Turn up the vocals or down the beat?
- Thread starter playa
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D
daddyj
Guest
i'd turn down the beat, where are vocals laying on the db range?
playa said:
well, that all depends on the levels...
If your overall levels are very low, you can turn up the vocal track if you have the headroom...
If the levels of the mix are so loud that your vocal is fighting to be heard, then lower the beat.
...it depends on what you have room to do.
M
MightyBeats
Guest
thnx..i needed this.
DJ Echo102
New member
try using a limiter or an expander to bring up vocals
X
xtraclip.com
Guest
dvyce said:
I know all mix guys are against this but and I understand why (most people over do it with the threshold), but if you use it in moderation before it hits 0dB whats the difference between a Limiter and a Comp. They are the same thing in theory. Or am I wrong.
EDIT: The only reason I got from a mixer is that it goes flat because most limiters are mono. ???
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There's no point in using a limiter, expander or a super louderizer maximizer masterizer plug. Just bring down the levels on everything else instead of raing the vocals.
Let's say you have an 8 oz cup. You need two parts water and 1 part whatever other substance. You put in 6 oz of water, you can't fit one more part of whatever else because then you need 3 oz of the other substance and your cup can only hold 2 oz more. Instead of building something around the cup to hold more water, just lower the water level to 4 oz so you only need 2 oz more to fit your ratio.
The added problem with the digital world is that 8 oz will be 8 oz no mater what. So if you spill, you'll get distortion no matter what. Even with limiting you will have distortion more likely than not.
Let's say you have an 8 oz cup. You need two parts water and 1 part whatever other substance. You put in 6 oz of water, you can't fit one more part of whatever else because then you need 3 oz of the other substance and your cup can only hold 2 oz more. Instead of building something around the cup to hold more water, just lower the water level to 4 oz so you only need 2 oz more to fit your ratio.
The added problem with the digital world is that 8 oz will be 8 oz no mater what. So if you spill, you'll get distortion no matter what. Even with limiting you will have distortion more likely than not.
xtraclip.com said:
...but you don't understand why.
It is not because "people do it over the threshhold" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
It is because you don't use those things to raise the volume/level of a track.
A limiter is used to keep the level from going above a defined value.
If your intent is to limit the peaks on the track so you can raise the level on the track fader... that is not going to be a good solution.
...It is fairly obvious that you don't really have a great understanding of what these tools actually do (no offense intended, but it is the truth.) If you try to use a limiter for this purpose, you will be squashing the track and doing more harm than good. If you did have a real understanding of these tools, you would be able to use them in a way to benefit your sound...
...but using them for the sole purpose of trying to squeeze some extra volume out of a vocal track will likely ruin the quality of your vocal track.
Think of it this way:
You just bought a beautiful new tall hat.
BUT, the hat is so tall that you can't stand up straight in your house without the top of the hat hitting the ceiling.
The problem is that you want to be able to stand up straight without the hat bumping into the ceiling.
So you think of a solution.
You decide to cut off the top of your hat so it won't hit the ceiling anymore.
SO, now you can stand up straight in your house without your hat getting rammed into the ceiling... in fact, your hat doesn't even touch the ceiling anymore.
BUT unfortunately, now your hat looks like crap and is ruined because you cut the whole top off of it like an idiot.
DON"T DO THAT TO YOUR VOCAL TRACKS!
(do you get what I am saying?)
xtraclip.com said:
Compressors and limiters work on the same theory (a limiter is a type of compressor)...
...but you shouldn't use a compressor as a means to make your tracks louder either.
xtraclip.com said:
The first thing you should do is never listen to what that "mixer" is telling you, because he seems to have absolutely no idea what he is talking about.
There are stereo limiters as well as mono limiters.
Whether a limiter is stereo or mono has absolutely nothing to do with any of this...
...not to mention the fact that 99% of vocal tracks are mono, anyway... but that is beside the point.
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X
xtraclip.com
Guest
I realized there is some confusion. I was talking in reference to the Waves L2 Limiter. I use it to boost the vocal by a couple of dB before it hits 0 and distorts, now most people would tell you to use a comp istead. Now in regards to not using a Comp to bring up the vocal every engineer Ive worked with who have credits with the Who, Doors, Queen, Beatles etc. all use a compressor to boost a vocal. If you guys don't use a comp what do you use?
PS: No disrespect but I have a diploma in Audio Engineering please skip the metaphors I understand the technical stuff more better. Im just looking for others opinions on how to mix and their techniques. Thankx
PS: No disrespect but I have a diploma in Audio Engineering please skip the metaphors I understand the technical stuff more better. Im just looking for others opinions on how to mix and their techniques. Thankx
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xtraclip.com said:
There is no confusion... a limiter is a limiter is a limiter.
xtraclip.com said:
not most people I know... but, anyway....
xtraclip.com said:
the first big difference between you and those engineers you are talking about (aside from experience) is that they were working with tape fo those projects... not recording to a computer (different headroom/clipping issues.)
Also, I don't know specifically what they were doing with the compressor to "boost" the vocal.
Are you sure they were talking about boosting levels with a compressor? Could thay have been talking about "boosting" presence? or punchiness? or distinctiveness? or something else?
In what context were they doing this?
I would really have to know more about the specifics of what they said before I can comment on their supposed use of compressors for the specific purpose of increasing a tracks volume.
xtraclip.com said:
I use the volume fader to turn the level up on a specific track.
xtraclip.com said:PS: No disrespect but I have a diploma in Audio Engineering please skip the metaphors I understand the technical stuff more better. Im just looking for others opinions on how to mix and their techniques. Thankx
OK, so there is not really any benefit to destroying the dynamics of a trac simply for the purpose of raising the level.
To do so would compromise the quality of the track in question.
If you want to compress or limit a track, you should do so because the characteristics of the performance require that sort of processing to achieve your sonic result.
One of the least relevant reasons I could think of for using a compressor or limiter on a vocal track would be to do so for the sole purpose of raising the level.
Why would you want to damage a performance just to drive the level higher? why would you want to do that when you can achieve the same result by lowering the tracks around it? and you would get your level boost while still retaining the recording quality of the track you are trying to boost.
Then, after you make room for the vocall by lowering the instruments around it, you can use a compressor or limiter for whatever creative purposes you have.
By the way, when you use a limiter on a track the track "goes flat" because you are literally flattening the track! (nothing whatsoever to do with stereo vs mono)
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X
xtraclip.com
Guest
dvyce said:
Now thats the answer I was looking for Thank You!!!
dvyce said:
Now when you say flat do you mean that it looses its dynamics?
Ive come to the realization that I just don't mix properly. Ive never really attempted it at my home studio simply because it would not work. Reason being that I'am still using tower speakers (which overemphesize low end) and my room is not acoustically treated so it would be like trying to weed out truth out of a lie.
Thanks for the help though now it makes sense.
xtraclip.com said:
good... glad I can help!
xtraclip.com said:
basically, yes
...but keep in mind, you will not be evening out dynamics (or evening out levels) in a way that sounds like it is evening out the performance on the track. If you want to even out an erratic vocal performance, you need to automate the level of the track... I would suggest you do that before you add any compression type processing.
xtraclip.com said:Ive come to the realization that I just don't mix properly. Ive never really attempted it at my home studio simply because it would not work. Reason being that I'am still using tower speakers (which overemphesize low end) and my room is not acoustically treated so it would be like trying to weed out truth out of a lie.
Thanks for the help though now it makes sense.
even if you can't get a great (or "proper") mix at home, you can still do a lot of practicing at home. You can work with and learn the basics of compressors and limiters and filters and fx and EQ's and every other processor. You can also work on automation techniques..
...there are plenty of things you can (and should) be working on at home to become better at your craft.
X
xtraclip.com
Guest
dvyce said:
Honestly I keep practicing but it never comes out right simply because of the set up. I had a project for school and I swore it was the best mix I ever did but when I heard in the studio on a pair of KRK8's it sound terrible. I know KRKs sound flat on the high end but it still was way off than what I was hearing at home. I kind of gave up but I still do my best. I got a guy that mixes my tracks for cheap so for now I leave to the pros but I still keep up on the theories an concepts of it all so I know what Im doing in a proper studio. Im just waiting to buy a pair of decent monitors so I can get used to them and go from there.Thats why the input is invaluable. Thanks
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DJ Echo102
New member
xtraclip.com said:I realized there is some confusion. I was talking in reference to the Waves L2 Limiter. I use it to boost the vocal by a couple of dB before it hits 0 and distorts, now most people would tell you to use a comp istead. Now in regards to not using a Comp to bring up the vocal every engineer Ive worked with who have credits with the Who, Doors, Queen, Beatles etc. all use a compressor to boost a vocal. If you guys don't use a comp what do you use?
Yea What do you guys use cause I usually use Waves Rvox to bring up my vocals. So I don't understand why you would say don't use a compressor to bring up vocals, but I do understand what you mean as for the limiter.
For me any compressor with a low ratio and threshold will work to bring up vocals.
When recording in the digital realm, it seems to me that to get a good mix you would start by recording the cleanest, most unprocessed signal you can that does not clip at any point in the recording (unless you intend it for some ungodly reason). Then, once all of your instruments are recorded that way, MIX THEM! I don't think that means you immediately start adding compressors and limiters and what not. Adjust/automate the faders to get the overall instrumental relationships the way you like them. That is the definition of mixing. You are combining all the individual parts of a recording to come together as a single dynamic composition. Kindof like making a great crabcake. How much do you really wanna taste the old bay vs. the lump crabmeat, and you might want the smell of garlic but no bitterness, and who doesn't like pinch of salt/pepper, and lord knows don't forget to get some butter flavor up in the piece, etc. Mixing to me is crafting the flavor of your audio crabcake. In the mixdown phase, my opinion is that processors (compressor/Limiters/noisegates/reverbs/parametric EQ's,, etc) are to affect the individual voices so as to allow them the proper placement or fit within the mix. For instance, lets say my snare drum doesn't stand out as clearly as I like in the mix, but I don't want to deafen my ipod listeners when it comes in halfway through my cello intro. So I might add some compression to the snare (after soloing it to hear exactly what changes I'm making) to change the dynamics of that particular sound. I'm not necessarily adding compression to increase the volume of the snare, that's what the fader is for. The compression in this case is to change the characteristics/dynamics of the sound, by maybe punching up the very dense beginning of the wave (the stick HIT and rattle of the digitized snares underneath the virtual drum) and thereby increasing the "presence" of that snare without actually increasing the volume. Or maybe I don't want the long trail off from those loose snares and so I might add some gate to the snare which may have a totally different effect. Then, when I go back to my full mix, I may have to REDUCE the level of that snare because now it has a different relationship to the other instruments that I just mixed. So yeah, I agree that when you're mixing a song, the worse thing you can do is to use a dynamic processor as a vlume control. That's kindof like getting a seeing-eye dog because you can't find your glasses.
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DJ Echo102
New member
Karl_tone said:
Em!!!! Makes Since. I have seen the light!!!!
BuildingBlocks
New member
This is a good, informative thread.
LOL @ "getting a seeing-eye dog because you can't find your glasses"
Haha, nice one!
LOL @ "getting a seeing-eye dog because you can't find your glasses"
Haha, nice one!