Good daw to start with!

Trusty, your "value to dollar" ratio comparison is totally invalid, since what you're saying is that Sonar is more valuable because it has more value per dollar...

Nonsense. You are equivocating the word "Value" and thinking "valuable" in a different sense. I am obviously using the word "value" in the sense of bargain, not importance. Hence, your complaint is invalid and fallacious to boot.

And what is "bolted on" supposed to mean even?! Everything in FL Studio is laid out in plain view, if you say that most producers don't even bother using the step sequencer, I don't feel comfortable with you representing mine and others voice.

"Bolted on" means exactly that. It mean all its feature enhancements over the years have been tacked on haphazardly rather than integrated cohesively.

I could not possibly care less what makes you comfortable. Most people I know using FL Studio do not load a sample into the step sequencer and make beats that way anymore.

Whether or not a DAW is better than any other one is purely relative.

The word you are looking for is subjective...and I absolutely agree in some cases, and absolutely disagree in other cases.

And "Out of the Box" content (I believe you are only referring to samples, as Ableton's instruments are very good), I doubt any real professional producer uses much out of the box content coming with any DAW...it doesn't play that big of a role, what does is how the DAW serves you long term, so usability and work-flow.

Nonsense.

First, if you buy the Ableton Suite (which is incredibly overpriced for some AAS instruments re-skinned and some homegrown ones), you are buying it precisely for the purpose of using that content.

Second, the same principle would have to apply to Reason by default.

Third, I know a lot of "professional" producers (talk about subjective and equivocation...) using out of the box content that comes with their DAWs. That number goes up when you count the producers not using orchestral libraries costing thousands of dollars. And it goes up even more for people that don't have a lot of third party anything in their arsenal. That number goes higher even more when you include non-professional producers just getting started. Whether anyone, professional or otherwise, use all of it or some of it, it all finds its way into usage. This appeal to authority is a shot in the dark in your case anyway.

Fourth, content plays a huge role in your first DAW if you have little else in terms of instruments and effects. As for workflow, Ableton is nowhere near as flexible in terms of workflow, routing, etc. and Sonar. Sonar X1 makes this even more obvious with the customizable options for layout, and option Ableton doesn't even have, btw.

As a whole, I don't see any substance in your claims or argument, I say leave it the OP to decide from Demo's which DAW suites him the best.

So what? I see little substance in your feeble attempt to use amateur logic and philosophical reasoning in response to my post. I see a lot of humor in your attempt though. You must be a sophomore philosophy major. ;) I gave three reasons in my arguments of comparisons. There were no syllogisms.

Besides, the OP came asking for opinions, so I gave mine.

BTW, @ Provenza, I can't send PM's because apparently FP likes abusing new comers...but I don't use Ableton full time, I'm still very much learning it...

P.

I like Ableton for what it is, but it would not be my first recommendation to anyone looking to get started.
 
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Nonsense. You are equivocating the word "Value" and thinking "valuable" in a different sense. I am obviously using the word "value" in the sense of bargain, not importance. Hence, your complaint is invalid and fallacious to boot.

Give me a mathematical equation for calculating the value of a DAW, and then I might see how one can absolutely define which DAW is a better bargain...

"Bolted on" means exactly that. It mean all its feature enhancements over the years have been tacked on haphazardly rather than integrated cohesively.

FL Studio's features are all fully functioning, work and sound nice, and are easy to find and use. That's all that matters. I doubt you've seen their source code, in which case you can't say if "feature enhancements over the years have been tacked on haphazardly rather than integrated cohesively."
I still have no idea what you're talking about in that sense, or how you can apparently tell...

I could not possibly care less what makes you comfortable. Most people I know using FL Studio do not load a sample into the step sequencer and make beats that way anymore.

Woopty-doo, some people you know don't use it. I wouldn't use that as a representation of the whole FL Studio user demographic. It's just another tool that FL Studio offers, and doesn't take away from the DAW in any way.

The word you are looking for is subjective...and I absolutely agree in some cases, and absolutely disagree in other cases.

When I said relative, I guess I partly did mean subjective, thank you Mr. Grammar, but it is also relative to what OS you're on, and what kind of music you want to make (mainly audio, mainly MIDI, etc.)

Nonsense.

First, if you buy the Ableton Suite (which is incredibly overpriced for some AAS instruments re-skinned and some homegrown ones), you are buying it precisely for the purpose of using that content.

Second, the same principle would have to apply to Reason by default.

Third, I know a lot of "professional" producers (talk about subjective and equivocation...) using out of the box content that comes with their DAWs. That number goes up when you don't count the producers not using orchestral libraries costing thousands of dollars. And it goes up even more for people that don't have a lot of third party anything in their arsenal. That number goes higher even more when you include non-professional producers just getting started. Whether anyone, professional or otherwise, use all of it or some of it, it all finds its way into usage. This appeal to authority is a shot in the dark in your case anyway.

Fourth, content plays a huge role in your first DAW if you have little else interms of instruments and effects. As for workflow, Ableton is nowhere near as flexible in terms of workflow, routing, etc. and Sonar. Sonar X1 makes this even more obvious with the customizable options for layout, and option Ableton doesn't even have, btw.

FL Studio's routing and workflow is amazing also. Frankly, I have no experience with Sonar, so I can't directly compare it. All I know is that FL's routing has kept me pleased for quite some time now.
And no, I bought FL Studio not for the content that comes with it, but rather FL Studio itself, as in the DAW, which we are comparing, not the content with the package.
I see no point in buying a DAW package for some samples and VST's it comes with alone if you're not buying it for the program you're going to be using...
Anyways, I buy DAW's for the functionality, as I know I can get external plugin's for anything I could possibly want, and the VST community is huge.

Only thing I can agree with you is that yes, most samples that come with FL Studio are crap. On the other hand, it's synths are top notch (my favourite being Toxic Biohazard).

So what? I see little substance in your feeble attempt to use amateur logic and philosophical reasoning in response to my post. I see a lot of humor in your attempt though. You must be a sophomore philosophy major. ;) I gave three reasons in my arguments of comparisons. There were no syllogisms.

Thank you for taking the time to completely understand my post, and fully appreciate my argument. I see you not only have the magical ability to see whether or not features are "bolted on", and being able to decide the best DAW for someone else, but you can also tell my life's story from one forum post...though your prediction is wrong.

Besides, the OP came asking for opinions, so I gave mine.

Like logic7 said, you present your opinions as facts...not really fair.

I like Ableton for what it is, but it would not be my first recommendation to anyone looking to get started.

I would recommend someone to pick a DAW they're willing to stick with for a long LONG time to come. I'm finding it hard for myself to switch DAW's after I've gotten used to a certain workflow.
 
but you presented it as fact, which is a problem.

No it isn't. I presented some facts, and I presented some opinions. There is only one way to present a fact, and that is a fact.

Fact: Reason is a closed environment.

Fact: FL Studio Signature edition requires more money spent on extra stuff, regardless of what it includes, to get to the same quality of Sonar PE's included content in terms of instruments and effects. Not everything about this is subjective. Sonar's effects plug-ins are higher in quality. Sonar's instruments are higher in quality. Except for perhaps Sytrus, do you want to really debate this one?

Fact: Sonar's midi feature set is way more robust than reapers.

Fact: For the price, Sonar is a much better deal than the others.

Fact: Sonar's workflow now is more flexible and customizable, and X! makes this even better than it is now.

I can't make those "just opinions" since they are what they are. An opinion, like Live's UI looks like ass", is an obvious opinion. One shared by many people, including Live users...of which I am one. I use Live and think it looks like ass.

I can disqualify Sonar as a serious threat to FL Studio by mentioning FL's Directwave sampler... which Sonar lacks. The only DAW to include a sampler of its caliber is Logic.

Dimension Pro is an outstanding sampler, Beatscape is an outstanding sampler though underrated, and Dropzone is a decent sampler for most rudimentary sampling functions. Sonar doesn't lack a sampler...it has plenty of them.

Cakewalk "bolted on" a step sequencer to Sonar in an attempt to lure FL users away... It's kinda awkward to use... I don't like it one bit.

I think it was okay, but 2.0 is great actually. It was more embedded into the midi track rather than "bolted on" though.

I will say Sonar "bolted on" a Matrix view. :) But Skylight has made it more cohesive now.

As for FL's out of the box sounds being "garbage", again, it's purely opinion.

Yes it is an opinion, a widely held one though.

I really doubt you've sat down and listened to all of the sounds in all of the synths included with FL.

I actually have. Its one of my jobs. Read our magazine. I review these products.

Having said that, I also doubt you've auditioned every sound included with Sonar. Since neither of these events have taken place, you would hardly be qualified to speak on whether FL's sounds are "garbage".

False. You should never speculate. One does not need to preview "all" in any case, just "a lot" to get a good grasp of the overall quality. As I have been with Sonar since version 3, I am quite familiar with 99.99% of it in case you must know.

Besides... only lazy @sses rely on preset sounds. The whole point of the synths is to make your own sounds... Even if all you do is tweak the presets to tailor them to your needs you're still better off than some preset junkie that uses the same sounds every other wannabe "producer" uses.

Non-sequitur. It doesn't follow that someone is lazy because they use presets. I use presets, roll my own, tweak existing ones, etc. personally, but I would never call someone who doesn't do any of that lazy. Some people are more into composition and buying quality soundpacks from sound designers than they are into making presets. Can't knock them as being lazy for that. Not everyone wants to be a sound designer.

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

Give me a mathematical equation for calculating the value of a DAW, and then I might see how one can absolutely define which DAW is a better bargain...

That is trivially easy.

Take cost of product divided by number of features and content that scream out at you over against another product.

Next...

FL Studio's features are all fully functioning, work and sound nice, and are easy to find and use. That's all that matters. I doubt you've seen their source code, in which case you can't say if "feature enhancements over the years have been tacked on haphazardly rather than integrated cohesively."
I still have no idea what you're talking about in that sense, or how you can apparently tell...

Look at the work environment on your screen and compare it to others. This is not a new complaint against FL or anything.

In response to another post, I gave an example of Sonar "bolting on" something...the Matrix View...thankfully, Skylight solves this problem.

In any case, I never said FL doens't function. The problem is that in my opinion (<-- included to make you stop whining), it merely functions, and that's all.

Woopty-doo, some people you know don't use it. I wouldn't use that as a representation of the whole FL Studio user demographic. It's just another tool that FL Studio offers, and doesn't take away from the DAW in any way.

Well, considering the "people I know" include people on internet forums, including this one, I would say I can get a good sampling to reflect the user demographic. The issue is not whether it takes away or adds, it is how it operates in relation to every other feature in the program and how every other feature in the program operates in relation to each other and it and so on and so forth.

There are reasons why you are eying Ableton right now...

When I said relative, I guess I partly did mean subjective, thank you Mr. Grammar, but it is also relative to what OS you're on, and what kind of music you want to make (mainly audio, mainly MIDI, etc.)

Not Mr. Grammar, Mr. Dictionary. Again, you fail. :0

Seriously, lighten up man, this is just the internet.

Anyway, your point is taken, which is why I did not bother with Logic to Sonar comparisons as the OP is on PC. In any case, Sonar has all those covered in ace fashion.

FL Studio's routing and workflow is amazing also. Frankly, I have no experience with Sonar, so I can't directly compare it. All I know is that FL's routing has kept me pleased for quite some time now.
And no, I bought FL Studio not for the content that comes with it, but rather FL Studio itself, as in the DAW, which we are comparing, not the content with the package.

1. The content is part of the DAW. Why you bought something may not be why someone like the OP just starting out will buy something.

2. I never said "FL Studio sucks". I said Sonar is better. The only two things on there that I consider to suck is Reaper and Cubarse. I like Reason, I like Live (except it looks like ass in my opinion), but I think Sonar is a much smoother product, a much better product, and that the X1 takes it to a whole other level. And for the price, FL Studio should not even be a serious option anymore unless they drastically reduce the price or add more of their other stuff to it (Toxic, Sawer, Morphine, their maximizer, etc.)

I see no point in buying a DAW package for some samples and VST's it comes with alone if you're not buying it for the program you're going to be using...

I agree. But Sonar just happens to be an awesome DAW with the added benefit of having higher quality content than the others, especially for the price.


Anyways, I buy DAW's for the functionality, as I know I can get external plugin's for anything I could possibly want, and the VST community is huge.

True enough. However, if you aren't spending thousands up front, and you aren't a pirating jackass, you may want to look at workflow, functionality and content to get going off the bat. Sonar wins on all counts over FL Studio, Live, Reaper, and Reason + Record...in my opinion. Especially since X1 lets the user define the workflow with all the tools one could possibly ask for, which means they can also customize it to leave out the unneeded as well.

Only thing I can agree with you is that yes, most samples that come with FL Studio are crap. On the other hand, it's synths are top notch (my favourite being Toxic Biohazard).

That is my favorite IL instrument as well...and if FL cleaned up their workspace, and added Toxic and the other stuff to the Signature package for a similar price range to Sonar X1, my evaluation for the OP's needs would probably have been much different, or at least less lopsided...

...but as it stands now...

Thank you for taking the time to completely understand my post, and fully appreciate my argument.

I did both understand and appropriate your argument, I did not, however, find much to agree with in it. Disagreeing is not the same thing as not understanding.

I see you not only have the magical ability to see whether or not features are "bolted on", and being able to decide the best DAW for someone else, but you can also tell my life's story from one forum post...though your prediction is wrong.

Whine to a therapist about it homey. :)

It isn't a magical ability, it is right there on the screen and how it all works together in a convoluted, haphazard way. It is what it is, and I'm not the only one that sees it that way.


Like logic7 said, you present your opinions as facts...not really fair.

The facts are facts, and the opinions are opinions, and the critical thinker can determine the difference. The things that are facts can not be presented as anything else though.

I have no idea about complaints regarding "fairness", that is butthurt language for the internet.


I would recommend someone to pick a DAW they're willing to stick with for a long LONG time to come. I'm finding it hard for myself to switch DAW's after I've gotten used to a certain workflow.

I can agree and disagree with that on certain levels. As you yourself are eying Ableton, I think you understand why one can disagree and agree. It is not a contradiction, as that would mean same time/same sense. I agree and disagree at the same time, but not in the same sense, thus no contradiction.

I agree that finding something that works and sticking with what works is a good and solid long term plan, but I disagree if you find something that serves other needs or works better than what you have. So in a sense, stick to what works until it doesn't, or at least until it doesn't work entirely on its own.

I have Live for live, and Sonar for the studio. That works.
 
See? Adding "in my opinion" and laying back a bit on your battle stance for Sonar doesn't make you sound like such an ******* anymore :)

Your previous response didn't really show "understanding", it just showed patronization and a whole "I know better than you" attitude...whatever, that's for my therapist to hear about...

btw, only reason I'm switching to Live is because FL has a half-assed implementation of a "Live Mode"...
(How in the world do you manage switching a studio song to a Live song then?)(Assuming you perform album tracks, and not on-the-go/improv)

As for your facts, some of them are still opinion...number of features isn't as important as what features and how good the features are...

FL Studio Techno kiddies have given it such a bad rep I feel it's part of my duty to at least stick up for it when someone doesn't give good reasons for saying it isn't good/it isn't as good as something else. As it stands now, you showed more of your reasoning, and actually gave more examples rather than empty statements/opinions...

...ANYWHO, at last I think that at last we've finally come to the agreement that ducks too, can be considered birds.

P.
 
See? Adding "in my opinion" and laying back a bit on your battle stance for Sonar doesn't make you sound like such an ******* anymore :)

Thanks, I will be sure to remove it in further posts. ;)

Your previous response didn't really show "understanding", it just showed patronization and a whole "I know better than you" attitude...whatever, that's for my therapist to hear about...


Patronization? No. I know better than you attitude? Absolutely. For your therapist? Absolutely.

btw, only reason I'm switching to Live is because FL has a half-assed implementation of a "Live Mode"...
(How in the world do you manage switching a studio song to a Live song then?)(Assuming you perform album tracks, and not on-the-go/improv)

I feel that everything in FL has seemed half-assed in implementation since version 4, so we at least agree on one instance. I wish Gol would take what he has learned over the years and start from scratch on something new rather than "bolting on" more and more features haphazardly as it goes on.

As for your facts, some of them are still opinion...number of features isn't as important as what features and how good the features are...

Hence, I said features that "scream out at you"...one must demo to see if one's excitement about it is confirmed or not in terms of whether or not it is "good", that should go without saying.

FL Studio Techno kiddies have given it such a bad rep I feel it's part of my duty to at least stick up for it when someone doesn't give good reasons for saying it isn't good/it isn't as good as something else.

Like the other guy that disagreed, I will as well. It isn't the "Techno kiddies" that gave it a bad rep, it is the "I'ma Produusa" crowd of hip-hop kiddies (some of which are my age..i.e. thirties) that drag it down...and many of them won't even pay for it (including the ones in their thirties).

I stick up for FL Studio from time to time as well. I don't hate it, but I don't think it competes with Sonar, especially now.

As it stands now, you showed more of your reasoning, and actually gave more examples rather than empty statements/opinions...

...ANYWHO, at last I think that at last we've finally come to the agreement that ducks too, can be considered birds.

P.

We can move into feature to feature, instrument to instrument, effect to effect, and sample to sample comparisons and do the whole spectrum if you want...

...or we can leave it at my overall impressions, which can easily be backed up, as you just pointed out, by my further examples, which, in turn, indeed serve to reinforce my overall impressions...which is why I let them stand unqualified until asked for more detail.

As long as you understand one thing:

In the end, I am almost (<-- added for humility) always right about everything.

;)
 
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Here, "imma produsa" kiddies, NG, "Techno Kiddies"...now there's 2 freaking websites breeding these things...
 
Here, "imma produsa" kiddies, NG, "Techno Kiddies"...now there's 2 freaking websites breeding these things...

Yep.

Which is why I prefer KVR.

I do think that the rep FL gets from those people are unwarranted, but I am just having a hard time recommending FL anyway because of other reasons.

I recommend Sonar for most people these days, and for good reasons.

I occasionally recommend Reason and Record for people who need the simplicity, with a bit of depth, that doesn't go overboard or get convoluted.

Though, these days, with Maschine and Geist, it is hard to recommend anything else to people that "just want to make beats easily" and care not a bit for everything else involved, whether the beats are mainly sample based or, in the case with the soon to be improved Maschine, sample and instrument/VST based.

Reason and Record is a great combo, don't get me wrong, but it's closed environment and lack of certain crucial tools keeps it lagging in certain areas. But, if those certain areas will never matter to certain people, I have no problem recommending it.

I recommend Live for people that leave their bedrooms, regardless of what else they have. I love it for using live. Wouldn't use anything else at the moment...despite my thinking it is ugly to look at. But it comes with a warning that though there is improvement seeing the light of day lately, the last two years have been rough for stability. Ableton admitted as much, so this wasn't simply my opinion either. I've had no problems running 8.2.1 so far, for anyone interested.

I never recommend Cubarse, and I am admittedly unqualified to recommend Logic. I don't run Macs, and have only messed with it a handful of times elsewhere...it looks like a great package though.
 
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No it isn't. I presented some facts, and I presented some opinions. There is only one way to present a fact, and that is a fact.

Fact: Reason is a closed environment.

I should have been specific: I was referring specifically to FL Studio. We can agree that Reason is a closed environment.

Fact: FL Studio Signature edition requires more money spent on extra stuff, regardless of what it includes, to get to the same quality of Sonar PE's included content in terms of instruments and effects. Not everything about this is subjective. Sonar's effects plug-ins are higher in quality. Sonar's instruments are higher in quality. Except for perhaps Sytrus, do you want to really debate this one?

a lot of this just means that the individual using them doesn't know how to extract the best from the included FL plugins.

Dimension Pro is an outstanding sampler, Beatscape is an outstanding sampler though underrated, and Dropzone is a decent sampler for most rudimentary sampling functions. Sonar doesn't lack a sampler...it has plenty of them.

Dimension Pro, in truth, pales as a sampler/playback unit when compared to Directwave. Directwave can load complete sample/patch data in the following formats:

AKAI AKP (S5/6K,Z4,Z8)
Battery (Version 1, 2 & 3 banks)
DWP (DirectWave Program, native format)
Apple/Emagic EXS24
Giga
Kontakt / Kontakt 2
Kurzweil (off DOS disk)
MPC (off DOS disk, not 1000/2500/500 series)
Reason NN-XT (any association with a Refill can't be loaded)
Recycle
SoundFont2
SFZ

It can also sample the output of any plugin being played in FL Studio at any given point in time. Couple this with the -included- Edison audio editor and you have a much more complete sampler than Dimension Pro.

Dropzone compares directly to FL's old as dirt "FL Sampler" plugin. They're pretty evenly matched.

I haven't seen anything that Beatscape does that FL's FPC can't do. They're also pretty evenly matched.

Don't get me wrong, I have owned Sonar from 2 all the way to 7, and I REALLY like some of it's plugins, but I still have a preference for FL's stuff (maybe it's just the old analog guy in me).

As a side note, there's entirely too many outstanding free plugins out there if you really want to augment FL's Signature Bundle without spending a dime.


False. You should never speculate. One does not need to preview "all" in any case, just "a lot" to get a good grasp of the overall quality. As I have been with Sonar since version 3, I am quite familiar with 99.99% of it in case you must know.

nice, and I've been a Sonar owner since 2 (on Win98SE no less), prior to that a CWPA owner from 5-9.



Non-sequitur. It doesn't follow that someone is lazy because they use presets. I use presets, roll my own, tweak existing ones, etc. personally, but I would never call someone who doesn't do any of that lazy. Some people are more into composition and buying quality soundpacks from sound designers than they are into making presets. Can't knock them as being lazy for that. Not everyone wants to be a sound designer.

You can't really say that something is of low quality when you never take the time to dive into it to see what can be extracted from it. The average person will hear a gang of presets, think something is trash, and skip past that plugin without ever taking the time to fully explore it.

Also... See my above note about Directwave. You can't really go wrong when you have the ability to add Kurzweil's sample library to your collection... Plus Akai's... And EXS24... and Giga.
 
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I recommend Acid Pro. Try the 45 day trial period. Use it for each of the 45 days and learn it, as with any multitrack software. Ittl take you no longer than 30 days to get comfortable with ANY software.

If you don't like spending time to learn and want to jump right into making music, get FL.
 
I should have been specific: I was referring specifically to FL Studio. We can agree that Reason is a closed environment.

Uh-huh.

a lot of this just means that the individual using them doesn't know how to extract the best from the included FL plugins.

Nonsense. SimSynth Live and DX10 aren't instruments that people get hype for. Sorry...


Dimension Pro, in truth, pales as a sampler/playback unit when compared to Directwave. Directwave can load complete sample/patch data in the following formats:

AKAI AKP (S5/6K,Z4,Z8)
Battery (Version 1, 2 & 3 banks)
DWP (DirectWave Program, native format)
Apple/Emagic EXS24
Giga
Kontakt / Kontakt 2
Kurzweil (off DOS disk)
MPC (off DOS disk, not 1000/2500/500 series)
Reason NN-XT (any association with a Refill can't be loaded)
Recycle
SoundFont2
SFZ

So what? What it can load is not the same thing as how good it is as an instrument. And besides, if you want to use it as a "rompler" in this case, the sounds for Dimension Pro far outshine what Directwave has included. Thus, you are looking at spending more money already to feed Directwave with a decent library. A major point I am making.

It can also sample the output of any plugin being played in FL Studio at any given point in time. Couple this with the -included- Edison audio editor and you have a much more complete sampler than Dimension Pro.

Agreed. Again, how does this make FL Studio better than Sonar again?

Dropzone compares directly to FL's old as dirt "FL Sampler" plugin. They're pretty evenly matched.

Could that load REX? I don't think it could.

I haven't seen anything that Beatscape does that FL's FPC can't do. They're also pretty evenly matched.

No. Beatscape isn't a drum sampler (granting FPC can be used for other things). Beatscape can slice and dice and has a very good arsenal of effects on board. Can't say that about FPC, you need SliceX for that, and Beatscape has all that aforementioned stuff x16.

Don't get me wrong, I have owned Sonar from 2 all the way to 7, and I REALLY like some of it's plugins, but I still have a preference for FL's stuff (maybe it's just the old analog guy in me).

What is particularly analog about anything other than Wasp XT that comes with it you don't have to buy extra? Please don't say anything from Synthmaker... :)

As a side note, there's entirely too many outstanding free plugins out there if you really want to augment FL's Signature Bundle without spending a dime.

I hear this claim all the time, and I ain't buying it. There are a few, not "too many".

nice, and I've been a Sonar owner since 2 (on Win98SE no less), prior to that a CWPA owner from 5-9.

I had CWPA 9 too! lol Them was the days...

You can't really say that something is of low quality when you never take the time to dive into it to see what can be extracted from it. The average person will hear a gang of presets, think something is trash, and skip past that plugin without ever taking the time to fully explore it.

To be fair, programming anything on FL Studio is not terribly difficult. We aren't talking Alchemy or Omnisphere here. Besides, presets are specifically designed to show off the instrument, so this complaint doesn't really work. And yes, side by side, the quality of Cakewalk's instruments are way ahead of FL's included content. Sytrus and Directwave, so far, is the only thing included in FL that is worth talking about so far.

Also... See my above note about Directwave. You can't really go wrong when you have the ability to add Kurzweil's sample library to your collection... Plus Akai's... And EXS24... and Giga.

Yeah, but we are now back to spending more $$$ again...besides, there are plenty of great libraries in SFZ format or Dimension Pro prog. format out there made by the same people that make libraries for Kontakt, Reason, etc. The difference, before you spend that, Cakewalk loads you up with great stuff out of the box.

:cheers:
 
Uh-huh.



Nonsense. SimSynth Live and DX10 aren't instruments that people get hype for. Sorry...

their loss.


So what? What it can load is not the same thing as how good it is as an instrument. And besides, if you want to use it as a "rompler" in this case, the sounds for Dimension Pro far outshine what Directwave has included. Thus, you are looking at spending more money already to feed Directwave with a decent library. A major point I am making.

the point here is that, while Dimension is a sample playback device, Directwave is a true sampler... You know... like an Akai S1000. A device that record, manipulate, and playback sounds? Truth be told, Dimension Pro is just a rompler.

Could that load REX? I don't think it could.

I'll double check when I get home, but IIRC, it can load REX and Acid files, complete with loop points.

No. Beatscape isn't a drum sampler (granting FPC can be used for other things). Beatscape can slice and dice and has a very good arsenal of effects on board. Can't say that about FPC, you need SliceX for that, and Beatscape has all that aforementioned stuff x16.

You don't need SliceX at all, FL Slicer does the job nicely as does Edison. Plus, since you can send each pad's output to its own mixer channel, you can utilize the fx and routing options offered there. No need for FPC to have it's own fx when the app on a whole has them available.

What is particularly analog about anything other than Wasp XT that comes with it you don't have to buy extra? Please don't say anything from Synthmaker... :)

Anything from Synthmaker. Take the time to build whatever you desire with it. Most people don't get into it, but it's fascinating to me... and it's something else Sonar doesn't have.

When I said that, what I meant is I come from back in the days when guys programmed synths. I've owned a number of analog boards over the years and, to me, it seems a bit foolish not to be able to program your synths.


To be fair, programming anything on FL Studio is not terribly difficult. We aren't talking Alchemy or Omnisphere here. Besides, presets are specifically designed to show off the instrument, so this complaint doesn't really work. And yes, side by side, the quality of Cakewalk's instruments are way ahead of FL's included content. Sytrus and Directwave, so far, is the only thing included in FL that is worth talking about so far.

FL Layer + 3XOSC+creative programming = some amazing results.

One of the things I like about Sytrus is it's ability to import DX7 sysex data directly. I have a huge library of those sounds from my old TX7 and I manage to sneak at least one into a lot of my electronic music.


:cheers:
 
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their loss.

Er...not really. :)

the point here is that, while Dimension is a sample playback device, Directwave is a true sampler... You know... like an Akai S1000. A device that record, manipulate, and playback sounds? Truth be told, Dimension Pro is just a rompler.

Dimension Pro is way more than a Rompler. It is one of the best and cleanest sample-synthesizer engines out there at just about any sample rate and instantly mapping oneshots. Directwave can't touch it in terms of what Dimension Pro can do with samples using the Expression Engine and the EGs. Directwave's parameters are fairly basic.

But Dimension Pro isn't designed to be like Directwave.

Like Ableton, in Sonar you can drag recorded audio directly into various VSTs or the Matrix like Live can drag audio to clips, drum racks, Simpler, etc...and directly sampling into a VST is quite overrated. Having used Geist, EmulatorX, Morgana...it is cool and about as quick as what I described for Live and Sonar, don't get me wrong, but not "necessary". Of all the reasons to get FL Studio, Directwave isn't one of them, and it isn't really all that popular of a choice for most non-IL customers either, who do in fact buy stuff like Dimension Pro, Wusikstation (which samples directly in some hosts actually), and/or Kontakt, etc.

I'll double check when I get home, but IIRC, it can load REX and Acid files, complete with loop points.

Indeed it can! Must have been added along the way.

You don't need SliceX at all, FL Slicer does the job nicely as does Edison. Plus, since you can send each pad's output to its own mixer channel, you can utilize the fx and routing options offered there. No need for FPC to have it's own fx when the app on a whole has them available.

SliceX > FL SLicer

I really liked SliceX, reminds me of Intakt (a great sampler NI should never have stopped supporting, as many people don't need or want Kontakt's library or full range of features). It is highly usable and straight to the point.

True about multiple outputs and host effects...but Beatscape's onboard effects using SG's is a real winner...plus, it can be used in any DAW, not simply Sonar. You have to pay extra to get the non-FL version of SliceX and Edison, right?

Anything from Synthmaker. Take the time to build whatever you desire with it. Most people don't get into it, but it's fascinating to me... and it's something else Sonar doesn't have.

I think Synthmaker is garbage. I've heard little good made with it, though it is slightly better than Synth Edit (and the only good SE stuff are usually custom modules made by people that don't share their goodies). Sonar doesn't need Synthmaker...and it isn't worth having. M4L is worth having, but Ableton has never needed it either.

Again, Synthmaker is not a reason to get FL Studio...Synthmaker is hardly worth the $255/$133 they want for the non-FL version of it either.

FTR, I have Reaktor5 on my computer (because it is worth having).

When I said that, what I meant is I come from back in the days when guys programmed synths. I've owned a number of analog boards over the years and, to me, it seems a bit foolish not to be able to program your synths.

Depends on the musician. It is not foolish to let people better than you to program sounds you'll use and compensate them for it. It is no different than me outsourcing a guitarist to lay down what I want rather than use my shoddy skills to play the part.

I do agree people ought to try learning how to (learning is good and makes one less dependent on others), but it is hardly foolish to not do something one doesn't care about doing, even "needs" to do, or is willing to allows others with more talent do for them. I think rather than foolish, it is actually smart.

FL Layer + 3XOSC+creative programming = some amazing results.

One of the things I like about Sytrus is it's ability to import DX7 sysex data directly. I have a huge library of those sounds from my old TX7 and I manage to sneak at least one into a lot of my electronic music.


:cheers:

Creatively programming z3ta+ or Pentagon I = amazing results without needing assistance. ;) It is also rather nice that modern computers have caught up to their maximum power without dragging the CPU down...lol

I like Sytrus though (hasn't held up as well as z3ta+ I would say), but I prefer Toxic Biohazard to it though.

Happy Thanksgiving.
 
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I'm sorry, but Sonar X1 is the baddest thing out there, or will be when it comes out. Especially on PC. For everything the producer version will have packed in it, it can't be beat.

Go ahead and buy Sonar 8.5 PE, as the upgrade to X1 will be free anyway.

Why it beats FL Studio:

1. Out of the box, the sounds are garbage. Sonar has all the right instruments, sound content, effects, and so forth to make those great sounding drums and melodies in your head be delivered with a high quality sound.

2. The workflow is convoluted, as everything in it "that any other DAW has" is "bolted on" around the step sequencer, which relatively few FL Studio users even bother using anymore.

3. FL Studio is still way overpriced in the long run, even for the Signature Edition and lifetime updates. The reason is because even to get it close to Sonar's value per dollar ratio, you'd end up spending several hundred dollars more in the Image-Line shop or elsewhere to get the same quality Sonar PE has shipped in the box.

Why it is better than Reason + Record for the same money:

1. Once you get Reason and Record, you are stuck living in that environment and enslaved to Propellerheads' development cycle for anything new other than refills to feed the same old stuff.

2. Sonar is open (like everything else besides Reason), so you can add on according to taste. Even for people using Reason and VSTs in other hosts, the VAST majority of them find better sounds and instruments and effects elsewhere in the VST world, and eventually drop Reason along the way anyway when they've moved on to other things where they should have started in the first place. Look at all the Reason heads that still wish it had VST support for further evidence.

3. Record is too new and too incomplete to compete in the DAW recording, mixing department.

Why it is better than Ableton Live:

1. It is about the same price if not less in some cases, and comes with so much more and of higher quality in terms of out of the box content.

2. Live's UI will always be ass no matter how fun the program is, but Sonar has consistently gotten better over the years while Live still looks like ass. With Skylight, Sonar's workflow and UI has gone through the roof in terms of usability, customization, and workflow. Live's screen interface, where it is either session or arrangement view but never both at the same time has been a hassle for years, and an ignored fix by the Ableton team since its inception. Sonar has never had this problem of not being able to see what you want, and the new Skylight takes this flexibility to a whole other level. People harp how good Ableton's workflow is all the time, but for new users that haven't been with it since at least version 3 or 4 have a hard time getting on with it, especially if they come from a composition/musician background rather than a DJ one...generally speaking of course. Sonar is designed for musicians and engineers, but it's live capabilities have vastly improved and it can now be a blank slate customized however one wishes to use it.

3. The stable-ness and customer support for Live has gone way down the toilet in recent years while Cakewalk's has always been top notch on both counts for the vast majority of users.

Live is a great program, and I do use it for certain things, especially for doing actual "live" stuff and for some good sample-based beat-making (though Geist is doing the job nicely in its place since it came out), but for serious production and studio work, I look to Sonar, and I wish Live would refocus its efforts on being a "live" performance host and quit trying to be a jack of all trades, master of few.

Why it is better than Reaper:

1. It has way more features and content.

2. It is easier to use for actually composing music, where Reaper still lags in midi.

3. Reaper has a serious "boring" factor to it for the most part. (This is my opinion though) There is little about it to get excited over it unless you are one of the Reaper zealot crowd that thinks it is awesome because it is "cheap" and "open" or whatever. Don't be fooled by the zealots, it offers little to the market, no offense to Reaper heads.

Why it is better than Cubarse:

1. Cubarse is overpriced garbage for software snobs. Enough said.

Seriously, if you are on PC, Cakewalk is who you should turn to in order to get started with everything you will need, very quickly, and for a great price.

Flame on!

Dam man your right about everything you said. From one Sonar user to another great post!
 
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