Analog outboard gear vs. high-end plugins

Departure

Departure

New member
They're getting pretty damn close to analog with a lot of the plugins lately... However, I'm realizing that picking up an old outboard compressor off of craigslist for $600 bucks is a much better investment than downloading some of the best plugins on the market for $500, simply because of the warmth and bleed you get from analog circuitry.
However, this is completely dependent on the equipment, analog shit tends to break and get worn down, maintenance is expensive, etc.

I've heard a lot of people saying that they prefer the sound of digital over analog lately... Anyone feel this way or care to comment? I'm interested to know why.

I tend to like that analog sound for some things and that cold digital sound for others.. kind of application based. What're y'alls opinions?
 
I hate digital stuff all and every aspect of it. I'd much rather hands on music production than staring into a screen. Try as they might there is no way they will be able to re-produce the analog sound in the digital domain. VA synthesizers come close but alas....no cigar. Given the choice if I was to be able to make music with all the stuff I'd need or want I'd pick old analog stuff over digital any day.

The rise in the digital music has lead to a drastic decrease in the feeling and effort put into music. Not just the artist who made it but also by the mixing and mastering engineers. Coupled with the loss of a lot of the analog equipment I dare say the music of the future looks bleak judging by todays standards.
 
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True. Though I dislike a lot of the tonal qualities of digital equipment and plugins, they ability to program and automate every aspect of something is one that shouldn't be overlooked. IMO, that's where digital catches up to Analog in terms of performance. Digital wins the price war hands down, but pretty much ends up costing you more than you saved in shitty sound.

I'm just at the point where I'm giving in to using digital as long as its quality, and Analog anywhere I can possibly afford it. Unfortunately, I'm broke as hell, and I'm using digital for pretty much everything except bouncing a few tracks through an analog compressor from time to time or snagging my buddy's tape delay.
 
Yes there are some advantages of using digital like the ones you mentioned and the price of the stuff being a lot cheaper than the analog gear. People will always debate this analog-vs-digital but I guess you just have to keep up with and change with the times or stay in the past with your out-dated obsolete analog stuff. But I think maybe having a mixture of some elements of the two isn't a bad thing. I just bought a TR-707 and now I'm looking for an synthesizer, mixer and compressor.
 
I think it's a matter of what you're used to hearing. The analog format has been around for a longer time where as years ago, the digital realm was still in it's infancy. Look at the debates and misinformation pertaining to digital head room that ran amuck. For example, "recording as hot as possible or just under 0db" to more recent studies, opinions, articles and essays saying it shouldn't be done because there is enough headroom there. There is still debate pertaining to which is better, 96k to 44.1 or 88.2 to 44.1, so this is something where the technology is still being fine tuned and as it advances, and more people get their hands on it, the bugs, misconceptions and everything else will be worked out.

Personally, I have few pieces of outboard gear. I use plugins mainly, but when it comes to tone/sound generators, I'm all hardware and some of that, like my mpc 4000, I rarely even use. I've worked in large studios, worked in small studios but access to better gear, the ability to use it (or an enginner who can show you how to use it), knowing when to use something and a schedule permitting it's use can take you a long way.

In closing, use whatever is best within your budget and skill set to yield the desired sound. If it's a plugin use it, if it's analog gear use it.
 
I prefer outboard compression over ITB compression in most cases; you can push compression harder with hardware. With anything else, I'm mostly ITB.
 
The question is: is the rest of your chain up to par to deal with better outboard?

If your converters can't capture the sound that you get out of your compressor, then you might lose more than you gain.

If I had to choose, I'd upgrade my D/A and monitors over have mediocre converters and a good compressor.

I've always wanted to go outboard but it just wasn't practical for me. It makes sense if you have a board that can store all your settings, like a digital board or a high-end analog, but most of us don't have that luxury to go all analog.

I do think there's value in a good outboard compressor if it has good character but I'd question running outboard just for the sake of running outboard.
 
I agree with Heresy in that it is more about what you are used to hearing. There are pros and cons to both, but there has been a big jump over the last few years in digital processing which has caused a few of us that used more analog to begin to mix more ITB simply because of it's easy and freedom in doing so. I think it still remains a personal preference for the most part for most of us. For me it is a combination of both depending on the genre of music and the project I am working on.
 
I honestly think it's only a matter of time before Digital processors can perfectly mimic analog. It happens with every digital technology that comes out. At first (sometimes this can take decades) it can't mimic the non-digital, but in time the technology catches up. I bet in 30 years their will be no noticeable difference in an analog compressor say, and the exact same one that is ITB.

Just my opinion.

It's happening in the film world now. It was always thought that video could NEVER mimic film or be as high quality. Now cameras like the Red 1 are almost impossible to seperate from 35mm film, especially after the video has been fully edited and processed and everything.

Interesting debate though for sure...
 
LOL, the most analogue sounding gear in my rack is a digital processor (Crane Song Hedd).

All these "analogue sounds warmer" discussions are nonsense IMO, especially in the 600$ range. Today, most analogue devices (except a handful high end devices) cannot compete with professional digital processors. Analogue gear is more "hands on", but you can also buy a gazillion of midi controllers for a few bucks and control you plugins in the same way. "Analogue is warmer" is sooooo 1996.

It's really a good idea to focus on your monitoring chain (which is definitely analogue, you have no choice) and read a little more about digital audio basics. Because digital audio can sound as warm and nice as an analogue production, and much much MUCH more.
 
A $600 isn't even going to sound that great.

I keep telling people to try the Nebula vst for analog emulation, but nobody listens to me. Smh...
 
I am a strong believer that both analogue and digital have their strengths and weaknesses.

Analogue is a not a panacea for all audio problems, despite what audio forums would let you believe, lol.

Some of the most sterile mixes I have ever received were proudly mixed on an analogue console.

Both need to be understood, selected with care and used well to get good results.

Costly, high end equipment can, when used discerningly, still add something that digital has yet to emulate.
Analogue is open to the elements, digital is closed, fixed.
 
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Departure said:
They're getting pretty damn close to analog with a lot of the plugins lately...
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I don't know if I would say "they are getting close to analog" regarding plugins...

what I would say is "plugin technology has gotten to a point where there are many excellent products out there that would suited to mix top quality records"


Departure said:
However, I'm realizing that picking up an old outboard compressor off of craigslist for $600 bucks is a much better investment than downloading some of the best plugins on the market for $500
Click to expand...

I would rather use plugins over a $600 hardware compressor any day... anything you can get for $600 is not going to be an great unit.


"analog" is not good

"good" is good.

Bad analog is worse than a plugin.

You need to look at what you are getting... the fact that something is "analog" means absolutely nothing whatsoever with regards to quality.




Departure said:
simply because of the warmth
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(this is a whole other discussion)




Departure said:
and bleed you get from analog circuitry.
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you don't get "bleed" from analogue circuitry...

"bleed" is a tape term... With multitrack audio tape, when you can hear one track on another track's channel, it is called "bleed"... tracks next to eachother can "bleed" over onto eachother...



Departure said:
However, this is completely dependent on the equipment, analog shit tends to break and get worn down, maintenance is expensive, etc.
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hardware (not necessarily "analog" hardware) can break... but your plugins will probably stop working due to their not being compatible with newer operating systems before your hardware breaks down.

...and, unless you are talking about tape machines that need to be calibrated, there is not much (if any) maintenance needed for hardware.

As long as you don't abuse your gear, you should not have a problem.




Departure said:
I've heard a lot of people saying that they prefer the sound of digital over analog lately... Anyone feel this way or care to comment? I'm interested to know why.
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Each piece of gear, whether it be hardware or software or analog or digital, has its own sound.

You need to pick the right tool for the right job.

If you know your gear well, you will know what to use when.





Departure said:
I tend to like that analog sound for some things and that cold digital sound for others.. kind of application based. What're y'alls opinions?
Click to expand...


The truth is, "analog" does not really have a "sound" and digital is not really "cold".

Most of what people say about analog/digital and cold/warmth is just out of ignorance and people talking out of their asses.
 
I prefer plug ins over hardware fx personally. Probably because I have more experience with them but while I do like being hands on I really like the sound of plug in fx.
 
I have to agree with sleepy on this one. You could spend thousands on expensive outboard gear just because you heard it sounds better, but you won't really get any advantage over mixing ITB because you have crappy converters. I can't believe how much companies are charging for this analog summing gear. Believe it or not there is cheap, poorly built analog equipment out there. Just because something says "Analog" on the box doesn't mean it will make your mix sound better. Most people that don't have a ton of money to spend on outboard gear should just invest in excellent monitors / room treatment & maybe some high end effects Plug-Ins.
I'm not saying that mixing on analog equipment is bad obviously, because when you have the right gear, it sounds excellent and way better than most ITB mixes (in my opinion).
 
to track and mix you need
knowledable audio engineer
1.great performance(artist)
2.decent mic
3.decent preamp
4.ad/da converters 24 bit (high converters even better apogee,lynx,ect..)
5.monitoring chain... uncolored as possible monitors
6.treated room
if you got these things you can use stock plugs in Cubase,Pro Tools and be fine
yeah if you can get some UAD,Waves plug bundles.. then you have to know how to use
compressor,reverb,delay plug properply and when to use them

pretty much what has been stated over and over in here


you're main outboard gear is your brain,mic,preamp,converters, monitors, in correctly measured and acoustic treated room in my opinion
 
I've been a proud user of all-digital setups since I started playing music. My guitar rig is an electric guitar going into a digital processor going into a PA. My synths are all VA or VST. All sounds very good and makes any sound that I want.

One observation: I have found that analogue gear can not only sound warmer, but it can also cut better in a live music situation. I find that a LOT of digital synthesizers lack the mid range oomph to have any presence when playing live, you have to EQ them like crazy to have any chance of being heard. One guitarist in my band uses a valve amp (analogue) and cuts through easily whereas the other guitarist uses solid state amps (digital) and can struggle to hold his own in the mix at times. Just my experience, some new digital stuff probably addresses this problem.
 
Spacebase said:
I've been a proud user of all-digital setups since I started playing music.
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Your post brings up some other things that need to be addressed....

(and the question at hand is not "analog vs digital", but rather "hardwareoutboard vs plugin")

but, anyway....

Spacebase said:
My guitar rig is an electric guitar going into a digital processor going into a PA.
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electric guitar=analog
digital processor=outboard
PA=analog

Your guitar gives you a much different result from playing guitar samples or guitar synth patches...

your outboard "digital processor" will give you a much different result than a plugin using the same algorithms... there are A/D and D/A converters, amplifiers, circuitry, etc involved that have a huge bearing on the sound...

And your PA is "analog"... much different from a "speaker simulator" you would find in a plugin...



Spacebase said:
My synths are all VA or VST. All sounds very good and makes any sound that I want.
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An outboard VA synth is quite different from a VST using even the same synthesis engine and algorithms (for the same reasons stated above)...

Even a VST based on a hardware digital synth will sound different.




Spacebase said:
One observation: I have found that analogue gear can not only sound warmer, but it can also cut better in a live music situation. I find that a LOT of digital synthesizers lack the mid range oomph to have any presence when playing live, you have to EQ them like crazy to have any chance of being heard. One guitarist in my band uses a valve amp (analogue) and cuts through easily whereas the other guitarist uses solid state amps (digital) and can struggle to hold his own in the mix at times. Just my experience, some new digital stuff probably addresses this problem.
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valve amp = uses "tubes" ("valves" are "tubes")
solid state amp = uses "transistors"

Neither is "digital"...

Both are 100% analog...
 
dvyce
just like folks say I need my beat mastered what they really want is for it to be mixed...the thing is ppl don't understand the true terms of digital,analog,outboard,itb"in the box" too much forum reading...
stating misinformation from others......
this is not rocket science but it's good to understand what sound is how is works and what tools traditional and nontraditional that is available today which can be alot to take in and learn... that why I took the advice of some and just focused on learning
traditional audio tools such as
compressor,reverb,etc...
and learning to to use stock plug-in to my advantage
 
fataltone said:
dvyce
just like folks say I need my beat mastered what they really want is for it to be mixed...the thing is ppl don't understand the true terms of digital,analog,outboard,itb"in the box" too much forum reading...
stating misinformation from others......
this is not rocket science but it's good to understand what sound is how is works and what tools traditional and nontraditional that is available today which can be alot to take in and learn... that why I took the advice of some and just focused on learning
traditional audio tools such as
compressor,reverb,etc...
and learning to to use stock plug-in to my advantage
Click to expand...


There is nothing wrong with not knowing...

I only have a problem with people not wanting to know...

(and I am not saying that Spacebase is one of those people who falls into the latter category)


That is why I simply commented on his statements without insulting him or calling him stupid or anything like that.

The worst thing he (or anybody) could possibly do is get into some professional situation (in a studio, at a gig, at a store, working with an artist, working with a producer, etc) and start saying things that make no sense.

I guarantee that person will be labeled as a joke for the rest of his life.


If you want to be in this industry, it is very important to know what you are talking about...


It is like if you worked at a bank and you started talking about mortgages and interest rates and "5/1 arm" and bonds and "the fed" and "offshore financing" and bull/bear markets, etc, etc and were just making no sense...

Or if you worked in an auto body shop and you started talking about steering columns and fuel injection and torque and headers and shocks and struts, etc, etc and were just making no sense...


It is sooooo easy to look things up these days... it is also easy to figure out which sources are reputable and which aren't...

If someone tells you something, look it up and find a reputable source confirming it.


For example, it is very easy to look up "what is a solid state guitar amp" and find plenty of information... or "solid state vs tube guitar amp" (no offense to Spacebase... I am just using this as an example)


But I cannot stress enough the importance of knowing what you are talking about in the "real world"... and I am doing my best to help spread the knowledge!

:)
 
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