Radio-Ready Rap Vocals w/ Avalon, plz hlp

J

jizzer

Guest
- $200 Condenser Mic - brand is AT
- $2000 Avalon 737 mic pre, comp & EQ

...but we're still not getting that "radio" sound with the vocals. I really thought spending $$$ on the Avalon would get in range of what we hear on the radio, but I was wrong. Granted, it doesn't have that "recorded in bedroom" sound anymore (compressor seems to work;) ) - but it still doesn't sit on top of the mix all nice like I hear on the radio. The sound we're getting isn't very "realistic" for lack of a better word.:( If a better mi9c would make "all the difference" then I'd get one, but I wanted to ask what you guys thought first.

...and I find it hard to believe that Lil' Flip could get a sound the rest of us can't (or whoever:D), so...

..what's the biggest part to getting Radio-ready rap vocals?? All opinions and help are appreciated.
 
jizzer said:
-

..what's the biggest part to getting Radio-ready rap vocals?? All opinions and help are appreciated.
Click to expand...

-Mic placement
-Performance technique
-The right mic for the vocals
-Compression, EQ
-Tons of experience
-High Quality processing gear, you can't get it just with the avalon(nice start though), it's gonna be a combination of all these things.

A lot of the vocals are recorded, mastered and engineered by ppl who do this for a living in treated rooms, high quality converters....too much to name, but don't give up!

Read this for starters http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_record_vocals.htm
 
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You need to consider getting a better microphone perhaps, but not saying thats a problem.

Just because you own an expensive piece of gear, doesnt mean you know how to use it properly to achieve its full potential, so make sure you are.

Consider where and how you are recording your vocals, this is very important...If you are not using proper mic technique or recording in atleast somewhat decent room situation, you might as well not ven record.

EQ is your best friend....you need to maybe eq the entire instrumental track and notch out some frequency's to make room for your vocal...If not the entire track atleast some of whats going down within the track individually, as well as EQ'ing the vocal itself properly....this is a big pre-mastering step that will make the difference.

compression compression compression.

Make sure your gain staging your recording properly as well.

Are you taking these tracks to a "proffesional" who is mastering them for you, or doing it for yourself and expecting to get that "radio sound"?




555
 
PS, how are you recording this?.....into what, through what etc etc......what kind of a/d conversion is your sound going through...This is another huge thing that makes or breaks the difference I would think-
 
Thank you, thank you!! to Mastermind and Ebb.

Forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but I'm actually feeling better after what you guys said, or rather didn't say.

I can sorta gather that I have the right idea, and that I haven't missed some "obvious" step, right?

1.) I could try a better microphone.
2.) I SHOULD try using the EQ more effectively, hopefully making a space for everything to sit in.
3.) I could experiment with mic placement & technique. Currently we stand 12"-14" away, and we use one of those metal popper-stopper things.
4.) IF we have done the above correctly, we would then send the mixdown to a REAL mastering house like Bernie Grundman's (which I've previously used), as opposed to software mastering which we've already tried without much success.

Does this sound like the path to righteous rap vocals??:D

..and Ebb...your opinion here...should we keep the Avalon? or try the LA2a you mentioned elsewhere? I *really* don't want to be stuck with a mic pre that isn't right for us (even if it's a good one) - or do you think mic pre/compressors are doing pretty much the same thing at this level? I know you're going to probably say I should try the whole lot of mic pre's out there, but we just don't command that level of respect from Guitar Center yet;) and I was hoping there was a good, safe model we could go with for rap vocals.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
 
Man, I've never had the honor of recording through a 737, but they are very much an industry STANDARD, and are an obvious and good choice, it should suit you just perfectly for recording vocals through....With all due respect (I apologize if I am wrong) it sounds like you dont have a ton of experience and thats cool, these things just take time and practice and can take years to perfect so keep at it....Always room to grow no matter where ur at.

That being said about the avalon pre being a great choice, I have heard and read differences of opinions on the compressor and EQ, and think alot of people with the options elect to go through other standalone compressors over the 737....NO personal experience here, just what I've read up about, and these are probably the picky engineer types who have other $3,000 compressors at their fingertips, so I take it with a heavy hit of salt...Id be fookin exstatic to have access to one personally.

I honestly think if you go out and match a more quality condensor mic to your situation it will make a world of difference.....good luck-


Oh, and you never mentioned how your sound is being routed, as far as how you are tracking the vocals and to what...Just curious.



555
 
Ebbiguise555 said:
I have heard and read differences of opinions on the compressor and EQ, and think alot of people with the options elect to go through other standalone compressors over the 737....
Click to expand...

Actually, with hip hop cats, I've noticed it's quite the opposite. A lot of well-known hip hop producers love the 737's compressor. More often they opt for a different mic pre, though. I've witnessed this in several studio sessions. And, I've read that Dre's preferred signal chain for rap vocals is a Neve 1073 mic pre into an Avalon 737's compressor and EQ.
Now, I know of and have read about producers of other music genres who hate the 737--mic pre, compressor and all. But, in hip hop it seems to have become the holy grail of vocal compression.
It's a great piece. But, as someone has already stated, one great piece does not translate to quality recordings. Great recordings have been made with the use of much lesser gear.
Knowledge and experience will factor much more heavily here than will a better mic or an even more expensive compressor.
 
No doubt.....striving for that perfect quality or missing link to your sound is often nothing more than an attempt to make up for a lack of true TALENT and PERFORMANCE, which is really one of the main things that matters in the end to me.....Alot of the music I really love from throughout the years isn't this technically engineered high quality perfect sounding commercial recordings, its just great art in the end.

Not saying thats the case here or anything, but you get the point-




555
 
based on my experience with the avalon I always get that strong warm very satisfying radio sound. but in order for me to get that sound I run my vocals thru a neuman tlm 103 microphone in to a avalon 737 in to a digi 002 in to the hard drive .
 
Thanks to Smooth, Ebb, and trickdaddy for the additional responses, they are VERY helpful to me!!

Ebb - sorry for the delay getting back to you....we're using an M-Audio Transit soundcard to get sound into the PC. As if that wasn't bad enough, we go through a Fostex Mr8 digital HD thingy, then digi out of there into the soundcard:D - YES, I know how shady this is, but my buddy has to make due for now.:shrug: My studio has a Roland VS1680, an M-Audio Omni interface, and I use Logic Pro, so it's somewhat better - but still far away from real studios and I understand that;) (I do work for www.sunsetsound.com you don't get realer than that, so again I know what I should be doing if money were no limit.)

I am starting to get much better sound with the Avalon after more tweaking, and after reading the Tweakheadz article. Now I'm anxious to try out the Neuman mic suggested by trickdaddy.

But one thing...you guys keep mentioning "experience", and I admittedly have none recording vocals, however I know my way around the gear well, so some reading has helped me greatly. BUT for me it's also the problem of not being *sure* of what I'm after in the vocal sound. Lots of settings sound good to me, even though they are quite different. I'm also wondering exactly how mastering will affect the vocals. Guess the only way I'll be able to figure it out is to do some actual test, and send them to get mastered.:( In the meantime, I appreciate ANY tricks, tips, EQ settings that I can use to get closer to the right sound, if even just to narrow down my choices that will go to get mastered.

Anyway, sorry for rambling and thanks again to everyone.:cheers:
 
I wouldn't worry about EQ during the recording, and only use light compression. Getting a good vocal during tracking is key, but mixing it right is just as important. There you can add the compression and EQ to help make it "fit" in the track. As stated, the 737 is a great piece, and for tracking, gives you everything you need.

It really does take experience and time to get a great vocal, but even a novice can get a good recording (again, mixing it is a whole 'nother thing). You need a decent, but not necessarily a great room (there are lead vocals on the radio cut in control rooms). You should be a bit closer than a foot from the mic. Six inches, off hand? I'd actually have to go and measure mine, but I know it's not a foot away. Coming in closer, but not too close, captures the body and nuances of the voice better. Too close adds bass because of the proximity effect.

I use JoeMeek's optical compressor when I track, so there's no threshold or ration control. However, I only turn the compression knob up to usually no more than 25% (or pointing to 9 0'clock). With other compressors, it's a 2:1 or 4:1 ratio, and I play with the threshold between 0 and -10db. I usually start with the attack and release about midway and adjust from there during run throughs. If I EQ, which I usually don't, I may cut the lows just a tad, and add a touch of air up top (12khz usually). Record it hot, but leave a decent bit of headroom always, just in case.

Take your time and experiment really. Track the vocals with all sorts of settings. If you work primarily with one or two vocalists, that's great because you can experiment until you get a setting that's great for them, and you can use that for most times when you cut.

I'd also recommend investing in another mic, a tube mic. I believe it's the AT4060 that some top engineers have been buzzing about (George Massenburg among them), plus the tube offerings from Rode (the NTK and K2) are fantastic. A better mic will only help your cause.

Good Luck!
Peace
 
I have the article that Smooth L was talking about. Dr Dre (actually Vito) uses the compressor on the Avalon (pres are Neve 1073) at a ratio around 7:1 with the threshold at 0 and a medium attack and fast release. They are gettin anywhere from 3 to 7 db reduction. The mic they use is a Sony C800-G

Jimmy Douglass(Timbaland engineer) uses a Neve VR channel into a 1176 during tracking. And a La2a during the mix down. The mic they use is a U87.

The mic that you have is part of the problem. You are going to have to upgrade you mic, but you already know that. Also check the acoutics in your room, especially if it is a home studio. You should also keep your recording chain to a minimum.

If you could post a track, it would help a lot on really pinpointing the problem.
 
Oh yeah, don't try to compete with actual Radio version. There has been another round of compression added to the song. Stick to a CD. But you have to remember that the CD has also been mastered(more compression).
 
Wiggum said:
Oh yeah, don't try to compete with actual Radio version. There has been another round of compression added to the song. Stick to a CD. But you have to remember that the CD has also been mastered(more compression).
Click to expand...
Im glad someone mentioned this as the use of compressors and exciters at radio stations is just over the top, and the goal is "Louder is better".

Dont listen to the radio and want to sound like that. It is squashed crud with no room to breathe...dynamics are your friend!

Mastering too will surprise you greatly, how much more "Pro" your bedroom recording will sound.

And of course, as everyone has mentioned here, microphone. But make sure that you get a mic that suits whomever will be using it, as different voices work with different mics.

You will find, that 90% of the time, it is the equipment that makes something sound pro. Track in a great room, with a great mic, through a Neve console....onto analogue tape, and bingo! You have those dream vocals you hear...

Good luck!
 
Equipment helps, and that's what I said before about getting a good vocal sound, but... A top engineer can make your "bedroom" equipment sound a lot better than you can, and will get a better sound out of the top gear than you can. That's their life, and they spend a lot more time doing it than pretty much the majority of people on this site.

Having all that gear still means nothing if you don't know how to use it.

I do agree about the radio comment. You're better off judging off of commercial CDs. The've gone through the mastering stage, but they're still the way to go to check your quality.
Peace
 
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