all of the members here. In fact, other people don't imagine it that way which is why you made the topic correct? I can give you another one; instead of trying to facilitate a "learning environment" the owners could simply be looking to monetize the site. This could simply be a "lets increase the heads and then take those numbers to our many advertisers and charge them even more money." I'm NOT saying that is the case, what I am saying is that it could be one of many possibilities.[/FONT]

FP is the "facilitating" party...

The members are the "participating" parties...


Just glance over the forum and you will see that FP is trying to facilitate a learning environment.

The members understand it is a learning environment.

That is the essence of why they come here.

I did not start the topic because I don't think members think this is a place to learn.

I started the topic to explore the fact that people need to be thoughtful about their answers to peoples questions.

People come here for answers. They want correct answers. They want to learn their craft.

And I wanted to make the point that, just as they want correct answers to their questions, they need to be just as thoughtful with the answers they give others... because everybody is here for the same reason: to LEARN.

While there are a lot of things in life that are not obvious...

...I would have thought the question of whether FP was trying to facilitate a learning environment to be an obvious one.(they are)

These things are not obvious when you're comparing a person who knows the history of the site and is a mod with thousands of posts to a person who heard about the site over the years, never gave it much thought to join until only recently and has less than 100 posts. You can't apply your understanding and experience of the site to a person who is new and asking a logical question.

It seems pretty obvious to me (and others) just from glancing over the site that it is here to help people with their music.

I believe a person could look at any forum and be able to determine what it's purpose is pretty quickly.

Dvyce, it is obvious to you. It is not obvious to new people. If the slogan that you mentioned is no longer here that muddies the water just a bit. Moreover, it is not obvious to the many people who rip this website and bash it, and believe me there are tons of people and other websites who do this. So what it "ought to be" and what it actually is goes back to the vision of the owners and what the user base utilize the site for.



You would be surprised. Based on my experience with working with people nothing surprises me. What people think and what they actually do are often times different. Again, why did you make this thread? To address a problem that you see correct? Would the problem be mitigated if certain steps were taken by admins, mods and membership? Would the problem be there if everyone had the same vision of what this site should be?



Why would they understand that? If everyone understood it, and took the steps to making it a reality, you wouldn't have made this thread.



He may, but what about the people who don't know the sites history and intention? What about the people who simply see this as a place to spam their beats? What about people who simply come here for free beats? What about people who only check the ad sections for a good deal on gear? These people may not know the intention of the site because the intention of the site is implied and their intentions or needs are different.



You shouldn't be. As a person in authority and a person who has a working knowledge of this site and how it operates, you shouldn't discount anyone’s question unless you know that person has a history of being problematic. And even then you should take each question on a case by case basis and consider the merits of the question. Are you familiar with older southern people? There are a lot of sayings that old southern folk use and one that comes to mind is: "Take a hint before you take a slander."



The question was a closed question so a yes or no would have sufficed. However, what the creators of FP want/envision and what other people want/envision or what they get out of this site may be two different things. So you build a site where the majority of people are "beat makers" or "producers" or whatever you want to call them, that in and of itself does not scream "LEARNING ENVIRONMENT". Many people outside of the rap/hip hop world look at this site as a joke or only catering to bedroom "producers" and mindless rap music while others offer a very professional critique. Why don't you take a look at this link and read what this guy and his website have to say about FP.

http://www.pmpworldwide.com/articles.cfm?contentID=D6E88F6A-E1E4-8B11-627F6A0DD671C40B



The following are suitable definitions that do not agree with your interpretation/usage.

http://www.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

Again, I was not clear of your purpose which is why I said I wanted you to answer before I gave you an appropriate response. Some people would have jumped the gun, but I said in many instances it can be an attack and that I've done nothing to warrant an attack. If it were an attack would I have cried a river? Nope. It simply would have been the gloves coming off and an exchange of words or would have been me leaving you with two sentences. But since you said you didn't mean it as an attack, and since I was neutral and didn't take it any way, I'll simply take your word for it.


Yes.



This has been addressed and all those things can be answered by simply looking at my user profile and clicking on the appropriate links.

I will lump all the remaining parts of my responses together as the remaining sections are largely saying the same thing and/or are beyond the scope of this thread or things about the workings of FP that would be more appropriate for a PM...


anyway...


Don't get the "FP site" and the "FP members" confused... the "intent of the site" comes from FP itself. FP's intent is to help people improve their craft (this includes learning, networking, getting feedback... this is all part of the learning environment). You can say it as many times as you'd like, but I have never seen anybody have a problem understanding the purpose of the site.

People who come here know that it is a place where they can ask questions about music production/business.

When you have such a huge amount of members, you are bound to have some riff raff.

When you are dealing with all levels of music production, you get people of all ages and experience levels which means you may have the 11 year old kid who just got a computer and wants to make beats... you also get the older more experienced music makers... but, as it typically is with any forum, the more experienced people will really be there to give advice rather than ask questions. The ones you notice are the newbies who are trying to find their way (because they ask more questions and are louder). And I would say that the beginners are the ones who really need a place like this... not the more experienced people.

And I did not make this thread because people do not understand this is a place to learn. I have never seen a problem with people understanding that. People ask their questions and want their answers... people also enthusiastically answer questions... I just wanted to point out that people need to be sure they are giving accurate information because that is how an environment like this works... you expect correct answers to your questions and so does the next guy... so when it is your turn to answer a question, make sure you are giving the kind of answer you would like to get in return.


when you have people of all age groups and experience levels, you will be dealing with different levels of maturity as well as different levels of seriousness in the craft... and if you are trying to create an environment where all levels are welcome, you need to deal with the whole spectrum. Kindergarteners and grad students in the same classroom can get tricky... but they are all here voluntarily... they all have the common goal of wanting to be able to make better music. (or the people like myself who are only here to help people learn)


The definitions of sarcasm you linked do not go against anything I said... It seems like you are taking part of a definition and using it to fit your purpose... (I started disecting the definition, but it was taking too long and did not seem so important... If you'd like, I can show you how it applies to my comment, but I do not really think it is necessary)


and I still do not see how my comment could be perceived as an attack.

...and I don't know why you think you'd have to be "problematic" or why you think I was discounting your question... I just thought you were making a joke... or where you think you have been "slandered" (though, since we are dealing with written words, "libel" would be the proper term... not to be nitpicky, but it is just my lawyering days poking through )

If i had put a smiley ( ) instead of writing "sarcasm" would you have been less offended?

YOU: Wait, is this supposed to be a learning environment?
ME: What? FP? a learning environment?!? naaaaahhh!

...that is how I saw our interaction... which is why I am so shocked you have gone so deep into this.

 

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

The reason I believe the fact that there was only 1 post between us is that you were telling people to go back and read your first post as if there were some long convoluted trail of posts between us...

The person who I was replying to said what they thought I was suggesting. I told the person to go back and read the exchange. Simply saying to go back and read the exchange does not imply that there is a long convoluted trail of posts between us. It simply means there is an exchange of information/words that the reader should be aware of before they say what they think I'm saying. Regardless if it is one post or 1,000, the fact is I never hinted at a number so no one should misconstrue what was said and place a number where none should be.

As is the original intent of your question or my answer would have gotten lost or confused along the way.I just thought it was funny because there was not really any room for confusion that I could see...One question.One answer.I think everyone here was on the same page.

When people answer questions without understanding what they are being asked, or they answer with little information, there is room for confusion. Again, isn't that part of your premise? However, I believe that you're confusing asking the question with confusion and you shouldn't.

Why? Because I cannot imagine any other reason to create a forum in which to ask music production questions if the intent were not to learn the answers to those questions.

And someone can say they can't imagine any reason to create a forum in which to ask and answer music production questions if the owners, admins and mods don't have a track record or verifiable work history. What you're suggesting can be the reason for why this forum was created, but it could also be that what you're saying takes a back seat to making money and this site being an revenue stream for the owners.

...and the reason I made it clear that I know nothing about you or what you do is because it seems clear to me that you are hypersensitive,

And I could say by the way you handle discussion and interact with people it's clear to me why certain things on this site happen and why people leave. I don't lash out at the first sign of an attack. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and allowed you to clarify your statement before I responded in a way that could have garnered a lot of bad attention. Now if you had said, "Yeah it was an attack so what?" things would be much more different, this thread would be on the verge of being locked and I'd have pm's telling me that I'm on my way out the door. Or I'd simply leave you with two sentences and be on my way. Fortunately for you I have no problem with speaking my mind and doing it with cogency, can't say the same for others but it is what it is. Again, I never said I was attacked, what I said is that sarcasm is often used as an attack and that I've done nothing to warrant an attack. I then asked you to clarify your position.

and I did not want you to think I was making that example of sarcasm about a persons' musical ability as a way to say you are untalented (because I have no idea what your music sounds like or if you even make music)... and I didn't want you to think I was making the "pie eating contest" example to say you are fat or anything (since I have no idea what you look like)...

...and I didn't want you to think I was directing anything else as a personal attack towards you...
...particularly since you already taken a very general post as a personal attack.I am only trying to keep you from feeling like people are attacking you.

When have I taken the post as a personal attack? When have I mentioned musical ability or my experience? If you read my responses you would see that I didn't take the response in any way and asked you for clarification before I went off on the deep end. I even told you I'm taking your word that it was not an attack so what are you talking about? I don't know if you know this but part of effective communication is listening. Right now, you aren't listening/reading but are intent on proving a nonexistent point or something you believe I've said.

Here is what I said and I encourage you to pay attention to the bold and underlined:

Again, I was not clear of your purpose which is why I said I wanted you to answer before I gave you an appropriate response. Some people would have jumped the gun, but I said in many instances it can be an attack and that I've done nothing to warrant an attack. If it were an attack would I have cried a river? Nope. It simply would have been the gloves coming off and an exchange of words or would have been me leaving you with two sentences. But since you said you didn't mean it as an attack, and since I was neutral and didn't take it any way, I'll simply take your word for it.

So I'll ask again, given that you know nothing about me, what part of my post would lead you to form the assessment that the question was sarcastic?

Anyway, as i already said, I didn't think the question was logical.

What you think is a matter of your opinion. It could be an opinion shared by the majority of the site, it could be an opinion held only by yourself. However, why are you coming to such opinions without knowing a person’s intent or asking them what they mean? To be honest, a simple "yes" would have garnered you an "ok, since that is the sites objective here is what you can do..." However, when I see a mod behave in such an unprofessional manner (referring to people who may or may not be knowledgeable as morons) and answering a closed question with such irony, it sends a message to me that that this is a site where a lot of alienation may take place and, if this site is geared towards generating revenue, such actions by the mods may decrease the bottom line.

As I already said, I can't imagine any other purpose for a forum like this (or pretty much any other forum) than for people to learn the answers to their questions.

Your question did not seem any more logical to me than the "do I eat the plate, too?" question in my "pie eating contest" scenario.

There could be a multitude of reasons why it didn't seem logical to you. Critical thinking, inductive and deductive logic may not be your strong points. You could have had a bad day at work. You could have failed to ask for clarification before answering. It doesn't matter now.

Because I can't think of any other intent of This forum or any other forum like it.

Some forums simply exist to share ideas. Some are extensions of larger networks. However, they are all communities and different members of different communities have different needs. When you look at this site, there are certain things about it that are fragmented and as I've stated before there is nothing about www.futureproducers.com that screams "THIS IS A LEARNING ENVIRONMENT FIRST." I'm not saying that is not what the owners had in mind, I'm simply saying it isn't what everyone utilizes the site for and I don't think the site is known for being the bastion of learning production. Is there a ton of good info? Yes. A ton of bad info? Yes. Now how do you go about eliminating most of the bad info and making the site more useful for the members? How do you make the site more equitable for everyone?

Just out of curiosity, what do you think would be another purpose for a forum that is designed for people to ask questions? (if not to have your questions answered?)

Are you implying that the purpose of this site is to solely answer questions? As a person who is new to this site, I can tell you that I didn't come here because I heard it was a great learning environment or to have questions answered. Have I lent a hand where I could? Yes, but make no mistake about it, that was not the reason for joining the site. Designed to answer questions and people taking it upon themselves to answer are two completely different things. IMHO, if it were designed to answer questions, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Disregarding budget constraints, the layout would be really different, there would be required participation, posts would be graded, members would be graded, qualified professionals would be allotted specific groups/questions to handle, mentorships would take place, outcome based teaching, etc.

The slogan is irrelevant.

So why did you introduce it to this topic if it lacks relevancy?

You can remove that sentence and the question is no less valid. Once again, you do not need to know the history of the site to understand that you would ask a question here because you want to know the answer.

You should ask a question when you want an answer. However, it appears to me that you're having a hard time accepting the fact that not all of us utilize the site for the same reasons and that there are other places to get the answers. In addition, you seem to not comprehend the fact that answering questions takes a back seat to other things that increase the head count around here. Again, I'm not saying it does because I'm not an owner, but I'm saying it is simply foolish to think this site means the same thing to different people with different experiences.

Are you saying that without knowing the slogan, you would have thought it was possibly something like: "Future Producers - keeping newbies down for a decade"?

No, I wouldn't have thought that. I would have thought it is what I think it is, which is a site that seems to be mostly dedicated to "producers" (beat makers/composers), networking, talking about a ton of different topics, etc. However, given the rep this site has garnered on the net, I'm sure there are some who actually think this site has been keeping down newbies for a decade. "Don't go there they don't know what they are talking about", "The mods there don't know their ass from a hole in the ground." and I can give you a bit more. But don't take my word for it, just click on that link I gave you and see what your competition has said about this site. (*I am NOT affiliated with that website in ANY way. I don't have a page there, don't do business with them, etc.*)

You signed up here and have made 82 posts but still are unsure about why people come here and ask things like "what is the difference between an insert and a send?" or "how do I group tracks together?" or "what is doubling?", etc, etc?

I said there are different reasons why people come here. I have implied that I don't know the reason for why the owners made this site. So, with that being said, I'm not going to behave in a delusional manner and think that just because questions are being answered that it is the main objective/priority of the owners of this site. Which brings me to another question, who exactly are the owners of this site.

Based on what you wrote there, is seems like you should understand that FP is trying to facilitate a learning environment.

It is very much like going to school: You have your classes with students and teachers. The school is there to facilitate learning. But you also have social interaction there. You network. You have extracurricular activities. You hang out.

Who exactly are the teachers and what makes them qualified to teach? Knowing the difference between a hi and lo pass filter qualifies a person? Understanding the Fletcher Munson Curve dictates who should or shouldn't teach? Or is qualification strictly limited to knowing something 100%? If it's limited to knowing something 100%, people are in for a world of trouble. In real life, in the classroom when you're dealing with students with different abilities, etc, it takes more than knowing something 100% to effectively teach. So let's say you give the 100% correct answer, does that mean the person has applied what you think they've learned? No. For all you know the information could have went completely over their head, and unless they come back and have shown you that they understand, you have no way of knowing if the person has learned or not. So if the forum is to simply "answer" questions, knowing 100% may be the best thing, but all a user has to ask is "who are you and how do I know your answer is correct" and now you're looking at a whole didn't set of problems. But if your goal is to make this a learning environment, and market it as such, there needs to be steps that the people at the top need to take.

If you, or anybody else, has an idea for a way to "improve" something you perceive to be lacking... by all means, tell a mod in a PM... we all listen to that stuff... if the idea is something that makes sense, it may find its way into the workings of FP.

I have no problem doing this and may very well do it, but when a mod makes a thread like this what exactly is the message that is being sent to the user?

FP is the "facilitating" party...

The members are the "participating" parties...

Just glance over the forum and you will see that FP is trying to facilitate a learning environment.

I just looked at the forum. There is nothing that screams "come here if you want to learn." That isn't a knock on the site, it's simply a telling of what I see when I see the forum. So we have a forum devoted to all types of topics, but unless the user clicks on the link, or they see a topic on the side that has question marks, you shouldn't assume that they know where to post or that they can get the answer to their questions. It may be hard for you to comprehend this, but you must realize that when it comes to learning, there are many things that you would think are obvious that really aren't. You would think that some would comprehend the basics but they don't.

The members understand it is a learning environment.

That is the essence of why they come here.

That is what some members understand. That is the essence of why some people come here.

I started the topic to explore the fact that people need to be thoughtful about their answers to peoples questions.

People come here for answers. They want correct answers. They want to learn their craft.

While your intentions are noble and have merit, some can see it as alienation, ego and elitism. My question to you is how do you know people are learning their craft?

And I wanted to make the point that, just as they want correct answers to their questions, they need to be just as thoughtful with the answers they give others... because everybody is here for the same reason: to LEARN.

Everyone is not here for the same reasons. I didn't come here to learn. Do I know everything? Of course not, but I didn't come here to learn. Don't get me wrong, I can learn from people on this website and hold the belief that you should never cease learning, testing new information, honing your skills, etc, but make no mistake about it, I am not here to learn, in other words, learning was not on my agenda when I joined the site. Networking? Yes. Providing a helping hand every now and then? Yes.

It seems pretty obvious to me (and others) just from glancing over the site that it is here to help people with their music.

I believe a person could look at any forum and be able to determine what it's purpose is pretty quickly.

And your competition thinks otherwise (refer to the link.)

I will lump all the remaining parts of my responses together as the remaining sections are largely saying the same thing and/or are beyond the scope of this thread or things about the workings of FP that would be more appropriate for a PM...

No problem, and if you feel the need to send me a pm do so. If not no harm done.

Don't get the "FP site" and the "FP members" confused... the "intent of the site" comes from FP itself. FP's intent is to help people improve their craft

[snipped for length]
I just wanted to point out that people need to be sure they are giving accurate information because that is how an environment like this works... you expect correct answers to your questions and so does the next guy... so when it is your turn to answer a question, make sure you are giving the kind of answer you would like to get in return.

I’m not getting them confused. However, if there were no membership what exactly would FP be? I’m all for improving, I’m all for learning, but if you truly want to make this a learning “experience” that is unique like no other, this site is going to have to go through some changes. Some changes the members may not like, and may possibly resist if you don’t show them how the changes will benefit them, but it’s better to trim away the fat. Remember, in many instances in music “less is more.” You want 200k members with less than .5% knowing what they are talking about or do you want 50k members where 50% know what they are talking about?

when you have people of all age groups and experience levels, you will be dealing with different levels of maturity as well as different levels of seriousness in the craft... and if you are trying to create an environment where all levels are welcome, you need to deal with the whole spectrum. Kindergarteners and grad students in the same classroom can get tricky... but they are all here voluntarily... they all have the common goal of wanting to be able to make better music. (or the people like myself who are only here to help people learn)

I completely understand this, but what you don’t get is the fact that everyone’s goal is not the same. Some people go to college to get out the house and away from parents. Some go to improve their knowledge. Some go so they can get a better job someday. What motivates, or what intrinsic or extrinsic values we all hold are different. So my advice to anyone reading this, especially the admins/owners is to figure out what exactly it is you want to achieve with the site and make it a priority. You can say it is to create an environment of learning, but when people (not myself) say they aren’t learning or that the majority of advice here is BS, you have to take a step back and look at things objectively.

The definitions of sarcasm you linked do not go against anything I said... It seems like you are taking part of a definition and using it to fit your purpose... (I started disecting the definition, but it was taking too long and did not seem so important... If you'd like, I can show you how it applies to my comment, but I do not really think it is necessary) and I still do not see how my comment could be perceived as an attack.

No, I’m not taking part of anything and using it to fit my purpose. I’ve provided the definition and it’s up to you (and the other readers) to form their assessment based on what was provided. Personally, I believe irony or more specifically, verbal irony, would be more appropriate than “sarcasm.” I shouldn’t have to explain how the comment could be perceived as an attack when the definitions clearly tell you what sarcasm is, when it is used and how it is used (in most instances.)
But I didn’t take it as an attack, and you said it wasn’t an attack so it’s cool.

...and I don't know why you think you'd have to be "problematic" or why you think I was discounting your question... I just thought you were making a joke... or where you think you have been "slandered" (though, since we are dealing with written words, "libel" would be the proper term... not to be nitpicky, but it is just my lawyering days poking through

Good, it’s nice to know another person familiar with law is here. Although criminal law and things pertaining to it are more up my alley, it’s still nice to know that lawyers, paralegals, criminal justice majors, criminal justice teachers and others have a knack for making music. J

If i had put a smiley ( ) instead of writing "sarcasm" would you have been less offended?

I wasn’t offended, that is the point you aren’t getting. I waited until you clarified your position. It wasn’t an attack so it’s all good. Again, if I were offended, I’d be getting pm’s from mods telling me to cool it or I would have said two sentences and left the thread. However, I did no such thing, asked you a question and told others that I would wait for you to answer before I took it in a hostile manner.

YOU: Wait, is this supposed to be a learning environment?

ME: What? FP? a learning environment?!? naaaaahhh!

...that is how I saw our interaction... which is why I am so shocked you have gone so deep into this.

As someone who is familiar with law, you should know that questions and answers, more specifically how a question is phrased or how a person answers, can weigh heavily on the trier of fact. Anyone who knows me personally can tell you I can argue with a STOP SIGN and tell it it should paint itself green and say GO. It's just the nature of who I am, the environment I grew up in and educational and professional background. So it isn’t a matter of me going so deep but a matter of common courtesy and allowing you to elaborate before I found myself being offended and writing you off.

 

[dvyce]

Well, HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE, it seems that we both believe neither of us is quite understanding what the other is saying (which is fine), so I will not go through your post line by line... (plus, it is a bit difficult to quote bits of your post since you use so many color/size/font codes which make it a bit difficult with all these"
" everywhere... that is the one at the top of your last post, but similar ones are scattered throughout your post... that is fine, but it is just difficult to cut around all that and to make sure the correct closing code is also in place.)

But I would like to make a few comments...

You keep saying that you never said you were attacked, but when you say things like:

In many instances sarcasm is used as an attack, and as a new member that has done nothing except contribute to the forum in the form of helping others, I've done nothing to warrant such an attack. So I'm asking dvyce, not bandcoach and not yourself, what his intentions where when he made the reply. In other words, I don't want to take things the wrong way and want to proceed with giving him an appropriate response.

It looks to me as if you feel you have been "attacked"...

If you didn't feel you were being "attacked", I don't see why you would be saying "in many instances, sarcasm can be used as an attack and i have done nothing to warrant such an attack so i am asking you what are your intentions?"

I have told you several times I was not "attacking" you. I did not intend for you to think you were being "attacked". The comment you keep referring to was so general in nature and had nothing personally directed at you, that I am surprised you would take it personally...

You continue to point out how "sarcasm can be used as an attack"... OK, but that does not mean "sarcasm is always attacking"... you say you have done nothing to warrant an attack... my comment was not personal... so why are you even having an issue?

Your definition also said that sarcasm can be used for humor and jest with regard to a situation or thing and is a form of humor... but you keep latching onto the "attack" part of the definition.

You don't need a dictionary definition to determine whether my post was "attacking" you... we are not debating the definition of sarcasm...

It is as if you called the police to a major league baseball game because the players were holding bats... and since baseball bats could be used to attack someone and they were swinging their bats at the balls, you felt attacked even though you did nothing to warrant an attack from a player.

The truth is, I feel that (particularly in your last post) you are the one who is "attacking"...

If you do not see where you seem attacking, I will be glad to point it out to you. But, I will continue to speak to you without attacking you.





anyway... on to some other randomly scattered points...

You say I am "confusing asking the question with confusion and you shouldn't"... are you trying to say that you understood the purpose of FP is to help people learn but you were asking the question rhetorically?


I never said you mentioned musical ability. The only thing I ever said about your musical ability was to assure you that I was not attempting to personally "attack" you with an example I made regarding "sarcasm" in general. I mentioned it is the sense of "I am not directing this to you as an insult on your musical ability. I do not even know anything about what you do musically"...


This thread was made as a lighthearted fun casual way to start a discussion. And is was all going well and everybody was contributing without insulting anybody. It was just a fun little thread.

I still maintain that anybody looking through the forum would understand its general purpose.

I do not make any money from this site.

My track record (both in the legal and music business) are the reason they asked me to be a mod on this site.

I know people are learning because I get people messaging me thanking me for my help... I know people are learning here because I see it in the forums.

Like any forum, there is a community of people... there are some who ask questions... there are some who answer questions... I believe I said the more experienced members are probably here more for the purpose of answering questions. That is all part of it being a learning environment. If you say you fall into the category of "coming here to help", then that is fine. And when you have a large group of people working together, you get some who know more than others. I say "people come here to learn" as a shorthand, because that is probably the majority... but there are all kinds here, and they know what they are here for. How's this: I'll say "everybody is here to help move forward in music".

It is not a scenario of "teachers and students"... I do not know of any forum that is a place where there are official teachers and they are the only ones with the ability to answer questions that are asked by the students. Every forum I know of is a community of people who all have the opportunity to contribute.

FP is not a "school"... that should be equally obvious (IMO)... Like I already said, the "sole purpose" is not to learn... The question was never "is learning the sole purpose of FP?"... the question was something about whether FP is trying to facilitate a learning environment... and it is a learning environment... a "learning environment" does not mean "nothing but learnin' all day all night and nothing else"... even the best universities do not have the "sole purpose" of learning... all work and no play makes jack a dull boy...

When you are big, there will always be people who want to talk smack about you... I hear people talking smack about just about every forum... it could be a personal agenda... could be a personal preference... could be a legitimate complaint or concern... could be any of a number of reasons. You can't please all the people all the time.


I do not feel the need to PM you... I was saying that you can feel free to PM me if you have some other questions that are beyond the scope of this thread.

I am not a "lawyer who has a knack for music"... I am a professional full time "music maker" who cared enough about my career to go to law school and spend time as a staff attorney at a large record label for the sole purpose of learning the business, making connections and furthering my own music career.


I have no idea why you think this thread would be "locked" or that mods would be PM'ing you or kicking you out. That doesn't happen. You can argue all you want. This is certainly not anything remotely like a situation where you would be kicked out or even having someone PM you with warnings...

...if you start 10 threads with solely with links to your viagra selling business... or hardcore porn pics... or selling drugs... then you would most likely hear from someone. But I don't know why you'd think anybody would have a problem with anything you are saying here.

...and who did I call a "moron"?

Anyone who knows me personally can tell you I can argue with a STOP SIGN and tell it it should paint itself green and say GO. It's just the nature of who I am

I am not really interested in having a discussion with someone who just wants to be contrarian. I am always happy to have a true debate, but I do not have time to argue for the sake of arguing.

If I knew this, I probably would have opted out sooner.

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------


___________________________________________
___________________________________________

TO ALL THE CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS OF FP:

Hey guys and gals,

I was just looking through the forums... randomly going to areas of the site to see the discussions people are having in the forums here at FP... (looking at it all from a distance, ya know?)

I have to say, I can see right away just from the titles alone you are all asking great questions... and in every thread I opened, I saw lots of great discussion!

Like I said, this thread/poll was started for the purpose of having some fun and mixing it up a bit (because engineers and producers should always be up for a good mix, right? ) and I can see that most of us were having fun together!

Sorry the thread got cut short... you all make me proud to be a part of this site!

Keep up the good work! I really mean that!

As always, I am here to help.
-Dvyce

 

[bandcoach]

Are we trying to facilitate a learning environment here?

I thought it already was; just some folks don't want to learn no matter what they are interested in - "I'll make it up and experiment and maybe someday I'll get it" and "Rules are for fuuls; I ain't no fuul" instead of "Why does it matter how I eq and whether I should compress at the end of the chain or the start of the chain?"

I didn't mention in this post above that I

• have two undergraduate degrees and
• have two post graduate degrees,
• ran a studio for 3 years as senior engineer and manager,
• have some training in electronics,
• am a high school teacher,
• was a university lecturer for several years
• was a conductor for a regional orchestra,
• was a conductor for a regional concert band and
• am a state-wide recognised expert in the application of music technology in the classroom,
• taught at State Music camp several years running
• play over a dozen different instruments very well (semi-pro to pro)

Why? Because it makes no difference what I say I am, what makes a difference is what I answer and how I answer it, that is the only approach to improving the forum if any improvement is needed - ensuring that you answer what you know and answer it to the best of your ability - if you don't know, butt out or preface it by saying "I'm not sure but I think it might be..."

I often end up going off-line for a few hours to write up the answer to a question complete with musical examples in notation and audio form, not because I have to, but because I want to and I can always use the work in my classrooms. I enjoy exploring the limits of someone's understanding, even my own and helping them move beyond it. This is how fp and other forums thrive and survive, through people who give up time from their lives to mentor and guide others through learning the things they probably struggled with themselves

 

[dvyce]

Why? Because it makes no difference what I say I am, what makes a difference is what I answer and how I answer it, that is the only approach to improving the forum if any improvement is needed - ensuring that you answer what you know and answer it to the best of your ability - if you don't know, butt out or preface it by saying "I'm not sure but I think it might be..."

I often end up going off-line for a few hours to write up the answer to a question complete with musical examples in notation and audio form, not because I have to, but because I want to and I can always use the work in my classrooms. I enjoy exploring the limits of someone's understanding, even my own and helping them move beyond it. This is how fp and other forums thrive and survive, through people who give up time from their lives to mentor and guide others through learning the things they probably struggled with themselves

I absolutely agree with everything you are saying.

Anything I could possibly think add here would be doing no more than restating what you have already said.

(which is what i will proceed to do )


Without having known your credentials, it was pretty easy for me to figure out that you were spreading good information here. Now that I see your CV, it does not change anything about what I already know... and just seeing your list would not have meant anything to me without seeing what information you put forth. (As we all likely know, a list of credits is not necessarily proof of quality-- Quality is proof of quality.)

I have personally enjoyed your musical notation examples (I have not come across any of your audio examples, though)... examples in notation form are not my main area of expertise, but i have been known to make audio and visual examples here on the topics of mic placement, waveform editing, analogue synth programming, acoustic treatment and such.

Thank you for choosing to be a part of FP in this way. It is surely appreciated.

 

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

Bandcoach you said:

Why? Because it makes no difference what I say I am,

Who you say you are and who you are proven to be are two different things, and if you guys would take a hint from the competition that is launching nukes at this site (again click the link I provided) people with verifiable experience trump everything else and limit the amount of wrong answers being provided. Would you be able to teach in a school environment if your credentials were not verified? No you wouldn't. A person can know all there is about a particular subject, but when it comes to a learning institution/environment, simply having the right answer or what you think is the right answer doesn't cut it.

what makes a difference is what I answer and how I answer it, that is the only approach to improving the forum if any improvement is needed - ensuring that you answer what you know and answer it to the best of your ability - if you don't know, butt out or preface it by saying "I'm not sure but I think it might be..."

Do you encourage your students to only answer if they know the correct answer or do you encourage all to participate and correct those who are wrong? And when correction is needed, do you insult them or do you use constructive criticism and urge them to try again? And I'm not saying that people shouldn't be sure, but as it was pointed out earlier, a lot of questions don't have answers that are black or white so there is a lot of wiggle room and interpretation.

I often end up going off-line for a few hours to write up the answer to a question complete with musical examples in notation and audio form, not because I have to, but because I want to and I can always use the work in my classrooms. I enjoy exploring the limits of someone's understanding, even my own and helping them move beyond it. This is how fp and other forums thrive and survive, through people who give up time from their lives to mentor and guide others through learning the things they probably struggled with themselve

And there is nothing wrong with this. However, this is not how FP is surviving if people are looking at this site as a joke and the mods see a problem. This is not how FP is surviving when a member who has verifiable #1 hits says 95% of what he has read here is a joke (paraphrasing because I'm on a different page from his post.) And that isn't a knock to him, that's his opinion as someone who has a verifiable work history.

 

[dvyce]

...and the mods see a problem.

(I just had to quickly get back in for this)

Are you talking about me? Please do not put words in my mouth. I have already told you this thread was not created because of some "problem"...

...and I will let Bandcoach respond for himself if he even cares to respond...

 

[bandcoach]

There is a difference between a classroom where you are teaching everyone the same material at the same, hopefully not too pedestrian, pace, and a forum where it is an individual who has a question requiring a solid answer.

In a classroom you are encouraging individual students to attempt the work regardless of their initial outcomes - it is not the initial outcome that matters, but the repeated application and practice of the material that embeds their understanding and knowing the material.

In a forum situation, you can accept that there are different ways to achieve the same outcome - I have no problem with this, in fact seeing different approaches to the same problem only enhances my own ability to answer stuff in the future. However, when people jump in and say forget what has just been said because:

• you don't need to know it, "just do you and you'll be right homie"
• this is the way to do it and they offer a solution/process that is so far removed from what is trying to be achieved it is laughable

I become frustrated and angry and engage them in some debate until it becomes clear that I am flogging a dead horse with someone who has no desire to actually think or learn but is willing to spout nonsense all day long in the hope that others will tire and let them "win". That is the sad part of any forum and one I find particularly annoying within the Theory and Composing areas here and elsewhere, as the types of questions asked there are for the most part seeking an explanation of applied theory. Most of the naysayers have no experience of applied theory or a very limited experience, yet they will argue for their right to derail the thread and denounce everything written it simply because how dare someone tell them they can't say that theory doesn't matter.

Then there are those who jump in and offer advice, couched in terms that make it clear they are not certain whether they should be giving advice or not, that is in no way related to the questions posed in the post and only marginally related to the title of the thread.

It goes on and on. In a classroom there is usually just the one source of knowledge or at least one guide in the acquisition of knowledge - I allow myself to be corrected by students who I know have an advanced understanding of the subject matter to begin with, but rarely do I allow someone get away with saying this is shite, why don't we just jam instead?

In a forum there are as many guides to knowledge as want to get involved. It becomes tricky to sift the grain from the chaff, which is where moderation should come in but the policy here is to allow the experts argue the case and to only step in when it becomes abusive and threatening - which is fair enough - we are after all capable of fighting our own battles intellectually. Sometimes however, I wish that the mods would be more proactive in telling certain individuals to take their game elsewhere (read some of the threads I post in and you will understand the two main people I would like this said to). But that is not how the place is run for now and I'm not losing any sleep over it - I just have to be vigilant and warn them off as soon as I can and counter the shite with facts and alternative approaches.

-------

This next bit is a personal opinion not related to the general debate here and should not be construed as anything else:
As for verifiable #1's, how can that be a criteria for industry know-how, I've seen #1's that have been bought and paid for, I have seen #1's that have been absolute gobsmacking freak songs that just hit the public imagination on the right day. I have more respect for the writers and the actual producers - the wo/men who suss out the arrangements, organise the recording, the marketing, the packaging than the faces/voices that appear for the individual songs. the faces get the glory and acclaim but the producers and back room people are the real talent in this industry.

 

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

(I just had to quickly get back in for this)

Are you talking about me? Please do not put words in my mouth. I have already told you this thread was not created because of some "problem"...

...and I will let Bandcoach respond for himself if he even cares to respond...

Are you the only mod here? Why don't you read this:

The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know...and how many have been those threads where I come in and see that everybody who answered something were totally or partially wrong. Without looking like a total a**hole, how the hell do you enter a thread and correct everyone else in it? No wonder we've lost some good people here. That kind of a situation is just frustrating and it tends to happen all the time. Add some overtly opinionated people who kinda know something in the mix and it's simply not a very pleasant situation anymore.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------

@ Bandcoach you said

There is a difference between a classroom where you are teaching everyone the same material at the same, hopefully not too pedestrian, pace, and a forum where it is an individual who has a question requiring a solid answer.

Different method, same end results. You want them to walk away more knowledgeable and to be able to apply the knowledge in the appropriate situations.

In a classroom you are encouraging individual students to attempt the work regardless of their initial outcomes - it is not the initial outcome that matters, but the repeated application and practice of the material that embeds their understanding and knowing the material.

See above and simply being able to “parrot” the material does not mean one comprehends it or is able to apply it. In the case of audio, more specifically the questions being asked, the initial outcome does matter as the same crop of questions will pop up and aside from actually hearing someone’s work after they’ve received the help, there is no way to verify that they’ve applied what was given.
How do you limit or eliminate points A and B? It’s obviously a problem so what can be done?

I become frustrated and angry and engage them in some debate until it becomes clear that I am flogging a dead horse with someone who has no desire to actually think or learn but is willing to spout nonsense all day long in the hope that others will tire and let them "win". That is the sad part of any forum and one I find particularly annoying within the Theory and Composing areas here and elsewhere, as the types of questions asked there are for the most part seeking an explanation of applied theory. Most of the naysayers have no experience of applied theory or a very limited experience, yet they will argue for their right to derail the thread and denounce everything written it simply because how dare someone tell them they can't say that theory doesn't matter.

How do we limit or eliminate the problem? I’d say theory does matter. I had to teach myself some theory and still pick up books on the subject, talk to my guitarist about certain aspects of it, etc. Nothing related to music should be in the “doesn’t matter” realm as everything matters. Now what happens is priority and emphasis may change depending on the person and their needs but I don’t think anyone is best served with that type of attitude floating around.

Then there are those who jump in and offer advice, couched in terms that make it clear they are not certain whether they should be giving advice or not, that is in no way related to the questions posed in the post and only marginally related to the title of the thread.

How do you solve this problem?

It goes on and on. In a classroom there is usually just the one source of knowledge or at least one guide in the acquisition of knowledge - I allow myself to be corrected by students who I know have an advanced understanding of the subject matter to begin with, but rarely do I allow someone get away with saying this is shite, why don't we just jam instead?

You’re speaking from a position of authority and with that authority comes experience. It’s like the difference in knowing how to use a compressor and when to use it. You can know how to use it all day long, but if you don’t know when you should use what is the point? A good teacher will be open to correction and a student that says something like “why do we need to learn this” needs to be shown exactly why learning will benefit them.

In a forum there are as many guides to knowledge as want to get involved. It becomes tricky to sift the grain from the chaff, which is where moderation should come in but the policy here is to allow the experts argue the case and to only step in when it becomes abusive and threatening - which is fair enough - we are after all capable of fighting our own battles intellectually. Sometimes however, I wish that the mods would be more proactive in telling certain individuals to take their game elsewhere (read some of the threads I post in and you will understand the two main people I would like this said to). But that is not how the place is run for now and I'm not losing any sleep over it - I just have to be vigilant and warn them off as soon as I can and counter the shite with facts and alternative approaches.

So maybe there needs to be a change of policy? It’s hard for me as a new member in a community with a ten year history to come in and start saying this needs to be done, that needs to be done, so hop on it. Anyone familiar with psychology and sociology would know that is a recipe for disaster and would lead to being ostracized, so I can’t do such things even though I know deep down these things would benefit the site.

This next bit is a personal opinion not related to the general debate here and should not be construed as anything else:As for verifiable #1's, how can that be a criteria for industry know-how, I've seen #1's that have been bought and paid for, I have seen #1's that have been absolute gobsmacking freak songs that just hit the public imagination on the right day. I have more respect for the writers and the actual producers - the wo/men who suss out the arrangements, organise the recording, the marketing, the packaging than the faces/voices that appear for the individual songs. the faces get the glory and acclaim but the producers and back room people are the real talent in this industry.

How can anything be a criteria for industry know-how? It is simply arbitrary or something you said was the criteria. Again, what makes a person qualified to answer a question here? Because they know the answer 100%? So let’s say there is a thread for how to mix a song for radio. Who is the reader more likely to listen to, the guy who gives the correct answer but history can’t be verified or the guy who gives the correct answer and with a verifiable history? I mean what does the industry itself think? You’re only as good as your last record. Oh you have to have a history of this and that.

 

[dvyce]

Are you the only mod here? Why don't you read this:

At this point in this thread? yes, I believe so. I was asking because you have put that on me several times already. And I am surely the mod who you are interacting with the most.

And that is why I asked "are you talking about me?"... you know... so I would be sure...

...Add some overtly opinionated people who kinda know something in the mix and it's simply not a very pleasant situation anymore.

but I think what he is saying is symptomatic of EVERY forum out there... those people are everywhere... and I actually feel that many times, those people allow you to explain facts more thoroughly and from different angles until, in the end, everybody else involved in the thread winds up learning much more than they otherwise would have...

...even if the person you were initially trying to reach never wanted to "get it"...






By the way, with all this talk about how important credentials are in determining whether a person's advice is worthy of being listened to... I'm surprised you have not listed your experience with teaching online... and creating educational internet forums... and turning forums around to make them successful... etc, etc

I believe you had earlier said that everything was in the links in your sig... but all I saw was some stuff about a group of a bunch of people with a music venture of some sort (I'm not sure which one of those people is you)

...and, again, not being sarcastic... just wondering.






(I always want to be done with these threads, but I just can't help jumping back in! ...but this time, I mean it! )

 

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

(plus, it is a bit difficult to quote bits of your post since you use so many color/size/font codes which make it a bit difficult with all these"

" everywhere... that is the one at the top of your last post, but similar ones are scattered throughout your post... that is fine, but it is just difficult to cut around all that and to make sure the correct closing code is also in place.)

And I find it extremely difficult when I have to cut chunks of text riddled with ellipses or chunks of text separated by five paragraph margins. No problem.

It looks to me as if you feel you have been "attacked"...

Why would it look like that to you? Have you read what you quoted? If I say I'm asking you what your intentions are, say I don't want to take things the wrong way and want to give you an appropriate response, how am I taking it as an attack?

If you didn't feel you were being "attacked", I don't see why you would be saying "in many instances, sarcasm can be used as an attack and i have done nothing to warrant such an attack so i am asking you what are your intentions?"

See above. Can sarcasm be considered an attack? Yes! So instead of me taking it as an attack and calling you everything except for a child of God, I asked about your intentions because I know that sometimes it is not an attack. You said something that can be taken several ways; I ask you which way did you mean it. If you don't see why that was done I have nothing else to tell you.

I have told you several times I was not "attacking" you. I did not intend for you to think you were being "attacked". The comment you keep referring to was so general in nature and had nothing personally directed at you, that I am surprised you would take it personally...

1. We're using a form of communication that is limited. What someone says, when they say it and how they say it can often be misconstrued and taken the wrong way.

2. Those who are used to critical reading and thinking ask questions and gauge answers before forming an assessment.

And why do you keep saying I am taking it personally when I just cut and pasted several different responses that showed that I never took it personally and relied on YOU to tell me how you intended the statement to come off? Either you are purposely bottle-spinning, are a selective reader or truly can't comprehend that I was allowing you to tell me your intentions before I took things the wrong way.

You continue to point out how "sarcasm can be used as an attack"... OK, but that does not mean "sarcasm is always attacking"... you say you have done nothing to warrant an attack... my comment was not personal... so why are you even having an issue?

You're the one that keeps bringing it up! Did I say sarcasm is always attacking? Lay off the word- jugglery and read what I'm typing. This isn't a matter of defending yourself, proving me wrong and attributing things to me that lack merit. Several responses ago I didn't even address the majority of what you were saying about the subject and ended the matter with this:

But since you said you didn't mean it as an attack, and since I was neutral and didn't take it any way, I'll simply take your word for it.

And I can’t forget this one:

But I didn’t take it as an attack, and you said it wasn’t an attack so it’s cool.

How much more clearer do you need it to be? Do I need to use the largest size font? Do I need to record audio and say it? Make a YouTube vid? I've plainly stated, several times now that I didn't take it ANY way. I waited for clarification on how you intended it and then I took your word for it.

So once again, I did not consider your statement as an attack because I let you clarify the statement, and after you did so, I took your word that it was not attack. Issue done, stop trying to put words in my mouth, I'm going to skip over anything else in your post relating to the subject.

You say I am "confusing asking the question with confusion and you shouldn't"... are you trying to say that you understood the purpose of FP is to help people learn but you were asking the question rhetorically?

Did you take it as me asking the question rhetorically? Maybe that is what you should have done instead of taking it as being sarcastic. We'd be in a far much better place right now and I wouldn't have to keep typing such long posts. Confusion comes from when you have two or more conflicting ideas or pieces of information. With that being said, me as a new member asking what it is we're trying to facilitate does not mean I am in a state of confusion. Do you understand now?

The truth is, I feel that (particularly in your last post) you are the one who is "attacking"...

If you do not see where you seem attacking, I will be glad to point it out to you. But, I will continue to speak to you without attacking you.

When a person has been falsely labeled as "hypersensitive", gives a common courtesy before they reply, yet have their words misconstrued over and over again, it isn't an attack when they cite a lack of professionalism and say they could say that by the way you handle things that it is clear why the site gets the rep that it does and why people leave.

I never said you mentioned musical ability. The only thing I ever said about your musical ability was to assure you that I was not attempting to personally "attack" you with an example I made regarding "sarcasm" in general. I mentioned it is the sense of "I am not directing this to you as an insult on your musical ability. I do not even know anything about what you do musically"...

Again, this goes back to my question. Given that you know nothing about me, what part of my post would lead you to form the assessment that the question was sarcastic? That is the question you've avoided a number of times now.

This thread was made as a lighthearted fun casual way to start a discussion. And is was all going well and everybody was contributing without insulting anybody. It was just a fun little thread.

Is that what it was? A lighthearted fun casual way to start a discussion? Is that why another member said they would agree to disagree with you?

I still maintain that anybody looking through the forum would understand its general purpose.

If they did, and behaved in such fashion, we wouldn't have this thread.

I do not make any money from this site.

And what is your purpose of telling me this? What you have going on with the owners is your business.

My track record (both in the legal and music business) are the reason they asked me to be a mod on this site.

See above.

I know people are learning because I get people messaging me thanking me for my help... I know people are learning here because I see it in the forums.

Yet the same questions persist on the board. "How can I..." "What is the best way to...", etc. In addition, there are answers that are waaaaaaaaaaay left field, answers that obviously paved the way for this thread to be created.

Like any forum, there is a community of people... [snip] but there are all kinds here, and they know what they are here for. [snip] How's this: I'll say "everybody is here to help move forward in music".

Your competition asked a good question that you and your cohorts need to examine. If this site were to close down today would it dent the industry? You have 200k people here yet I see ads to ONLINE music production degrees to universities. Think about that for a bit and let your business side kick in so you can understand what I'm attempting to convey to you--possibilities that you guys clearly are not taking advantage of.

It is not a scenario of "teachers and students"... I do not know of any forum that is a place where there are official teachers and they are the only ones with the ability to answer questions that are asked by the students. Every forum I know of is a community of people who all have the opportunity to contribute.

It is not a scenario of teachers and students? Why then did you use that analogy in previous posts? Yes, there are forums out there where only those who answer the questions are "qualified professionals" with a verifiable work history. One such type of forum would be a certain legal forum where if you answer or try to give legal advice, you sure as hell better use the disclaimer or you'll find yourself out. There is enough that you don't know to make a whole new world, so because you haven't been to a forum like that, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you extend what I'm saying to e-learning, there are classes where the students can participate and answer another students questions but ultimately it is the teacher answering the questions and having the final say.

FP is not a "school"... that should be equally obvious (IMO)... Like I already said, the "sole purpose" is not to learn... The question was never "is learning the sole purpose of FP?"... the question was something about whether FP is trying to facilitate a learning environment... and it is a learning environment... a "learning environment" does not mean "nothing but learnin' all day all night and nothing else"... even the best universities do not have the "sole purpose" of learning... all work and no play makes jack a dull boy...

Again, when a member who has a track record says that 95% of the advice on here is bs (again I'm paraphrasing) that is something to consider. When your competition takes it upon themselves to point out chinks in the armor that is something to consider. When you have the same type of questions and left field type answers in every other thread, that is something to consider.

Question: What are some things that would make this place a better learning environment? Has anyone ever considered making a poll asking that question and encouraging user feedback? IMHO, that would be more constructive as it is showing the user base that A.) the mods and admins are within arm’s reach B.) they (the users) have a voice and C.) the mods and admins are listening and implementing the changes or suggestions voiced by the community.

When you are big, there will always be people who want to talk smack about you... I hear people talking smack about just about every forum... it could be a personal agenda... could be a personal preference... could be a legitimate complaint or concern... could be any of a number of reasons. You can't please all the people all the time.

You can't please people all the time, but when a number of members who have a track record leave or they are vocal about a problem and voice it here, it is something that needs to be looked into. So if you want to forget the competition fine. If you want to disregard what other boards and people outside of here are saying, great. However, what you shouldn't do is disregard what the members, especially those asking for help are saying. Afterwards, you look at those who are truly providing help and see which ways you can make it easier for them to provide the help.

I do not feel the need to PM you... I was saying that you can feel free to PM me if you have some other questions that are beyond the scope of this thread.

I don't feel the need to PM you. At this point, you've been provided enough information that should set you and your cohorts on the way to making the site more prolific.

I am not a "lawyer who has a knack for music"... I am a professional full time "music maker" who cared enough about my career to go to law school and spend time as a staff attorney at a large record label for the sole purpose of learning the business, making connections and furthering my own music career.

And why exactly is this information important to me? What is the purpose of telling me this? Remember, you are the one who introduced "your lawyering days" as if it were something that I would find remotely important or pertinent to the subject, so what's your point now? That you are not a "lawyer who has a nack for music" but that you're a professional full time "music maker" who accomplished something?

Got it. I’m glad you were able to go to school, pass the bar, get your feet wet and do what you had a passion for.

I have no idea why you think this thread would be "locked" or that mods would be PM'ing you or kicking you out. That doesn't happen. You can argue all you want. This is certainly not anything remotely like a situation where you would be kicked out or even having someone PM you with warnings...

:sighs:

Let me quote what I've previously said:

I don't lash out at the first sign of an attack. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and allowed you to clarify your statement before I responded in a way that could have garnered a lot of bad attention. Now if you had said, "Yeah it was an attack so what?" things would be much more different, this thread would be on the verge of being locked and I'd have pm's telling me that I'm on my way out the door. Or I'd simply leave you with two sentences and be on my way.

Do you understand now? You take your gloves off and I take my gloves off. You take little shots at me and try to disguise them and I'll either do the same or take shots and not disguise it. Are such exchanges good for the site? No, but if I'm attacked I'm going to defend myself, and I don't care if it is you, another mod, the admins/owners, any member on this forum, etc.

I am not really interested in having a discussion with someone who just wants to be contrarian. I am always happy to have a true debate, but I do not have time to argue for the sake of arguing.
If I knew this, I probably would have opted out sooner.

Way to take a statement out of context (once again.) Trust me, I don’t like having to take my time making long posts, especially if the long posts are mostly geared towards repeating the same thing that has been stated more than once. If I had known going in that I would have to do so I would have simply said “OK” and left it alone.

 

[dvyce]

It’s hard for me as a new member in a community with a ten year history to come in and start saying this needs to be done, that needs to be done, so hop on it. Anyone familiar with psychology and sociology would know that is a recipe for disaster and would lead to being ostracized, so I can’t do such things even though I know deep down these things would benefit the site.

Actually, the truth is, it is all about the manner in which you propose something.

People frequently propose potential improvements for the site and their proposals are welcomed with open arms. In fact, I believe there are some threads asking for suggestions.

Regardless of whether your ideas are good or not, if you come in and say "this needs to be done, that needs to be done, so hop on it", you are not creating an environment where people will be open to your thoughts or ideas... even if you have been here (or anywhere) for 10 years.

But if you come in and say "Hey guys, how's it going? You know what might be a good thing to implement at FP? _______. I think that could really work. What do you think?"


So, yeah, you could have done those things.









(OK, I'm really done this time )

 

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

Round and round and round we go....where we stop...

Actually, the truth is, it is all about the manner in which you propose something.People frequently propose potential improvements for the site and their proposals are welcomed with open arms. In fact, I believe there are some threads asking for suggestions.

Good and more of them made by other members would be a great thing.

Regardless of whether your ideas are good or not, if you come in and say "this needs to be done, that needs to be done, so hop on it", you are not creating an environment where people will be open to your thoughts or ideas... even if you have been here (or anywhere) for 10 years.

If a person has been here for ten years, and they have a history of communicating that way (and things get done) people would be more open to listening to them as opposed to a new person coming in and doing it. And I'm not saying that I would do that because I know that is a good way to not be heard.

But if you come in and say "Hey guys, how's it going? You know what might be a good thing to implement at FP? _______. I think that could really work. What do you think?"

Now watch this:

So, yeah, you could have done those things.

I could have and this goes back pages ago to what I said I would have done if someone had simply answered with a yes or no.

 

[dvyce]

It is clear that we are not understanding what eachother are saying... I have not "taken my gloves off" or anything like that... I am trying to answer you as matter of factly as possible...

I am not trying to insult you.

Without looking back at this thread, i will just try to remember some stuff that I want to comment on and i'll call it a day.

I mentioned not making money from the site and why I was asked to be a mod here because you said something about the motivation here possibly being about money and you said something about mods credentials.

With the "thread locking" thing... I guess I am just not understanding why you think things would be different if I gave you some other response... I do not see how the thread locking and mods PM'ing you would happen in either situation.

The lawyer thing? I only mentioned it because there was something said about "slander" and "libel" and I was saying it in the sense of "I am not trying to make a thing out of it, but I am just mentioning the slander libel distinction because it is hard to get that out of your head after those years of it being drummed into your head in law school." It is not supposed to matter for any other reason, actually... it was only mentioned for that purpose.

And the distinction about "musician lawyer" or "lawyer musician"... I only mentioned it because you mentioned something about it... but I am a professional musician who decided to go to law school for the hell of it.... not a lawyer who followed his dream and plays music... once again, not necessarily important... it just seemed like it flowed from the conversation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people "agreeing to disagree"... People can have a discussion and come to an impasse and say "OK, we both believe what we believe, but it was fun!"... That is a perfectly friendly civil thing to do... I feel no need to force my beliefs on other people.

And, when I said I was going to put my responses together because it is tough to edit with the font/size/and/color codes, that was surely not a swipe against you in any way whatsoever. It is actually difficult to edit posts into small segments when all that code is present, so I was apologizing for not going through your post in a line by line fashion. (seriously, when you even take that to be hostile, I really think it is time for me to leave this conversation)

I think those are the only comments I need to make... I really just kinda skimmed through your last post, but those are a couple of things i picked out that are new... with the rest, I think my previous answers still stand.

But, yeah, you seem to think I am "taking my gloves off" and being hostile towards you or something... I am not.

I will really try to avoid coming back to this thread because I am not looking to be involved in a conversation in which you think we are "taking the gloves off"... That is not what I am trying to do... I will debate a topic for until the cows come home, but I have no interest in fighting on the internet... and since you seem to be taking everything I say in a very negative way, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------

I could have

I never said you still can't do those things.

Feel free to make a suggestion to a mod.

A good idea is a good idea.


I just meant you could have done those things in the course of this thread.

You can still present your ideas in that way.

You are surely not prohibited or banned from presenting your ideas.

At FP, we are always happy to hear what the members have to say.

(again, not being sarcastic)

 

[HERESY/KNOKK SHOPE]

It is clear that we are not understanding what eachother are saying... I have not "taken my gloves off" or anything like that... I am trying to answer you as matter of factly as possible...

I am not trying to insult you.

Without looking back at this thread, i will just try to remember some stuff that I want to comment on and i'll call it a day.

I mentioned not making money from the site and why I was asked to be a mod here because you said something about the motivation here possibly being about money and you said something about mods credentials.

With the "thread locking" thing... I guess I am just not understanding why you think things would be different if I gave you some other response... I do not see how the thread locking and mods PM'ing you would happen in either situation.

The lawyer thing? I only mentioned it because there was something said about "slander" and "libel" and I was saying it in the sense of "I am not trying to make a thing out of it, but I am just mentioning the slander libel distinction because it is hard to get that out of your head after those years of it being drummed into your head in law school." It is not supposed to matter for any other reason, actually... it was only mentioned for that purpose.

And the distinction about "musician lawyer" or "lawyer musician"... I only mentioned it because you mentioned something about it... but I am a professional musician who decided to go to law school for the hell of it.... not a lawyer who followed his dream and plays music... once again, not necessarily important... it just seemed like it flowed from the conversation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people "agreeing to disagree"... People can have a discussion and come to an impasse and say "OK, we both believe what we believe, but it was fun!"... That is a perfectly friendly civil thing to do... I feel no need to force my beliefs on other people.

And, when I said I was going to put my responses together because it is tough to edit with the font/size/and/color codes, that was surely not a swipe against you in any way whatsoever. It is actually difficult to edit posts into small segments when all that code is present, so I was apologizing for not going through your post in a line by line fashion. (seriously, when you even take that to be hostile, I really think it is time for me to leave this conversation)

I think those are the only comments I need to make... I really just kinda skimmed through your last post, but those are a couple of things i picked out that are new... with the rest, I think my previous answers still stand.

But, yeah, you seem to think I am "taking my gloves off" and being hostile towards you or something... I am not.

I will really try to avoid coming back to this thread because I am not looking to be involved in a conversation in which you think we are "taking the gloves off"... That is not what I am trying to do... I will debate a topic for until the cows come home, but I have no interest in fighting on the internet... and since you seem to be taking everything I say in a very negative way, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------




I never said you still can't do those things.

Feel free to make a suggestion to a mod.

A good idea is a good idea.


I just meant you could have done those things in the course of this thread.

You can still present your ideas in that way.

You are surely not prohibited or banned from presenting your ideas.

At FP, we are always happy to hear what the members have to say.

(again, not being sarcastic)

The only point I want to make is that I don't recall ever mentioning slander or libel. I know full well what those terms mean, when they are applicable, what the legal ramifications are, etc. Someone else may have mentioned it but I don't recall doing so.

As for everything else, ok.

 

[dvyce]

The only point I want to make is that I don't recall ever mentioning slander or libel. I know full well what those terms mean, when they are applicable, what the legal ramifications are, etc. Someone else may have mentioned it but I don't recall doing so.

As for everything else, ok.

Oh, suuuuuuuure you don't remember! because nooooobody ever mentioned slander or libel!

:SARCASM:



(just kidding... too soon?)


but seriously... Like I already said, it was just an aside... i think you said something about "do you know old Southern people" and then mentioned some colloquialism with the word "slander" in it... that's all.

 

[sleepy]

:SARCASM:



(just kidding... too soon?)

Crap. You just divided this thread by zero. Infinite loop.