Mixing With a Limiter

[Guest]

Anyone ever produce a record or mix one with a limiter placed before the ouput?

I've read some stories of people doing this. But my thing is, if your limiting something that say peaks at -10db (due to the limiter) that isnt a real number. So you mix an entire piece (beat, music, instrumental) with that limiter then when you export as a wav or aif file it looks like THIS WITH very little peaks/valleys.

 

[everbeatz]

I'd recommend using a clipper instead

 

[Oxygen Beats]

Yeah I do it all the time. If you listen to anyone who's good, record the audio output of your soundcard and you'll see they do the same. All the artists on the top beats/instrumentals charts do it. But the only instrument that should ever really be effected is the kick (and on occasion the snare). All your other instruments should be around -6db to -14 db. Listen to my stuff at OxygenBeats.com. It's all done that way.

 

[audiotecnicality]

I barely ever use limiters on a mix - once in awhile on a really squirrelly snare drum, maybe. To me, the principal purpose of a limiter is to reduce dynamic range, and I've not heard of *anyone* that recommends doing this during the mixing stage - rather, the goal is to preserve dynamic range as much as possible until mastering.

Then during mastering, I use a stereo-bus compressor, EQ, any stereo image enhancers I might want, and *then* a limiter, right before dither. Out of any of that mastering chain, I only use a stereo-bus compressor as some 'glue' during the mixing stage.

 

[ShottyGunzBeatz]

Limiters are just glorified compressors - there overall purpose is to control the volume of the signal - Unless the volume control is not doing it for me and I need a little extra snap I will throw that on - If it doesn't need it I don't use it - These plugins are all just tools I won't use them just because they are there - Dave Pensado said something in one of his videos that really stuck in my brain he said:

Before you place something in the mix ask yourself why

Basically if I have no good reason to throw an effect on then I have no business putting it on

Ultimately to answer your question if the master output needs some gain reduction but keep the overall volume then I will put a limiter on otherwise I leave that channel alone

 

[audiotecnicality]

Limiters are just glorified compressors - there overall purpose is to control the volume of the signal

This is true. But their applications are completely different. Compressors have attack/release times that are slow enough to be musical. The sole purpose for a limiter is to take un-musically-fast peaks and reduce them so that you can raise the average (RMS) volume.

Let me recommend to you that if you're mixing so hot that you need a limiter to tame a peak or else it's clipping, that you should just mix at a lower average volume so you don't need to introduce the limiter at all.

 

[ShottyGunzBeatz]

This is true. But their applications are completely different. Compressors have attack/release times that are slow enough to be musical. The sole purpose for a limiter is to take un-musically-fast peaks and reduce them so that you can raise the average (RMS) volume.

Let me recommend to you that if you're mixing so hot that you need a limiter to tame a peak or else it's clipping, that you should just mix at a lower average volume so you don't need to introduce the limiter at all.

On the first part - I am glad you brought up the point of attack and release which is a major detail that I left out - I was mainly saying that if you wanted to you can turn practically any compressor so that it acts like a limiter

On the second part - I usually only do that on ruff mixes to show to my artists to see if that's what they are looking for. If I am releasing my music to the public I will sometimes set up my Master Bus in the following way:

1. Waves Q10 - Depending on the track I like to roll off any unnecessary frequencies 23Hz and below in a nice gentle curve. Then depending on how I mixed it - whether starting with all channels down and bringing them up slightly or I decided to let it bounce a little above -2.0dB I will use the faders on the Q10 to turn it down so that it's -2.0dB or below.

2. Waves L2 - Depending on the track I like to set my out ceiling to either -0.3 or -0.2dB then by trusting my ears I'll bring down the threshold so its sounding louder but not squashing the track too much. Then if I want I will mess with the Release or IDR settings

But of course I like to experiment so all that can change - As long as it doesn't go into the red too much and doesn't cause listener fatigue I will keep it - The worst thing you can have happen is having someone catch a headache from too much digital distortion right lol

 

[Oxygen Beats]

Actually to clarify, I actually use Cubase 6's maximizer, with the boost/optimize knob turned down so that it functions like a limiter (it's just that Cubase's and many limiters are just extreme compressors and don't quite "fully" limit, whereas the maximizer absolute allows nothing to go over the set db level). There's not really any reason to NOT put this on your mix, as the only thing it effects are the things that clip. Even if you kept everything under 0db, it wouldn't harm anything. But like I said, the only things that should be loud enough in the mix to get effected by this should be the kick and occasionally the snare. If you're not doing this, it means your mix is way too quiet to be on a professional level. And from the sounds of it, you're probably mixing your instruments too loud relative to your kick. At least, I'm speaking from a beat-makers perspective. If you're mixing rock or country or whatever, this doesn't apply as the kick or the "beat" is not the main attraction. If you think I'm wrong, just listen to my stuff. Hope this helps, guys!

 

[krushing]

I'm not sure if I understood the question correctly - are we talking about using limiters in general or mixing into a limiter vs. mixing & limiting after the mix is done?

 

[~X~]

 

[laurend]

Mixing thru a limiter isn't a good idea except for live performances. If you have some gain reduction of the limiter during you're mixing that simply means you're too loud. Some people use limiters to increase the average volume of their mix. This practice prevents any further mastering. A limiter must be the very last stage of the audio chain.

 

[Oxygen Beats]

The limiter (or whatever plug in you use) should only be used to keep the kick and the snare from clipping. It should have no effect on the rest of the mix, as the rest should be much quieter. But if the kick/snare aren't loud enough, it's going to suck. Keep in mind that this only applies to pop/hip hop music; not rock and country and what not.

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure if I understood the question correctly - are we talking about using limiters in general or mixing into a limiter vs. mixing & limiting after the mix is done?

Do you mix & Create a record with a limiter already on. Ex. I open up Reason 5, place a limiter( maximizer) at the top right below my I/O and then turn the ouput to say -10db. Then proceed to ad instruments and drum patterns.

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ----------

A lot of these posts seem to contradict each other. I think as crushing said the question wasnt as clear. Of course I COULD put a limiter after Im done mixing and use it to turn it ip if you will. But I mean before you even start period.

I can control my kicks & snares w/o compressing them to life or brickwalling them. My question really is if you put a limiter on your track before you begin to actually produce the record how will you get an accurate reading of your individual channels? If there led lights are way past the red to the point where there are no lights illuminated but your limiter vu readings are set to -10db your going to think that your mix is clean & smooth. When in reality when you import that WAV into say Pro Tools your going to have a audio file that does peak at -10db but there will be zero dynamics and the visually the wav will be a solid block with little to no peaks/valleys.

Personally when I mix my music (or beats) my master fader is turned down at least to 50. Then I adjust each of my channels individually. This way i have more headroom to boost or cut if needed on sounds that i want to stick out; like a kick or snare. Once I get a nice clean mix ill export 96/24 & import into protools in which I will attempt to "master" the record with levels suitable for artists to actually record over with HEADROOM.

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

Mixing thru a limiter isn't a good idea except for live performances. If you have some gain reduction of the limiter during you're mixing that's simply means you're too loud. A limiter must be the very last stage of the audio chain.

Thank you! Thats the answer I was looking for. lol

 

[CPhoenix]

Honestly i'm starting to use limiters less and less man.

There's really 2 scenarios I've found maybe using one... which is getting more rare. 1) Once i'm done completely mixing the track. I use it to give it a little volume/punch boost. Too much though destroys the sound I worked so hard to achieve very quickly. 2) If I'm mixing a full production (self-produced beat + newly recorded vocals), i may limit some vocals to prevent them from going beyond a certain DB level.

That's really it man. I personally think I achieve better results with compressors, transient shapers, EQ, fader adjustment and other tools.

 

[Guest]

Honestly i'm starting to use limiters less and less man.
That's really it man. I personally think I achieve better results with compressors, transient shapers, EQ, fader adjustment and other tools.

Exactly, a Good mix doesnt really need a limiter unless it is the last piece in your signal chain. I've never put a limiter on vocals. I dont compress heavy eaither..very very light. When you start limiting & raising the threshold to much your trying to add space thats not there. which is why it starts to sound distorted & crushed.

 

[Oxygen Beats]

It's funny how many people on here say they mix at say -50db. That's ridiculously low. Nothing in your mix should be -50db. If there's something at -50 db, you should just take it out completely because it's wasting a small amount of headroom and memory. When you get used to mixing, you realize what general levels things should be at and make minor adjustments from there. Only noobs need to start ridiculously low because they creep up the faders like crazy! Analyze the wave form of a professional producer like one of the top charters on soundclick. You'll see that the kicks (and snare many times) will just about get to 0db, and the parts that are pure instruments are around -14 to -8db (sometimes -6db). Seriously, go do this! Stop talking about crap and actually LEARN something....

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

Once again, you're NOT BOOSTING with a limiter. Only limiting the spots where the kick and the snare hit so that it doesn't clip.

 

[Guest]

It's funny how many people on here say they mix at say -50db. That's ridiculously low. Nothing in your mix should be -50db. Stop talking about crap and actually LEARN something....

Did I offend you? lol First I never said -50db. I said "50" as in general levels. I use Reason, so the faders arent marked at -50 to +15, its marked from 0 to 127. Also I am no "Noob" as you say. Your simply reffering to a limiter to a kick/snare. Im referring to the ENTIRE mix. Why is it your compare professional producers to soundclick??? I would never say that. No disrespect to anyone their but thats like saying Johnny Juliano is on the Same level as Kenny Lewis or Dave Pensado or Phil Tan......

Im not going to reference my tracks to soundclick beats. Why? Because those beats are limited to the teeth. They arent mixed for artists to rap or sing over. There meant to please the listener. With the intent to grab their attention first from the overall loudness of the mix. Once they lease that beat those levels stay the same & there is literally no headroom. "You;ll see that the kicks (and snares many times) will just about get to 0db" - well this is my point exactly, if its already peaking at 0db how am I supposed to fit vocals into that????

I was actually not "talking crap" if you will. I was looking for a direct answer. Soundclick beats are a big reason why there is even a "loudness war." If I have a great mix but its significantly lower than another beat whose mix isnt that great (but that kick is there.....) then the general audience is going to leer over to that sub par mix.

 

[laurend]

You'll see that the kicks (and snare many times) will just about get to 0db, and the parts that are pure instruments are around -14 to -8db (sometimes -6db). Seriously, go do this! Stop talking about crap and actually LEARN something....

Your levels are right except that professionals prefer a conservative -0.3 dBFS for peak values. Note also that those levels are only reached AFTER mastering, not at the mixing stage.

Once again, you're NOT BOOSTING with a limiter. Only limiting the spots where the kick and the snare hit so that it doesn't clip.

If your limiter inserted on the master section reacts during your mixing, that's because you're too loud. If you have troubles with peaks on snare and bass drum, then just use a compressor for this tracks, not a limiter on the stereo mix.

 

[Oxygen Beats]

I took no offense. Don't worry. I'm just a little worried about your mixing methods. Soundclick isn't the reason why there is a loudness war lol. But the people on there are on a professional level. Once you get good enough, you can't say that one producer is better than other. All, or at least most, the top charters on soundclick are on the same level as other pro producers. You're missing out by not checking out the great music on soundclick. Those producers get a lot of money, because they (a) have great sound choice (b) have excellent compositions (c) know how to mix. I didn't say you were "talking crap". Rather, I said to everyone that instead of "talking ABOUT crap" you should actually go do some experiments and study a little more, just like you were in school. It's your job to educate yourself and learn as much as possible. So consider analyzing professional waveforms like a "lab" lol and don't forget to use a graphic EQ when analyzing!

 

[~X~]

Mix with each of your channel faders low enough so the entire mix peaks around -8 on the master fader. That's how you have headroom. You can cut down your master fader for headroom, yeah, but thats 'bad practice' in most people's book and it should be left at unity gain.

Seriously, go do this! Stop talking about crap and actually LEARN something....

Only noobs need to start ridiculously low because they creep up the faders like crazy!

So im guessing 90% of professional mixing engineers are noobs. IMHO, only noobs compare soundclick/rockbattle like their the most professional sounding mixes in the world. They're actually not. Their mixes are either overly bright/brittle and limited to death. Even with a professional mix most of them WONT sound as good as it could because for some reason the instruments soundclick producers tend to use aren't as rich in quality as whats available.

Analyze the wave form of a professional producer like one of the top charters on soundclick. You'll see that the kicks (and snare many times) will just about get to 0db, and the parts that are pure instruments are around -14 to -8db (sometimes -6db).!

You should stop analyzing waveforms and start mixing with your ears. Waveforms barely tell you anything. Another tracks frequency response won't help you mix better either. Understanding proper mixing technique will.

Once again, you're NOT BOOSTING with a limiter. Only limiting the spots where the kick and the snare hit so that it doesn't clip.

I heard its possible to turn down all your faders equally so it doesn't clip.