DAWs making your music quieter?

B

Beats_BANG!

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i've noticed that whe i render my songs as a .wav file that the volume is lower than when it is playing in my DAW. I searched through the preferences and checked the help inside the program and found nothing refering to what i'm seeing. Has anyone else experienced this in any DAW? I run Acid Pro 6.
 
That shouldn't happen - If you render / import into the same project that still happens?
 
Regardless of where his master fader is, its coming out quieter after mixdown. So, it doesn't matter where his master fader is?

VERY strange. OP: When you are playing back the mixdown, are you playing it in your DAW still? or, using an external media player?
 
how are your levels? Because maybe you are mixing with your volume up, but then bouncing it with crappy levels....
 
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easy.

the exported song, in whatever format, sounds quieter because WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER or any player opening up in WINDOWS or whatever platform you're using, has its volume control at a much lower level than the DAW's internal volume control ... All he's saying is it sounds quieter in COMPARISON ... if he were to open up the wave file of the song in the DAW and the wave file of the song in an external audio editing program he will see that the waveforms look exactly the same, which confirms that the exported file is not QUIETER ... just his PERCEPTION of it is, merely because of the volume difference set within the system between the two environments: the DAW and the MEDIA PLAYER.

don't you know.
 
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I'd have to second that I admit to my own stupidity I did the same thing and it was my WMP having it's volume lower other than that my project sounds the same in Sound Forge as it does in Sonar so it was WMP
 
illapino said:
easy.

the exported song, in whatever format, sounds quieter because WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER or any player opening up in WINDOWS or whatever platform you're using, has its volume control at a much lower level than the DAW's internal volume control ... All he's saying is it sounds quieter in COMPARISON ... if he were to open up the wave file of the song in the DAW and the wave file of the song in an external audio editing program he will see that the waveforms look exactly the same, which confirms that the exported file is not QUIETER ... just his PERCEPTION of it is, merely because of the volume difference set within the system between the two environments: the DAW and the MEDIA PLAYER.

don't you know.

actually bro, I am opening the wav file up in Sony Sound Forge and the wav file is coming from the Sony Acid Pro. The change in the levels is visual MORE than it is aural, but either way i've fixed the problem, i merely overcompensate a little bit for the volume it loses when rendering.
 
I had a problem with Audition doing this after mixing down. It would do a -3 db cut any file mixed down. All I had to do was turn this option off.
 
i my experience when the bit rate has changed and dithering has occur, the sound loses something. most of the time it's not a big loss though.
 
^^^^ i agree its not a big enough loss that i cant compensate for, but if is a decibal cut then its ****ed up they dont give me an option to turn it off. And its not dithering i record in 16/44.1 all the time.
 
Beats_BANG! said:
The change in the levels is visual MORE than it is aural, but either way i've fixed the problem,.


Are you saying that you don't actually HEAR a difference, it just looks different on the meter? If it doesn't effect how you hear the track, whats the problem?
 
yes you can hear the difference, but it is not like it goes from 0db to -12db or nething, and the visual change is the same story it just looks worse than it sounds, but like i said i'm over it cuz when i'm finished with the mix i just push the master fader up a lil and it comes out the same, and i know this for sure, i checked the analysis before and after rendering.
 
In Audition the feature is called Stereo Panning Mode. You can choose Left/Right Cut (logarithmic) or -3db Center. -3db Center is probably what you have your DAW set to. Check under your multitrack options in your preferences, it should be there somewhere. I agree, the -3db cut didn't mess with anything in the track besides the volume when it happened to me so it's really don't a huge deal.
 
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whoever's talking about "DITHERING" taking something away from a rendered song, please elaborate. Lots of these export features don't make sense to me being the MUSICIAN (not an ENGINEER), so please tell me what Dithering means and what it does since most DAW manuals (like FL) don't completely explain the science behind most of their functions, as if they're expecting everyone to have such knowledge prior to .............

THANKS
 
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i think i know where the problem lies. (well, not really a problem)

fruity loops uses a more efficient "sound-engine" (more exactly: a faster interpolation algorithm) during realtime playback. the rendering is usually done with better interpolation filters. interpolation is needed as soon at least one sound is pitched. you can set that filter somewhere in the render options, look out for terms like "linear", "quadratic", "128 point sinc", and similar.

that explains why a track rendered in fl will sound, look and peak slightly differently than the "low quality" realtime version.

a low quality interpolation creates far more fuzz and digital dirt than a high-quality interpolation (like huge sinc-filters). that's why some may think that the dirty version sounds better, but from a technical point of view - it isn't. it has sonically the same effect as creative sample-rate reduction: alot non-harmonic content is created, the high end sounds harsher, everything is more "aggressive". but there are drawbacks as well: the low end isn't really deep anymore, the mids loose alot transparency, and the high-end sounds grainy.

that's the reason why you may think the realtime version is "louder" than the rendered version. but - and here's the important point - the better interpolated version (the rendered file) will sound much cleaner, more transparent, everything will sound clearer. the "loudness" you are missing in the rendered version is mostly "bad" distortion you simply can't repair later.

that's a good reason to stay away from that tool IMO. simply because the signal you hear during production will come out differently after rendering. impossible to make accurate decisions during the production, i call that "deception by design". however, this doesn't happen when using vsti samplers. it happens only during fl's internal pitching process.

anyway, try to use the same interpolation filter during realtime-playback and rendering (when possible) to avoid any surprises.

illapino said:
whoever's talking about "DITHERING" taking something away from a rendered song, please elaborate. Lots of these export features don't make sense to me being the MUSICIAN (not an ENGINEER), so please tell me what Dithering means and what it does since most DAW manuals (like FL) don't completely explain the science behind most of their functions, as if they're expecting everyone to have such knowledge prior to ...

here's the best dithering explanation for non-technical people. i think it will help:

"…one of the earliest applications of dither came in World War II. Airplane bombers used mechanical computers to perform navigation and bomb trajectory calculations. Curiously, these computers (boxes filled with hundreds of gears and cogs) performed more accurately when flying on board the aircraft, and less well on ground. Engineers realized that the vibration from the aircraft reduced the error from sticky moving parts. Instead of moving in short jerks, they moved more continuously. Small vibrating motors were built into the computers, and their vibration was called 'dither' from the Middle English verb 'didderen,' meaning 'to tremble.' Today, when you tap a mechanical meter to increase its accuracy, you are applying dither, and modern dictionaries define 'dither' as 'a highly nervous, confused, or agitated state.' In minute quantities, dither successfully makes a digitization system a little more analog in the good sense of the word. – Ken Pohlmann, Principles of Digital Audio, 4th edition, page 46"

and now, my technical explanation:

dither decreases the SNR slightly.

without dither, quantization noise during truncation (bit-depth reduction, for example from 24bit to 16bit) will easily turn systematic, and the ear is very sensitive to that "pattern". For example, for a sine wave test signal, the quantization error will concentrate mostly in a small number of spectral lines.

now we add dithering, and the quantization noise turns more into random white noise.

If you would like to hear the difference, record a quiet note that fades away into the noise floor (piano or guitar) with and without dither.


hope this helps, too.
 
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